nipoel123
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:23 am

ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 2:40 pm

Hi all,

I was looking at flight to YYZ yesterday, when I saw a very attractive offer on KL. The itinerary is as follows
ZYR (Brussels Midi Station) - AMS by train
AMS-YYZ on a 744.
This would cost me 'only' €740,-.

An AMS-YYZ only itinerary would cost me €1090,-.

I now wonder whether I can just skip the train leg, and go to AMS straight away. From my place to Brussels or Schiphol is only a 15 min. difference, so it wouldn't make much of a difference there, I would have to be in Brussels earlier though.

Anyone have any experience on this?

Nick
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
 
signol
Posts: 2652
Joined: Tue Oct 30, 2007 5:18 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:16 pm

This is probably partly due to the lower cost of international air taxes on leaving Belgium. As the first leg is by train though, and there is no checked baggage facility, would there actually be any way for the airline to know you're doing this "hidden city ticketing"? If it was an actual flight not a train, it would clearly be worth making the extra trip to start from BRU...

signol
Flights booked: NWI-AMS-JNB-DUR, JNB-AMS-NWI
 
SASMD82
Posts: 616
Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 am

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:30 pm

To skip the first part would be very logical. I know a couple of years ago people buying tickets BRU/CGN/DUS - AMS - onwards because it saved hundreds of Euros. Skipping the first leg and boarding in AMS. Saves a lot of time and money.

Though it is very strange and logical to avoid the first leg, KL will treat you as a no-show and you ar - thus - not permitted to board your AMS - YYZ leg.
 
B747forever
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RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:38 pm

Quoting SASMD82 (Reply 2):
Though it is very strange and logical to avoid the first leg, KL will treat you as a no-show and you ar - thus - not permitted to board your AMS - YYZ leg.

No it is not strange that KL cancel your whole itinerary if you do not show up to the first flight. You bought a ticket from A to C via B and not from B to C. If you only wanted to travel B to C you should have booked that, even if it is more expensive.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
SASMD82
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Joined: Sun Mar 18, 2007 12:44 am

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 3:54 pm

Quoting B747forever (Reply 3):
No it is not strange that KL cancel your whole itinerary if you do not show up to the first flight. You bought a ticket from A to C via B and not from B to C. If you only wanted to travel B to C you should have booked that, even if it is more expensive.

OK, you have a point. BTW. I would never do such a thing. I live 5 km from AMS but imagine, first taking a train / driving to Dusseldorf, park your car (how much will cost this???). What are your savings then?
 
signol
Posts: 2652
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RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:30 pm

The OP's original point is that the first leg is operated by a train, so there is no way of KL knowing if he took the flight or not.

signol
Flights booked: NWI-AMS-JNB-DUR, JNB-AMS-NWI
 
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CrimsonNL
Posts: 1783
Joined: Wed Dec 05, 2007 6:34 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:52 pm

I would consult KL before no showing on the train stretch. I know a few years ago it was in the news that some man was denied boarding his flight because he didn't use the Thalys part of the ticket.

Martijn
Always comparing your flown types list with mine
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 4:56 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I would consult KL before no showing on the train stretch. I know a few years ago it was in the news that some man was denied boarding his flight because he didn't use the Thalys part of the ticket.

Martijn

Exactly, would not risk it, especially as the OP says it is only a 15 min difference to go to BRU instead of AMS.
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
nipoel123
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:23 am

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 6:22 pm

Thanks a lot everyone,

I agree it's not worth taking the risk. I'm afraid that at check-in they might ask for a stamped train ticket. To Brussels it is, then!
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
 
B747forever
Posts: 12855
Joined: Mon May 21, 2007 9:50 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 7:18 pm

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 8):
Thanks a lot everyone,

I agree it's not worth taking the risk. I'm afraid that at check-in they might ask for a stamped train ticket. To Brussels it is, then!

Have a safe and enjoyable trip!
Work Hard, Fly Right
 
Viscount724
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Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Sun Dec 11, 2011 10:07 pm

Quoting CrimsonNL (Reply 6):
I would consult KL before no showing on the train stretch. I know a few years ago it was in the news that some man was denied boarding his flight because he didn't use the Thalys part of the ticket.

You also have to present your KLM ticket at the railway station and obtain a rail ticket before boading the train.
https://www.klm.com/travel/nl_en/plan_and_book/booking/booking_options/Travel_by_rail_with_a_KLM_ticket.htm
 
rwsea
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RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Mon Dec 12, 2011 12:02 pm

KLM often offers much cheaper tickets from Brussels-Midi or Antwerpen-Centraal than they do from AMS. Makes no sense, and probably explains part of the reason that AFKLM is doing so poorly.

Unfortunately you must check in at the train station in Belgium, or the rest of the trip will be cancelled.

On the return, it's easier - just go claim your train ticket at the NS offices at Schiphol, and head on to wherever you're going. Don't actually need to get on any trains.
 
MEA-707
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Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Mon Dec 12, 2011 1:18 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 11):
KLM often offers much cheaper tickets from Brussels-Midi or Antwerpen-Centraal than they do from AMS. Makes no sense, and probably explains part of the reason that AFKLM is doing so poorly.

It does make sense. I'd suggest searching on the net on yield management and competition litterature.
A non stop flight is more attractive, so KLM can ask a premium for these.
If you live close to Brussels, an Air Canada non stop flight to YYZ is more attractive then a train and changing on Schiphol. To scoop passengers away and fill up their AMS-YYZ flight, they downcut these prices, without spoiling the price level for the non stop market from Amsterdam. So in this case they fill for instance fill up the plane with 150 non stop pax paying 800 return and 150 pax paying 600 euro to fly from Brussels, Billund and Stuttgart and still make more money then asking everyone to pay 700 for Amsterdam-Toronto and only have 200 passengers willing to pay that, and have 100 seats empty.
All airlines do that, including very successful ones. In Amsterdam we have often very cheap connecting flights with Lufthansa, BA, Austrian while their native passengers have to pay more for the non stop flight. Or look at Emirates which O/D nonstop flights are often more expensive while you get less mileage then the connecting itenerary.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
nipoel123
Topic Author
Posts: 236
Joined: Thu Jan 13, 2011 6:23 am

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:14 pm

Quoting rwsea (Reply 11):
On the return, it's easier - just go claim your train ticket at the NS offices at Schiphol, and head on to wherever you're going. Don't actually need to get on any trains.

I do have to claim the ticket? What would happen if I didn't?

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 12):
If you live close to Brussels, an Air Canada non stop flight to YYZ is more attractive then a train and changing on Schiphol.

That flight has a stop in YUL, as far as I know, and I've been checking flights the entire Saturday morning  .
one mile of road leads to nowhere, one mile of runway leads to anywhere
 
MEA-707
Posts: 3661
Joined: Mon Nov 15, 1999 4:51 am

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Mon Dec 12, 2011 4:20 pm

I didn't check all schedules, but now I see Jet Airways has a non stopper to YYZ. So KLMs has to undercut their prices at least with 100-200 euro to get a part of the Belgian market.
nobody has ever died from hard work, but why take the risk?
 
rwsea
Posts: 2422
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2005 2:23 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Mon Dec 12, 2011 9:59 pm

Quoting nipoel123 (Reply 13):

I do have to claim the ticket? What would happen if I didn't?

I don't think anything bad would happen, but since you're there already you might as well. In an extreme case, KLM could try to claim some sort of damages for breach of contract (truly stupid, but technically they might be able to make such a case).
 
Viscount724
Posts: 18858
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: ZYR-AMS Question

Tue Dec 13, 2011 12:54 am

Quoting MEA-707 (Reply 12):
All airlines do that, including very successful ones. In Amsterdam we have often very cheap connecting flights with Lufthansa, BA, Austrian while their native passengers have to pay more for the non stop flight. Or look at Emirates which O/D nonstop flights are often more expensive while you get less mileage then the connecting itenerary.

If they didn´t do that, many airlines wouldn´t exist or would be much smaller since their home markets are much too small to justify their extensive route networks. KL and LX are good examples. Like KL 6th freedom fares via AMS, LX fares for connections at ZRH are usually lower than for O&D travel to/from ZRH.

Today´s sophisticated revenue management systems can control the inventory to ensure that lower-yield connecting traffic doesn´t displace higher-yield O&D traffic to/from the hub where you should be able to charge a premium for nonstop service.

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