reifel
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LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 EUR

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:27 am

Just received agent news from Lufthansa Group that they will charge credit card fees for all bookings paid by credit card to the passenger, no matter if the booking is made through an agent or through LH directly.

The fees are valid for LH, LX, SN, OS, BD for flights departing in:
Germany for Ticket issuance from 02.11.11
Switzerland for Ticket issuance from 02.11.11
Belgium for Ticket issuance from 02.11.11
Finland for Ticket issuance from 05.09.11
Netherlands Finland for Ticket issuance from 05.09.11
United Kingdom for Ticket issuance from 05.09.11

The fees are depending a little bit on the country you are travelling from, but for Germany i.e. are as follows:
-Domestic: 5 EUR
-Europe: 8 EUR
-Intercontinental: 18 EUR ( !!)

This fees is NOT a Ticketing fee, but an additional fee which is automatically generated in the GDS in order to pay (partially according to LH!!!) the credit card transaction fees that are generated.

This is very frustrating for travel agents, as the only other option for them would be to get the money themselves cash or by money transfer from the guest and then charge the ticket cash through BSP with the airline… In the end this means a lot of extra work (and costs) for the agents.

Although some airlines, especially low cost carriers, do charge credit card fees when booking directly with them online (in addition to the ticket service charge), this is somehow revolutionary, since now big players are starting to do same, and this no matter where the booking is made (online, stationary travel agent, airline directly). Furthermore the fees are incredibly high….

You will find an overview (although in German) on: http://www.optional-payment-charge.info/lhgroup/de/agent/summary.pdf
 
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robffm2
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:36 am

There has since long been a ticket service fee which was 5 € higher if you paid with credit card on their website.
 
reifel
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:39 am

Absolutely, but this is different:
- The charge applies in any case, no matter where the booking is made
- now we're talking about up to 18 EUR... in addition to the regular service charge...
 
AirNiugini
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:41 am

Still thats not too bad. Qantas charge $7.70 AUD for domestic and trans-tasman, and $30.00 AUD per ticket on all international flights.

I still don't understand why this is charged per ticket instead of per credit card transaction.
Its time to fly!
 
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nighthawk
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:43 am

This is just ridiculous - the cost to process a credit card is the same whether you fly domestic or international, so why the different charges? This is the kind of thing I would expect from Ryanair, not Lufthansa!

Although these charges may not be around for too much longer in the UK - Stop hiding your credit card charges, OFT tells airlines
 
TeamintheSky
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:48 am

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 4):
the cost to process a credit card is the same whether you fly domestic or international, so why the different charges?

I don't believe that is correct. My understanding is that transaction charges are a percentage of the cost of the transaction. Visa and MasterCard are normally around 1% and AMEX is up to around 3%.

However, I hope this affects LH terribly or we will see all the other majors roll out a similar charge.
Since 2010: DL, KL, AF, WX, IG, FR , FL, U2, AK, BA, OK, UX, VS, VN, K6, AT, US, AY, BE, EI, LG, AZ, 9W, SG, AA, JL, W6
 
reifel
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:50 am

Quoting AirNiugini (Reply 3):
Still thats not too bad. Qantas charge $7.70 AUD for domestic and trans-tasman, and $30.00 AUD per ticket on all international flights.

I still don't understand why this is charged per ticket instead of per credit card transaction.

Hi there,
but is this charge including everyhting, I mean including charge for the ticket issuance, no matter what form of payment is used. Because which is new now, is that your regular travel agent will charge you let's say 40 EUR for the ticket issuance plus 18 EUR for the use of the credit card (instead of "only" 40 EUR they would charge now).
 
AirNiugini
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:50 am

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 4):

Doesn't the credit card provider (eg Amex, Visa & Mastercard) charge a certain % of the total amount paid to the business taking the transaction?

So if it is say .75% of the total cost, that would make sense why they charge more for a more expensive long haul fare.   
Its time to fly!
 
AirNiugini
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:54 am

Quoting reifel (Reply 6):

Hey mate, I see your point. That is pretty rude of Lufty! I'm sure the regulators would have something to say. The LH group shouldn't be allowed to profit off credit card fees.
Its time to fly!
 
MadameConcorde
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 10:55 am

What if people want to pay with Paypal will the 18 EUR still apply as Paypal goes via Credit/Debit card? Will this apply to payments made with Visa cards?
There was a better way to fly it was called Concorde
 
Quokka
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:21 am

Quoting robffm2 (Reply 1):
which was 5 € higher if you paid with credit card on their website.
Quoting robffm2 (Reply 1):
The charge applies in any case, no matter where the booking is made

So will the 5 € be dropped, because if it isn't it looks very much like double dipping ?

Quoting reifel (Reply 6):
but is this charge including everything, I mean including charge for the ticket issuance, no matter what form of payment is used.

The QF fee is specifically for use of a credit card and is separate from other fees and charges.
Online bookings made at qantas.com.au that do not attract a card fee:
BPay - for bookings made 7 days or more before scheduled departure.
Debit MasterCard - for bookings made within 7 days of scheduled departure.
 
reifel
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 11:23 am

Quoting MadameConcorde (Reply 9):
What if people want to pay with Paypal will the 18 EUR still apply as Paypal goes via Credit/Debit card? Will this apply to payments made with Visa cards?

If booked through lh.de with Paypal, no additional credit card fees apply to date... So this might not change later on. However Paypal is not a payment option offered by other travel agents (at least not generally, there might be some exceptions when online travel agents do offer this, but this can be kept aside), therefore if booking through a stationary or online travel agent, you will not have the possibility to "indirectly" pay by credit card using Paypal, since it's not offered (and if it would, the travel agent would need to pay for the Paypal fees...).

Question in this matter is: As LH is obviously making some money on lower fare tickets with these high credit card fees, will they still offer Paypal payment option through their website once the fee would be introduced? Makes no sense to me...
 
macc
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:17 pm

For the moment I am happy that Austria doesnt fall under this new rule. Would be interesting to know why.

In any case, I am looking forward to the day, airlines stop this bullshitting with cheap ticket fares and then adding up ridiculous fees. They should instead charge reasonable ticket prices from the beginning. How comes that you end up paying 150 Euros for a ticket which is offered for 10 €?? That doesnt make any sense at all. Why not just put 150 in the website and stop this extra BS...
I exchanged political frustration with sexual boredom. better spoil a girl than the world
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:31 pm

Living in the US we've been spoiled by the wide usage and acceptance of credit cards however in Europe it's always been my impression that credit cards are frowned upon by businesses so this move by LH doesn't surprise me too much. It's unfortunate but not surprising. Also, cc's are not as commonly used as debit cards and this fee doesn't appear to affect debit card transactions so ironically this will have a greater impact on those who travel the most (who are more likely to carry and use a cc), vs. the leisure passenger that only travels once or twice a year.
 
greenwichsud
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:38 pm

Quoting AirNiugini (Reply 3):
I still don't understand why this is charged per ticket instead of per credit card transaction.

Whenever I have booked for multiple passengers under a single PNR, the purchase has shown up as multiple transactions (one per passenger) on my bank statement. I suppose that makes it easier to reconcile if you need to make changes to a single ticket.
 
Jano
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 12:54 pm

Quoting nighthawk (Reply 4):
This is just ridiculous - the cost to process a credit card is the same whether you fly domestic or international, so why the different charges?

Not really. There is a fixed and a variable part. In the USA the fix part can be around USD0.3. The variable part, depending on
- if it is domestic or international transaction and
- what card is used (VISA/MC; Discover and AMEX charge different %) plus there are differences even for different VISA cards, let say if the purchase is made with a cashback or miles card then the % is higher. This can easily be somewhere between 2% to 4%, if not more for non-qualified rate.

So for example on a $1000 ticket purchase we have USD0.3 plus 2% of USD1000 , which is USD20.3 in transaction fees.

I suppose the fee structure would be similar in EU.
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downtown273
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:03 pm

Most major companies on the high street have 0% charge for credit/debit card transactions (supermarkets, chain retail shops, etc.). I would expect Lufthansa not to have to pay for credit/debit transactions at all. I'm sure they have some sweet deals with the banks they work with as to not to pay credit card fees (probably except AMEX).

Basically, a "fee" you'd expect from easyJet / Ryanair, not from Lufthansa.
 
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Aesma
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:03 pm

I don't like to spend money I don't have, so I only own a debit card. Would I have to pay the fee, and the title is misleading ?

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
those who travel the most (who are more likely to carry and use a cc)

I'm not sure I see the correlation, if you travel a lot, it's either paid for by your employer (and you don't use your card) or you have lots of money, so why use a credit ?

BTW, my cheap debit card is still a VISA international that works around the globe.
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
something
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:06 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 13):
Living in the US we've been spoiled by the wide usage and acceptance of credit cards however in Europe it's always been my impression that credit cards are frowned upon by businesses so this move by LH doesn't surprise me too much.

Yes, credit cards are not very popular here. It's either cash or debit card. It cuts out the middle man and reduces the risk for the business involved. And while the charges LH imposes seem outrageous, I'm not really sure they are. For a €10 000 first class ticket FRA-MIA-FRA, LH would be paying around €300 in credit card fees at a 3% charge. Obviously, you are screwed if you book a €99 discount fare, but other than for this small number of cheap seats I don't really see much room for LH to make money with this. It's an austerity measure and all too understandable.

If others will follow or if LH is shooting themselves in the foot with this one, remains to be seen. I suspect the former to become reality though. But as long as paypay still works for free, not a real issue for me.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
viveAF
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:08 pm

Interesting to see the varying levels of charge between the different issuing countries.... the UK charge is showing as GBP4.50 which is exactly the same as the fee introduced by BA... coincidence? or maybe not wanting to appear more greedy than them?   
 
LondonCity
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:23 pm

Quoting viveAF (Reply 19):
Interesting to see the varying levels of charge between the different issuing countries.... the UK charge is showing as GBP4.50 which is exactly the same as the fee introduced by BA...

LH Group cc fees are lower in more competitive markets, eg those dominated by Oneworld and Skyteam.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:26 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
I'm not sure I see the correlation, if you travel a lot, it's either paid for by your employer (and you don't use your card) or you have lots of money, so why use a credit ?

You have a very old fashion approach. Just because I use a CC it doesn't mean I don't have the money. But I understand that's exactly the mentality in Europe. It just means my money is earning interest in my account, however small that may be, until the end of the month when the CC bill comes. And I always pay my CC bill in full, every month, so I'm not paying the CC company any interest for borrowing money for a month. I win every month. You also don't have protection from fraud if you use a debit card vs. a cc. If someone takes your debit card you're screwd. If your cc is stolen, you don't have to pay. But the main difference between a credit card and a debit card is the cc puts the extra burned on the vendor whereas the debit card puts the extra burden on the consumer.
 
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Aesma
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:45 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
You have a very old fashion approach. Just because I use a CC it doesn't mean I don't have the money. But I understand that's exactly the mentality in Europe. It just means my money is earning interest in my account, however small that may be, until the end of the month when the CC bill comes.

I could do that with my card for a very small fee, and it still would be a debit card (deferred debit). It's a definition problem, then. And I have insurances if my card is stolen (also, it can't be used that easily without my PIN).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
reifel
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:49 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 17):
I don't like to spend money I don't have, so I only own a debit card. Would I have to pay the fee, and the title is misleading ?

This is indeed an interesting point. A lot of countries, i.e. France, but as far as I know also Spain and maybe Italy, have a lot of VISA and Mastercard Debit Cards.

Everyone that opens an account in France will as default receive a VISA or Mastercard debit card, directly linked to the account, with mention "carte Bleue" on it, which they can use for domestic transactions (i.e. ATM) but also for international transactions as any other "regular" VISA card. And of course they will need to pay the fee too, although this card is actually not a "credit card".

However this is uncommun in Germany. Bank account holders receive a seperate plastic card, either Maestro or VPAY for domestic purchases, which is a debit card. They may furthermore request a credit card if they like and if the bank is willing to grant it.

But basically the fee is not "for credit cards", but for "visa or MC or amex branded cards, no matter if it's debit or credit".
 
mbj2000
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 1:50 pm

This is so stupid! So how are they going to continue to promote now their own Miles&More credit cards?? "Get our expensive cards, so you get double f*cked"
What's the alternative if I buy my ticket online, should I wire the money and wait 3 days and then the tickets are issued?

The EU should force them to reveal the true CC processing costs...
Like most of life's problems, this one can be solved with bending -- Bender Unit 22
 
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Aesma
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 3:37 pm

IIRC it's in Germany that a court ruled against Ryanair (or Easyjet) because they didn't offer a way to pay without the fee, so LH is obligated to offer a free way (even a ridiculous one like the prepaid card Ryanair accepts).
New Technology is the name we give to stuff that doesn't work yet. Douglas Adams
 
ORDJOE
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:11 pm

FWIW I think BA does this for non US credit cards. For US credit cards, it is against the agreement with Visa, MC, AMEX etc to add an extra charge, and in all honesty the extra charge would just not be tolerated by Americans.

In addition to convience Americans like credit cards a lot due to the rewards, (cash, miles, points) that come with the use of the card, where using cash gets nothing. I charge almost everything I buy, and get a ticket to europe every year by using the card. Also credit cards in America are really not that expensive in terms of fees and interest (there are some exceptions) especially compared to the rest of the world. That is pretty much why we are addicted to the plastic and just fine with it.
 
reifel
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:19 pm

Quoting Aesma (Reply 25):
IIRC it's in Germany that a court ruled against Ryanair (or Easyjet) because they didn't offer a way to pay without the fee, so LH is obligated to offer a free way (even a ridiculous one like the prepaid card Ryanair accepts).

Well they do:
-either book online through lufthansa.de and pay via "Lastschriftvefahren" (which is basically that you enter your bank details and they charge directly your checking account, which is very popular in Germany)
-book hrough an agent and pay on the spot (and don't use the credit card)
 
something
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 4:44 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
You have a very old fashion approach.

If your world view is as much of a fairy tale as the things you say about credit cards, then yes, Europe is a super old fashioned.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
It just means my money is earning interest in my account, however small that may be, until the end of the month when the CC bill comes.

Debit card transactions are withdrawn from your bank account. You earn more interest on there than in your credit card account.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
You also don't have protection from fraud if you use a debit card vs. a cc.

There is not even a hint of truth in that. Additionally, you need a pin code to use a debit card. A credit card has no such protection. In fact, the liability waiver for most credit cards is rather limited. For my debit card, it's unlimited.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
If your cc is stolen, you don't have to pay.

And for a debit card you do? Not here. Not even when you break it.

Quoting airbazar (Reply 21):
But the main difference between a credit card and a debit card is the cc puts the extra burned on the vendor whereas the debit card puts the extra burden on the consumer.

If a store accepts debit cards it has to pay a lower charge than if it accept credit cards. As a consumer, you don't pay anything for the transaction. On the other hand, many stores charge their customers the credit card provision. With a debit card, the only time you pay is when you go to an ATM of another bank than yours. Doing the same with a credit card costs on average 2.67 times as much (according to Mastercard).

The difference is that with a credit card, you can spend money that you don't have. Which can be very useful in emergencies. The acceptance of credit cards is more widespread than that of debit cards. Another advantage is that it's simple to use for online purchases and that some credit cards come with extra benefits. My credit card for instance comes with a very comprehensive insurance package, among other things. I pay an annual credit card fee, but for my personal consumer behavior, it's cheaper than conventional insurances. But that is more certainly not true for everybody. Debit cards come with your bank account.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.
 
airbazar
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:01 pm

Quoting something (Reply 28):
If your world view is as much of a fairy tale as the things you say about credit cards, then yes, Europe is a super old fashioned.

You got it all backwards.

Quoting something (Reply 28):
Debit card transactions are withdrawn from your bank account. You earn more interest on there than in your credit card account.

Exactly. Which is why I use a CC, so I can keep earning interest on my bank account, all month long. I don't think you bothered to read me post.

Quoting something (Reply 28):
If a store accepts debit cards it has to pay a lower charge than if it accept credit cards. As a consumer, you don't pay anything for the transaction. On the other hand, many stores charge their customers the credit card provision. With a debit card, the only time you pay is when you go to an ATM of another bank than yours. Doing the same with a credit card costs on average 2.67 times as much (according to Mastercard).

The difference is that with a credit card, you can spend money that you don't have. Which can be very useful in emergencies. The acceptance of credit cards is more widespread than that of debit cards. Another advantage is that it's simple to use for online purchases and that some credit cards come with extra benefits. My credit card for instance comes with a very comprehensive insurance package, among other things. I pay an annual credit card fee, but for my personal consumer behavior, it's cheaper than conventional insurances. But that is more certainly not true for everybody. Debit cards come with your bank account.

Exactly where did I state any differently? You're agreeing with me and yet you tell me my world view is a fairy tale.   
 
something
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RE: LH Group Introduces Credit Card Fee Up To 18 E

Wed Aug 03, 2011 5:11 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 29):
Exactly where did I state any differently? You're agreeing with me and yet you tell me my world view is a fairy tale.

I didn't say your world view was a fairy tale. I said it is if you think Europe is in any way ''old fashioned''. Which is what you accused Aesma of, having an old fashioned approach to paying his bills. I'm sorry if I made it sound that way.

The fact of the matter is, most people don't need credit cards because a debit card and/or cash will do just fine. Credit cards may have benefits that don't come with a debit card (even if it's just frequent flier miles), but as everywhere the 'there is no free lunch' rule applies as well. You pay for what you get.

If you only want to spend the money you have, there is no point in spending an annual credit card fee.
..sick of it. -K. Pilkington.

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