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aerdingus
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Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 5:52 pm

Hi all,

for my French cultural studies assignment I have to compare a French item & an Irish item. Naturally I wanted to do AF & EI, but when I said this to my teacher, she was a bit unsure if they were still technically "French" because of the KL merger. I looked up on Wikipedia, & it said that AF/KL is incorporated under French law. Of course, I don't want to rely on just Wikipedia. Anyone have any ideas?

Thanks.
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YYZatcboy
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:05 pm

HQ is at CDG IIRC, so I'd say it's still French. (Though I'd still say that KLM is dutch :P)
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kaitak
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:11 pm

Moulin Rouge, Folies Bergeres and other naughty French words!

It is absolutement Francais! AF bought KL, rather than the other way around.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:19 pm

Merci beaucoup lads!
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sw733
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:21 pm

Rude crews

Late flights

Indifferent attitude of ground staff

Of course they're French!

  
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:25 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 4):

Rude crews

Late flights

Indifferent attitude of ground staff

Of course they're French!

Oh dear.....
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sw733
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:28 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Reply 5):
Oh dear.....

Ah come on someone had to say it!

In reality, I've had pleasant experiences with Air France for the most part.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:30 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
Ah come on someone had to say it!

  

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
In reality, I've had pleasant experiences with Air France for the most part.

Trés bien, I haven't...yet...
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andz
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 6:32 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 4):
Rude crews

Late flights

Indifferent attitude of ground staff

Of course they're French!


Respect! I will never fly AF for fear of finding out.
After Monday and Tuesday even the calendar says WTF...
 
skyone
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:33 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 4):
Rude crews

Late flights

Indifferent attitude of ground staff

Of course they're French!

LOL, hahaha, Excelent post!!! Made me laugh ...
 
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solnabo
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:45 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 4):

Rude crews

Late flights

Indifferent attitude of ground staff

Of course they're French!

Yoy forgot a tres important thing - Dirty planes

 
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mozart
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:55 pm

They're oh so French, with strikes, unions ruling the show, state intervention, corruption at the top, etc. The whole thing.
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 7:57 pm

Merde, I didn't mean for this to turn into an AF bashin thread.....  

Thanks go to the constructive answerers....YYZatcboy & Kaitak  
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bueb0g
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:09 pm

haha, hilarious thread this one, thanks guys ^^
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breiz
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:18 pm

Air France is now part of the AirFrance-KLM group which owns two merged separated (!) airlines AF and KL.
The group is listed at the Paris stock exchange and its headquarters are in Paris, same place as Air France.
It can therefore be regarded as French.
http://www.airfranceklm-finance.com/legal-information.html
 
sw733
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 8:28 pm

Quoting mozart (Reply 11):

They're oh so French, with strikes, unions ruling the show, state intervention, corruption at the top, etc. The whole thing.


You could say the same about UA being a Chicago company  
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:11 pm

Quoting breiz (Reply 14):

Air France is now part of the AirFrance-KLM group which owns two merged separated (!) airlines AF and KL.
The group is listed at the Paris stock exchange and its headquarters are in Paris, same place as Air France.
It can therefore be regarded as French.

Thanks very much for that informative & concise answer.
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vv701
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:15 pm

AF flies on international routes not yet covered by an EU negotiated agreement under bilateral agreements negotiated by the French government. Invariably these agreements permit the operation of FRENCH airlines together with those of the nationality of the other signatory to the agreement. A similar situation applies to KL that operates under the authorisation of either the EU or the Dutch government and is a Dutch subsidiary of the French AF/KL Group just as AF is a French subsidiary of the same group in which the French government is a minority shareholder.
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:22 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
Quoting aerdingus (Reply 5):
Oh dear.....

Ah come on someone had to say it!

In reality, I've had pleasant experiences with Air France for the most part.

I agree. AF is at least as good as other major European carriers. The only negative is CDG which isn't my preferred hub but it's not as bad as it used to be. I also refuse to fly on AF 777s due to their 10-abreast seating but otherwise, especially for flights within Europe, it's among my favorite carriers.
 
Mir
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:42 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Thread starter):
Is Air France French?

Is the Pope Catholic?  

Yes, AF is still very much French, even if they have swallowed up KLM. Same way that Lufthansa is still a German airline, even if they have been taking over various airlines of various neighboring countries (don't mention the war....    )

If you wanted to, you could even explore as part of your paper how the relationship of AF and KL is just part of the new reality of Europe - that the elimination of many national barriers has made it easier for companies to establish themselves in more than one country. Technically, Ryanair is an Irish carrier, but they have so many routes that don't even touch Ireland that it's hard for me to identify them with one particular country. Whereas if you get on an Air France flight, chances are pretty good that you're going to France.

Of course, that's more of a sociological issue than a language/culture issue, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

-Mir
7 billion, one nation, imagination...it's a beautiful day
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 9:48 pm

Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
A similar situation applies to KL that operates under the authorisation of either the EU or the Dutch government and is a Dutch subsidiary of the French AF/KL Group just as AF is a French subsidiary of the same group in which the French government is a minority shareholder.

Thanks for that.

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 18):
especially for flights within Europe, it's among my favorite carriers.

I am yet to try it!

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
Is the Pope Catholic?  

  

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
If you wanted to, you could even explore as part of your paper how the relationship of AF and KL is just part of the new reality of Europe - that the elimination of many national barriers has made it easier for companies to establish themselves in more than one country. Technically, Ryanair is an Irish carrier, but they have so many routes that don't even touch Ireland that it's hard for me to identify them with one particular country. Whereas if you get on an Air France flight, chances are pretty good that you're going to France.

Of course, that's more of a sociological issue than a language/culture issue, but I just thought I'd throw it out there.

Aw it's only a very basic project, but thanks for the thought! Very true though what you are saying, FR are synonymous with being almost European, rather than Irish, even though they all fly the harp & tricolour.
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bluejuice
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:27 pm

Their planes don't shower either:

  
 
jgw787
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:39 pm

I would think so. KL and AF aren't like other airlines that merge. They have separate brands and products (probably cause France doesnt want a national airlines with the name Royal Dutch Airlines and vice versa)
 
n9801f
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:43 pm

Quoting aerdingus (Thread starter):
Anyone have any ideas?

While AF may be 'French' in many ways, if the spirit of the assignment is to compare something that is typical or archetypical, then you might want to avoid AF.

Major multi-national corporations (a la AF, EI, JL, SA)">DL, SA, LA, etc.) are somewhat homogeneous because they conform to global standards. So they might not make the most interesting possible case studies.

Perhaps you could compare Guinness Stout and French Champagne instead???
 
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Aesma
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RE: Is Air France French?

Mon Mar 07, 2011 10:46 pm

I was gonna say the exact same thing as n9801f, I don't think comparing airlines will work. And it's not just that they're big multinational companies, but they also have to follow the same very strict rules, use the same planes, etc.
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goblin211
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:18 am

Quoting BlueJuice (Reply 21):
Their planes don't shower either:

I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults. Personally, i think AF needs to take better care of their planes though it's a little embarrassing.
From the airport with love
 
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Aesma
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:27 am

Better a dirty plane than one with a hole in it !

Happy ?
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kanban
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:29 am

Quoting breiz (Reply 14):
The group is listed at the Paris stock exchange

it's also listed on two German exchanges ... so does that make it German????
 
Numero4
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:30 am

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 25):
I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults.

As a French-Canadian having lived for over two years in the US, I got my share of French bashing in the past. Even though most of it didn't really apply to me, I noticed that it's a socially acceptable thing to do - in the US at least. People would even do it in my own face and expect me to join the laugh.

Although I do agree too many French complain too much about too many things, talk too loud and have other disagreeable traits, we could find many things to say about the Germans, British and Americans. The fun doesn't last long and at one moment one has to think about respecting other people.

Maybe the reason why no French people came back to these insults is probably because it'd be too easy to say something rude about Americans, Irish or Mexicans?

...

and AF really should clean their aircraft  

Cheers,
Etienne
CYQB
 
TGV
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 6:26 am

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 25):
I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults.

It is because all of us who are not striking are in vacations, and therefore nobody from France has read this thread.
 
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odafz
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 7:41 am

and because the French would never fall to the lower standards that some have demonstrated here.

I got extremely pleasant flights flying numerous times Air France on their ATH-CDG-ATH , and their aircraft were always very clean.

having said that the choice of comparing two airlines companies whose all philosophy, operations are different would not be the wisest choice, but for example comparing Roquefort to Kerry Gold would be more appropriate.

Anyway good luck with your assignment.
 
AnsettB727
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 8:17 am

AF is not French, nor is it Dutch. It's European. Let's face it, this is the way many airlines in Europe are going to survive, by becoming pan-geographic and cross-cultural institutions.
 
alwaysontherun
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:37 am

Quoting Numero4 (Reply 28):
Quoting goblin211 (Reply 25):
I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults.

As a French-Canadian having lived for over two years in the US, I got my share of French bashing in the past. Even though most of it didn't really apply to me, I noticed that it's a socially acceptable thing to do - in the US at least. People would even do it in my own face and expect me to join the laugh.

Although I do agree too many French complain too much about too many things, talk too loud and have other disagreeable traits, we could find many things to say about the Germans, British and Americans. The fun doesn't last long and at one moment one has to think about respecting other people.

Maybe the reason why no French people came back to these insults is probably because it'd be too easy to say something rude about Americans, Irish or Mexicans?

...

and AF really should clean their aircraft  

Cheers,
Etienne

Great post!!
Cans of worms......


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sebolino
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:45 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
Quoting aerdingus (Reply 5):
Oh dear.....

Ah come on someone had to say it!

You forgot - dirty planes  



In reality, I've had pleasant experiences with Air France for the most part.




Oh , I'm not the fisrt to think about it. Of course ...  Smile

[Edited 2011-03-08 01:46:36]
 
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sebolino
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 9:52 am

Quoting Numero4 (Reply 28):
Although I do agree too many French complain too much about too many things, talk too loud and have other disagreeable traits

Talk too loud ?
Then you should hear American tourists in France ! They must be so proud of their nationality that they shout all the time.  
 
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sebolino
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:00 am

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 25):
I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults.

Why should anyone take that personally ? It's so easy to bash on internet, really ... And after the Iraq war episode, I guess there's not much to be offended about anymore. We have heard trully everything.
The only "problem" about that, is that it has been so used that it's really hard to find a fresh new joke about the French.
 
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 10:43 am

My impression is that Air France used to be more "French" than it is now. There used to be much more of a push to speak French internally and with customers; now, much of the company speaks English due to the presence of KLM and Delta colleagues at any point in time. Becoming a global carrier often involves giving up a part of your "nationality"; you have to be able to respond to millions of people in their language and provide a product that is appealing around the world. Even at CDG, I find that almost everyone at AF speaks English these days and is almost cheerful about doing so. That doesn't make the company less French legally, but it does give them more of a global face in front of the customer, whose trip often has nothing to do with France or speaking French except for their connection at CDG airport.
 
GLA MD11
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 11:31 am

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 25):
I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults. Personally, i think AF needs to take better care of their planes though it's a little embarrassing.

Smart thing is not to respond but to suggest deletion...
 
Delboy
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 12:14 pm

Look at the aircraft, if the undercarriage and under wings are covered in hair, then they are definately French!
 
vv701
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 1:29 pm

Quoting jgw787 (Reply 22):
I would think so. KL and AF aren't like other airlines that merge.

KL and AF are exactly like all international airlines that merge when both the airlines involved come from different countries.

So they are exactly like IAG, i.e. BA and IB. They are also exactly like the Lufthansa group, i.e, LH, BD, LX, OE and SN.

They are not like airlines of the same nationality that merge. So NW disappeared when taken over by DL and British United, British Caledonian, British European Airways, British Overseas Airways Corporation and Dan-Air all disappeared when merged into BA.

I have already explained why airlines domiciled in diffewrent countries need to retain their national identities:
Quoting VV701 (Reply 17):
AF flies on international routes not yet covered by an EU negotiated agreement under bilateral agreements negotiated by the French government. Invariably these agreements permit the operation of FRENCH airlines together with those of the nationality of the other signatory to the agreement. A similar situation applies to KL that operates under the authorisation of either the EU or the Dutch government.

If KL had been absorbed into AF and ceased to operate as KL then it would no longer have benn able to operate on all of those non-EU international routes where the authority to operate was determined by a bilateral agreement between the Dutch and another government. It would only have been able to continue to operaqte internationally within the EU and to the relatively small number of admittedly very important countries which have an bilateral agreement negotiated with the EU.

So a rule of thumb is if two international airlines merge and they are of the same nationality, one will disappear. But if they are of different nationalities both will continue to operate with their pre-merger identities unchanged.
 
jonwait
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:18 pm

interestin topic.

I'll have my little say on it.

Air France is nothing EU, and 95% French i'd say.
What, we, and you, passengers see of Air France ? Cabin crew.
All Cabin Crew in Air France ar French because of the crisis the hiring process stopped after the EU OPS became active in July 2007. The EU OPS brought a common european license for cabin crew, allowing them to work in any airline in Europe as soon as they spoke the language used in the aircraft ( mandatory by the EU OPS ).
Only, i'd say 5% on the 16 000 flight attendants are foreigners, and most of them are Asian because Air France developped a product on the Asian lines ( in particular for the Business and First classes ) with asian speakers.

The general product of Air France is made of French goods, food etc.. All pilots are French because to be able to fly on an F- registered aircraft, your license must be converter by French Civil Aviation ( DGAC ), and for that, you need to speak the country"s language.

If i compare to let's say Cityjet, wich is a branch of Air France, but not owned by them, flying under Irish civil aviation rules, and Irish contract law, Cabin Crew in Cityjet are from all over Europe : spain, finland, france, poland, germany, UK, italy etC.. etc.. etc..
Same for Easyjet, Ryanair, but also British Airways, Air Berlin etc.. That's because all these airlines made the initial training and didn't need what French Civil Aviation Code required : CSS ( Safety and Security Certificate ), wich is a kind of degree you need to have to work on any F- registered aircraft before the EU OPS became active.
CSS became european and is now called SFC. That mean now, any person having the SFC in europe could fly Air France, at least if Air France wanted to recruit someone from another european country. As the hiring hasn't started again yet, it's not the case.

Procedure in the aircraft, main language for the crew, and corporate is French, so we can say it's French airline, and typically french with all the benefits ( food culture, land products, french service ) and the bads ( strike, complaints, attitude ).

I'm French, and been working for a French Airline a long time, doing mainly VIP services, and had occasion to fly for Air France on ACMI, i had the occasion to see the passengers and the product air france is proposing to it's passengers.
Yes it is standardized on Economy, and on many things that IATA impose on all it's member airlines. But if you fly Business and First, you get closer to something that Air France used to have in the good old days of aviation, the French Touch.

Good luck with your school work, that's true it's hard to make as you didn't ever fly Air France so couldn't make your own opinion.
jonwait
 
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aerdingus
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:35 pm

Quoting jonwait (Reply 40):
Procedure in the aircraft, main language for the crew, and corporate is French, so we can say it's French airline, and typically french with all the benefits ( food culture, land products, french service ) and the bads ( strike, complaints, attitude ).

I'm French, and been working for a French Airline a long time, doing mainly VIP services, and had occasion to fly for Air France on ACMI, i had the occasion to see the passengers and the product air france is proposing to it's passengers.
Yes it is standardized on Economy, and on many things that IATA impose on all it's member airlines. But if you fly Business and First, you get closer to something that Air France used to have in the good old days of aviation, the French Touch.

Good luck with your school work, that's true it's hard to make as you didn't ever fly Air France so couldn't make your own opinion.

Thanks very much  
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MIAspotter
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 2:47 pm

Quoting sw733 (Reply 4):
Rude crews

Late flights

Indifferent attitude of ground staff

Of course they're French!

Hmm sounds more like Iberia!

Quoting Mir (Reply 19):
If you wanted to, you could even explore as part of your paper how the relationship of AF and KL is just part of the new reality of Europe

Good point, could be interesting to note how they have managed to ¨Fusion¨ the Dutch and French way of working, but again, they are still separate entities so it´s not like you will see KL crews working on AF and vice-versa.

MIAspotter.
Nos vamos de Vueling?
 
travelavnut
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RE: Is Air France French?

Tue Mar 08, 2011 4:15 pm

Quoting goblin211 (Reply 25):
I'm surprised there aren't any french people making any come backs to these insults. Personally, i think AF needs to take better care of their planes though it's a little embarrassing.

The French can take a joke without having their patriotic feelings get the better of them...unlike some other nations......   
Live From Amsterdam!
 
airtrainer
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RE: Is Air France French?

Fri Mar 11, 2011 2:01 am

Quoting sw733 (Reply 6):
Ah come on someone had to say it!

In reality, I've had pleasant experiences with Air France for the most part.

Hmmm, it took four replies, things are going better for AF  
Life is short : eat dessert first !
 
FlySSC
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RE: Is Air France French?

Sun Mar 13, 2011 8:29 pm

Quoting jonwait (Reply 40):
All pilots are French because to be able to fly on an F- registered aircraft, your license must be converter by French Civil Aviation ( DGAC ), and for that, you need to speak the country"s language.

Incorrect.
Many pilots are citizen of an E.U country.
AF has quite afew Belgians pilots, and also some Spanish and Italian citizens. They all speak fluent French.

Quoting jonwait (Reply 40):
All Cabin Crew in Air France ar French because of the crisis the hiring process stopped after the EU OPS became active in July 2007. The EU OPS brought a common european license for cabin crew, allowing them to work in any airline in Europe as soon as they spoke the language used in the aircraft ( mandatory by the EU OPS ).
Only, i'd say 5% on the 16 000 flight attendants are foreigners, and most of them are Asian because Air France developped a product on the Asian lines ( in particular for the Business and First classes ) with asian speakers.

Here again, incorrect...
Several F/A at Air France are citizen of an E.U country : several Belgians, Italians, Dutch, British, Spanish ... a few Germans, Danish, Portuguese.
They all speak perfect French.

Concerning non-EU citizens, AF has Japanese F/A for flights to Japan, and Brazilians for flights to GIG & GRU. They are all based at CDG and work under French contract.

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