747400sp
Topic Author
Posts: 3890
Joined: Sat Aug 09, 2003 7:27 pm

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:10 pm

After the trouble JetBlue had in 2007, with holding passengers on a plane for over 5 hours, which led to new laws to prevent this from happening again. Now this past weekend, B6 make the same mistake again. How could B6 let this happen again? They could have diverted their jets to an airport in the south. They could flown to ORF or Richmond International in VA. When will B6 learn their lesson? JetBlue has a lot of passengers who like flying them, but if they keep making mistakes like this, they going to lose their passengers.
 
nkops
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:20 pm

There is a whole conversation going on about this here:

Saturday Snow In NYC Area (by jtl11968 Oct 29 2011 in Civil Aviation)

The blame is not solely on B6, and they were not the only ones stuck on the taxiways at BDL for hours... Delta and American also were there for several hours, its just B6 getting the publicity.

I believe some of the blame has to be on the airport also.... I understand that BDL had 23 diversions which over saturated them, but there should be a contingency plan for this.... I know in ACY, we have one in case of multiple diversions, and so far, we have not had any issues with the 3 hour rule. I also understand that 23 diversions is not the norm.

BTW, if you get to listen to the LiveATC.net tapes from that night for BDL, I highly suggest it (it was actually really interesting to listen to)... you will hear the JBU pilot begging for the airport to get them to a gate, but to no avail.
:evil:
 
nws2002
Posts: 727
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When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:21 pm

While it is not optimal to have passengers stuck for seven hours, there were circumstances beyond the control of B6 (and AA who was also involved). BDL was jammed yesterday with multiple power fluctuations, and there were ILS and weather issues at EWR/JFK. Diverting to an airport further south may not have been an option with the fuel onboard.

Sometimes things will happen and the system will break down. Should we learn from these mistakes? Sure, but with something as complex as airline operations and unpredictable as weather they will occur on occasion.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5711
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:22 pm

i expect this thread to be deleted because it kind of repeats some of the discussion in the longer thread.

But before anyone comes in and says the fault lies with BDL - remember that much of the focus on the Continental Express issue was pushed back on the airline operations center.

The new laws about keeping passengers on a plane made it very clear that the airline operations center, and airline management has the PRIMARY responsibility to ensure service is available for an aircraft. Even if the aircraft goes into an airport with issues - it is the airline responsibility to work the phones and find resources to help the situation.

The airline cannot say - we landed - it is the airport's responsibility.

I also expect American to get a heavy fine over their CDG flight which went into BDL.

Though AA probably diverted to BDL due to having a presence at the airport - they had to know that BDL does not have the customs and immigration staff to handle a large international flight. I doubt the international terminal building is even staffed at this point.

I've been at BDL during extensive weather delays. It is a terrible airport for diversion flights. The airport does not have sufficient food and services for extended passenger times, it is too far from hotels and other food sources if ground transportation is impacted. The airlines have to know this.

Very bad choice on the part of both B6 and AA.

[Edited 2011-10-31 08:24:23]
 
JHCRJ700
Posts: 215
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When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:23 pm

Quoting nkops (Reply 2):
BTW, if you get to listen to the LiveATC.net tapes from that night for BDL, I highly suggest it (it was actually really interesting to listen to)... you will hear the JBU pilot begging for the airport to get them to a gate, but to no avail.

I knew there was more to the story.
RUSH
 
rfields5421
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When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:28 pm

Quoting nws2002 (Reply 3):
Diverting to an airport further south may not have been an option with the fuel onboard.

How many diversion did PVD get? The airlines made a choice to go into BDL, even after they knew there were problems at the airport.

Quoting nkops (Reply 2):
you will hear the JBU pilot begging for the airport to get them to a gate

Do we also have a recording of the crew talking to their operations center? Do we have a recording of what he was told would be available at BDL, if anything, when he landed by B6 ops?

Yes, the pilot was begging for a gate that did not exist, but why did his airline put him in that situation in the first place?
 
nkops
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:41 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
Yes, the pilot was begging for a gate that did not exist, but why did his airline put him in that situation in the first place?

I am not arguing the point, I am saying the tape is very interesting to listen to, and in fact the pilot was very upset with his ops there.. At one time the pilot of 504 thanked the ATC for their hard work that night. You also hear the pilot of 372 (sitting at the gate) asking ground to call JBU ops because all the ground personnel disappeared without an explanation after unsuccessfully pushing 372 off the gate.

Unfortunately, we cannot hear conversations between JBU ops and the aircraft, because that would have been a tape I would love to hear!!!!
:evil:
 
bluewhale18210
Posts: 179
Joined: Thu Aug 10, 2006 3:23 pm

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:53 pm

Quoting rfields5421 (Reply 6):
Yes, the pilot was begging for a gate that did not exist, but why did his airline put him in that situation in the first place?

Believe it or not it is considered in alternate selection. Sometimes it is down to whether you want to bump x number of passengers to carry a more distant alternate. When considering the chance of said diversion actually happen it is sometimes worth the risk to make sure everyone get on with a fairly good chance of making it into JFK. I have worked with dispatchers before who insist on putting distant alternate and lots of holding fuel on a plane, to a point that one or two people got bumped for the fuel. About 1% of the time it actually pays off and the extra fuel makes a difference. The rest of time someone got left on the ground.
And then sometimes this happens and the airline gets stuck with the bad press.
Or someone just got lazy and forgot to check capacity of BDL.
JPS on A300-600RF A319/320 B737-400/800 B757-200F B767-300F CRJ-200/900. Looking to add more.
 
rfields5421
Posts: 5711
Joined: Thu Jul 19, 2007 12:45 am

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:55 pm

Understand. Just focusing on the point that the discussion needs to include WHY the aircraft went to BDL. The law does make the airline responsible for that decision and what happens on the ground after the aircraft lands.

A quote from a CNN article - which you can hear on the ATC tape.

Quote:
"Listen, I just want to put in my two cents worth in for whatever it worth. Thank you very much," he said. "It's Capt. Thompson over here on (Flight) 504 ... I think we've got more help from you guys than our own people."

souce - http://www.cnn.com/2011/10/31/travel...etblue-flight/index.html?hpt=hp_t1
 
FURUREFA
Posts: 635
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 2:26 am

When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 3:55 pm

I'm not usually someone who supports things like the "Passenger Bill of Rights" (I think it has caused more problems than it has resolved), but B6 deserves to get slapped with the full $27,500 fine per PAX.

The fact that we are hearing about several B6 flights who all held there passengers captive for an exorbitant amount of time, and few to nothing about other airlines' flights (AA was an international diversion, which requires different logistics) means that clearly JetBlue has some operational issues they need to resolve.

At my airline, we are EXTREMELY strict about the Bill of Rights. Employees across workgroups are taught about the Bill of Rights and its consequences, and then quizzed. We have a plan in place, in which we go up the airport, then regional, then national chain of command the longer PAX are held onboard.

My airline has not yet had an issue with holding passengers captive.
 
Cubsrule
Posts: 11659
Joined: Sat May 15, 2004 12:13 pm

RE: When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 4:23 pm

Quoting FURUREFA (Reply 9):
(AA was an international diversion, which requires different logistics)

AA also made a plan to get out and executed it, ultimately landing (and clearing customs, I presume) at DTW.

One "problem" for B6 is that they don't have many stations in the midwest, which is likely where they would have wanted to go. How much snow did the upstate airports or BTV get?
I can't decide whether I miss the tulip or the bowling shoe more
 
ArmitageShanks
Posts: 3766
Joined: Tue Dec 30, 2003 5:30 am

RE: When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Mon Oct 31, 2011 10:46 pm

Quoting nkops (Reply 1):

BTW, if you get to listen to the LiveATC.net tapes from that night for BDL, I highly suggest it (it was actually really interesting to listen to)... you will hear the JBU pilot begging for the airport to get them to a gate, but to no avail.

Where can one find those recordings?
 
nkops
Posts: 2161
Joined: Fri Jun 03, 2005 10:09 am

RE: When Will B6 Learn Their Lesson?

Thu Nov 03, 2011 2:11 am

Quoting armitageshanks (Reply 11):
Where can one find those recordings?

LiveATC.net and go to archives and pick the time and date... I believe they archive them for 60 days
:evil:

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