cedarjet
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US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:22 pm

Are the rules in place to stop (for instance) Air Canada offering connecting service from, ooh, I don't know, Seattle to New York via Toronto? Or to stop (say) United Airlines offering Vancouver to Toronto via O'Hare?

Or, it's legal but no airline offers an option like this because the hassle of having to clear foreign immigration at the transit point is a deal-breaker for any potential customer, so they don't bother trying to sell it?

Anyone know? Anyone tried it using separate tickets (and why)?
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powercube
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:25 pm

Legally speaking, it is cabotage- and thus not allowed.

That said, I was once on a ORD-YYZ flight (I think AC508) where a passenger was worried about his LGA connection. I am still perplexed what was going on to this day.
 
acidradio
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:28 pm

Quoting powercube (Reply 1):
Legally speaking, it is cabotage- and thus not allowed.

I was once curious about this too. I tried to book a ticket MSP to one of the NYC airports via YYZ and AC's website wouldn't permit it.
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jetjack74
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:41 pm

Quoting acidradio (Reply 2):
I was once curious about this too. I tried to book a ticket MSP to one of the NYC airports via AC's website wouldn't permit it.

There's nothing to stop you from from booking a ticket like that, I don' think, except you would have to clear Canadian and US customs redflag  (Answer a LOAD of questions from both sides) and go through security, and pay for 2 different tickets(the way airlines probably discourage the practice). A host of reasons to drop that idea unless you were determined.





[Edited 2012-07-15 09:45:57]
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kgaiflyer
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 4:46 pm

The problem would be with Canadian Immigration.

If your answer to their question on "Why are you here" is "To have a bit of fun flying back and forth across the Canadian-US border" then you might as well go back home.

I still remember the first time I did IAD-LHR and had to go through customs at Ottawa-MacDonald simply to change planes. The answer they were waiting for was "I'm transiting this airport with an American passport in order to get to the AC London flight." I kept saying "I'm going to the AC flight to London." The agent kept stopping me and asking me to answer the question again and again. Finally she asked me "Why don't your use the word "transit" in you reply?" So I said "I'm transiting this airport in order to get to the London flight" and she let me through.

Picky, picky.   

[Edited 2012-07-15 09:52:27]
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 15, 2012 8:17 pm

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
If your answer to their question on "Why are you here" is "To have a bit of fun flying back and forth across the Canadian-US border" then you might as well go back home.

The answer is "in transit." That should be all you need to say to them.

Quoting powercube (Reply 1):
Legally speaking, it is cabotage- and thus not allowed.

If booked on AC stock. But there's no legal reason that UA couldn't sell me an ORD-YYZ-BOS ticket, with the YYZ-BOS segment an AC codeshare flight.
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fghtngsiouxatc
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Mon Jul 16, 2012 5:53 am

It wasn't a problem for me and my 2 other travel companions. Our route was YWG-MSP-SFO-HNL. We drove from GFK to YWG, cleared Canadian immigration at the border. We then cleared pre-clearance at YWG without a hitch. We explained to them our story, they gave us a perplexed look, and we were on our way. Same thing on the way back. It was $250 cheaper to fly out of YWG than MSP or GFK, so we took it! It was quite the experience.
 
RJLover
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Mon Jul 16, 2012 9:56 am

Quoting kgaiflyer (Reply 4):
If your answer to their question on "Why are you here" is "To have a bit of fun flying back and forth across the Canadian-US border" then you might as well go back home.

Not quite so fast... I've done 21 Can-US transborder roundtrips for that exact reason. Also, 2 Can-England and 1 Can-Bermuda roundtips!
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kgaiflyer
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:07 pm

Quoting RJLover (Reply 7):

Not quite so fast... I've done 21 Can-US transborder roundtrips for that exact reason. Also, 2 Can-England and 1 Can-Bermuda roundtips!

"Not quite so fast" yourself.

Your profile says you use a Canadian passport, so your international status is automatically different than mine in this matter.
 
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longhauler
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Mon Jul 16, 2012 2:59 pm

YYZ-YVR is usually a bit of a grind for a non-rev, (even with hourly and half-hourly wide-bodies).

A gave a buddy pass to a friend of mine who flew YYZ-ORD, then ORD-YVR. When the service charges were being processed, they had to be done on two separate invoices. Attached was a letter explaining that technically that routing was not allowed, unless it was considered two different trips.
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canadianpylon
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Thu Jul 19, 2012 2:20 am

Quoting fghtngsiouxatc (Reply 6):
It was $250 cheaper to fly out of YWG than MSP or GFK, so we took it! It was quite the experience.

Well, there's a first!
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Viscount724
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Thu Jul 19, 2012 10:59 pm

Quoting jetjack74 (Reply 3):
Quoting acidradio (Reply 2):
I was once curious about this too. I tried to book a ticket MSP to one of the NYC airports via AC's website wouldn't permit it.

There's nothing to stop you from from booking a ticket like that, I don' think, except you would have to clear Canadian and US customs

Yes there is. It's illegal. It's definitely considered cabotage if you purchase it as a single transaction and airlines can be fined heavily if they promote such routings. You can of course do it if you purchase two completely separate bookings in separate transactions.

KE (or may have been Asiana) got a big fine a few years ago when they were caught advertising and selling connectiing service Guam-mainland U.S. via Korea, which is the equivalent of AC selling U.S.-U.S. via Canada, or a U.S. carrier selling Canada-Canada via the U.S.
 
Cubsrule
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:04 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
It's definitely considered cabotage if you purchase it as a single transaction and airlines can be fined heavily if they promote such routings.

What about reprotection? If I have my passport with me in SEA and my AA flight SEA-ORD-BOS cancels, can AA legally reprotect me on AC? I realize it wouldn't be very practical, but is it legal?
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Viscount724
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:39 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 11):
It's definitely considered cabotage if you purchase it as a single transaction and airlines can be fined heavily if they promote such routings.

What about reprotection? If I have my passport with me in SEA and my AA flight SEA-ORD-BOS cancels, can AA legally reprotect me on AC? I realize it wouldn't be very practical, but is it legal?

That would still be cabotage in my opinion, since AC would be getting the revenue for a passenger carried between two US points.
 
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longhauler
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:40 am

Quoting Cubsrule (Reply 12):
What about reprotection? If I have my passport with me in SEA and my AA flight SEA-ORD-BOS cancels, can AA legally reprotect me on AC? I realize it wouldn't be very practical, but is it legal?

No. Much like if you were flying JFK-LAX on AA and it cancelled. You could not be protected on QF JFK-LAX. (unless you happened to flying out of LAX on QF).
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Viscount724
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:55 am

Found a 1998 U.S. DOT order covering a $19,000 fine (half the fine was forgiven if they had no further violations within the next 15 months) to Asiana for selling cargo transportation from Seattle to Guam via Seoul. Same restrictions apply for passengers and cargo. The order explains the cabotage policy quite clearly. It also clarifies that if a passenger purchases 2 separate tickets and there's a stopover at the connecting point, that's permitted (but can't be advertised or promoted).
http://docketsinfo.dot.gov/general/orders/19983qtr/jul98/980722.pdf

[Edited 2012-07-19 19:02:22]
 
AirAfreak
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Fri Jul 20, 2012 9:59 am

I purchased an ATL-LAX via YYZ with Air Canada roundtrip. The flight was significantly cheaper (versus our US-based airlines) and one one itinerary (one confirmation number) and there were no problems with connecting times and pre-clearance. It is legal and it has been done by me, on December 2011 without any issues.

Note: I purchased my ticket less than 4 days before departure, so you should think "outside of the box" and search with Air Canada and Aeromexico (depending on your final destination, of course.)
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longhauler
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Fri Jul 20, 2012 1:26 pm

Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 16):
I purchased an ATL-LAX via YYZ with Air Canada roundtrip. The flight was significantly cheaper (versus our US-based airlines) and one one itinerary (one confirmation number) and there were no problems with connecting times and pre-clearance. It is legal and it has been done by me, on December 2011 without any issues.

I don't suppose you still have your locator. I would be curious to see how it was done, I can check the history of res.

If you tried that today, for a trip in 4 days, you get a big red warning that it is not allowed.
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Viscount724
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 22, 2012 1:26 am



Quoting AirAfreak (Reply 16):
I purchased an ATL-LAX via YYZ with Air Canada roundtrip. The flight was significantly cheaper (versus our US-based airlines) and one one itinerary (one confirmation number) and there were no problems with connecting times and pre-clearance. It is legal and it has been done by me, on December 2011 without any issues.

It's definitely not legal and AC was exposing themselves to a potential fine if they did it and if the U.S. DOT became aware of it.

[Edited 2012-07-21 18:31:07]
 
Yflyer
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 22, 2012 7:39 am

Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
That would still be cabotage in my opinion, since AC would be getting the revenue for a passenger carried between two US points.

But what if it was entirely on UA metal, say ORD-YYZ-EWR? Would a routing like that be allowed?
 
Viscount724
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RE: US To US On Air Canada (or Can To Can On US?)

Sun Jul 22, 2012 8:49 pm

Quoting Yflyer (Reply 19):
Quoting Viscount724 (Reply 13):
That would still be cabotage in my opinion, since AC would be getting the revenue for a passenger carried between two US points.

But what if it was entirely on UA metal, say ORD-EWR? Would a routing like that be allowed?

Yes, no problem. Similarly, if someone wanted to do it, AC could sell YVR-SEA-YYZ.

NW once operated a through flight (same flight number) MSP-YEG-ANC and could carry passengers on all sectors of the routing. If a Canadian carrier operated those two sectors, they could sell MSP-YEG and YEG-ANC but not MSP-ANC as that's cabotage.

[Edited 2012-07-22 13:50:28]

[Edited 2012-07-22 13:51:40]

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