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Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:11 am

I've read it before and I just read it again, "[insert name] airlines is too premium of an airline for SkyTeam."

Does SkyTeam really have a reputation of being an alliance of third rate airlines? Is it considered inferior to Star Alliance and oneworld? If so, what is the judging criteria?

(maybe I've been hiding under a rock)
 
PHX787
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:23 am

I don't know about you, but (even though I hate DL for their customer service on non-sky miles Y domestic and for pulling out of CVG) DL is one heck of a good airline, if you ask me. I'm 2000 miles short of becoming a gold member.

I've also have had no issues when I've flown with AF or KL. All really good quality airlines with really good quality products.

Sure EK and SQ are probably the top dogs when it comes to offerings but you still can't beat the friendly smiles you get from the DL and AF attendants!
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bill142
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:35 am

Just look at the airlines who are members. They're not airlines you associate with a high quality of service and safety.
 
Byrdluvs747
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:40 am

Short answer, yes. However, there are some bright spots in ST. Korean being one of them.
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usflyer msp
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:09 am

The core SkyTeam Airlines are fine (DL, AM, AF, KL, KE, CZ, ME, OK and even KQ) but it definitely has more questionable 2nd tier carriers than Star and Oneworld.

When you think of...

Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.




Before I get flamed, I understand Garuda and Aeroflot have improved greatly over the last few years but their poor reputation precedes them.
 
CapEd388
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:56 am

I'm sorry, but how are Delta, KLM, Air France, Korean Air, AeroMexico, China Southern etc. low quality or unsafe airlines??

I know that these core members are not at the premium level of Emirates, Etihad or Singapore, but they are not exactly low quality airlines. They offer comparable and competitive service to that of the core members of the other two alliances.

I am neutral when it comes to the alliances, I think they all have their strengths and their weaknesses, but to suggest that somehow SkyTeam has all the low quality and unsafe airlines is a little unfair and misguided.
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rwsea
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:17 am

Living in AMS, SkyTeam works okay for me. Generally speaking, I can easily fly direct to those places I travel most, including long-haul destinations lik PDX, SEA, SIN, HKG, and CPT. With that said, Star Alliance clearly has better coverage to many places in Europe and especially within Asia. The core SkyTeam carriers like KL, AF, DL, and KE are fine, and AZ, OK, and KQ are reasonable enough. That said, travelling between major business markets in Asia is a challenge (I was in SIN for two months and my SkyTeam membership was basically worthless for travelling within the region unless I wanted to connect at second tier cities in China).

Lately, Skyteam is picking up a lot of carriers that add no value to the alliance. Seems that they are going to quantity over quality. The reality is that most of these carriers have a very limited number new destinations and are not known for operational excellence.

In summary, Skyteam works well for me living in AMS, but if I didn't live in a Skyteam hub I wouldn't really see the point.
 
BestWestern
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:22 am

This question again.....

Service on Vietnam airlines short haul economy is superior to anything you get on Lufthansa or British Airways and vastly superior to United. Garuda offers a better regional J class from Australia than Qantas, and China Eastern is superior to Air China. Aeroflot offers Europes best business class.

It's hardly a secret that Egyptair is rubbish. Air Europa survived, Spanair didn't. Adria is on the ropes, Tarom keeps flying, Malev is gone, Czech isn't.
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HiJazzey
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:58 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
When you think of...

Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

SV may not have the level of service of the likes of SQ but it has a good safety record and a decent product thank you very much.
 
LOWS
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:16 am

Look. I hate sUA. I avoid them TATL at all costs. sCO I liked, but I'd rather be on LH or OS.

But because SZG is really only connected to TATL by LH or OS through FRA/VIE* I am pretty much wedded to UA when I am in the US.

I would love to try the new Delta, but I've not had an occasion to, since all my travel to the US is either coming from or going home to SZG. But if their service is really as good as it sounds like, I wish they would swap alliances with UA...


*Yes, I know that theoretically AB could connect me from SZG-DUS-MIA/JFK/LAX but when you need to go SZG-XXX-XXX-OKC, and neither AA or AB can book that online, why bother with the hassle?
 
VC10er
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:16 am

Quoting PHX787 (Reply 1):

What do you mean "no Sky Miles in Y"? On Delta. I don't fly them often but I know that upgrades etc are very hard to get?

And is Korean as good as the ads depict? I flew them in First about 10 years ago and was so excited...then so let down by the product. Service was good.
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OA260
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:29 am

Being Gold tier with the major three I rate them as follows.

Star Alliance 1st

Oneworld 2nd

Skyteam 3rd

If I had to choose not to renew Gold status with any of the above I would drop ST without hesitation. I actually think SV and ME have been a decent addition to the alliance especially MEA which is an under estimated carrier. The only thing that holds them back is the political situation in Lebanon.

With regards Aeroflot are they still refusing AF/KL Elites into the lounges due to an argument? Not the type of crap I want to encounter on my travels that's for sure.
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:30 am

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 8):

SV may not have the level of service of the likes of SQ but it has a good safety record and a decent product thank you very much.

I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds. I know they needed ST & all, but the fact is that unless you have a very specific reason to visit the kingdom, there's really not a lot SV can do for you.
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aerorobnz
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 10:41 am

No more than one world is these days, and whereas Skyteam is grooming second tier and third tier careers and trying to growing them into something to back up their big guns - Oneworld is being broken up by bankruptcy and other issues like QF/EK. Basically only LATAM & BA/IB are propping the whole alliance up. Star has added all the premium carriers it can and is filling in network with secondary carriers. TBH I have used all three alliances, and I don't think that there is much in them. All alliances have "halo" carriers and weaker carriers and strong regions.
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MillwallSean
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 11:02 am

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
When you think of...

Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

I fail to see the need to rank airline alliances. It will always be subjective. But as a passenger I would take Vietnam, Garuda, China airlines over any European /North American Oneworld, Skyteam or Star carrier any day of the week.
Meanwhile Saudi, China Eastern, Tarom and Aeroflot are not worse and sometimes better than the usual American or for that sake European carrier.
Aerolineas Argentinas yeah thats one big basketcase. But oneworld has Air Berlin a hybrid lowcost carrier and Star well Egyptair isnt exactly a bed of roses and neither is US Airways...

We can go on and it becomes more and more subjective.

I think most westerners struggle to understand that for a passenger its very hard to speak about world class service when we fly North american and also European airlines. Our western airlines tend to be vastly overrated by us. And if we westerners fail the service discussion we tend to retreat to safety.

Safety, well there are professional auditors for that. But none of the airlines have planes falling out of the sky so I wouldnt shiver before I boarded any of them. Air Europa has never had a fatality for example.
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HiJazzey
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:35 pm

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 12):
I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds. I know they needed ST & all, but the fact is that unless you have a very specific reason to visit the kingdom, there's really not a lot SV can do for you.

How is that in any way relevant to SV's safety record and service levels?
 
xdlx
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:42 pm

As presented in the original query; What is the criteria?

I imagine that Perks are a great incentive to remain loyal to an alliance or another.
Is it schedules? Price? Do you stay loyal to the alliance if the price is higher? The schedule not so convinient?
What else drives the customer to support one alliance over another?
 
ElPistolero
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 2:50 pm

Puzzling post, this.

In terms of FF offerings, the three are very different. In terms of safety .... well Korean had a very strange run not so long ago, AF 447 was damaging to the reputation, MS had a bizzare incident out of JFK, ET flew into weather out of BEY, SQ trying to take off from the wrong runway, AC with a pilot losing his marbles on a TATL flight in 2008...if you wanted to nitpick, you could go on and on. They're all generally safe.

Frankly, it only the FF program that matters to me in this comparison. The rest is academic. Any airline can have a really bad day - it is, after all, the perfect storm of several things going wrong in quick succession. *A has the best benefits, best redemption charts etc. That said the only major airline that can beat UA for worst in flight long haul service is AA.... and neither belong in ST. Soo....
 
hoons90
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:07 pm

Quoting VC10er (Reply 10):
And is Korean as good as the ads depict? I flew them in First about 10 years ago and was so excited...then so let down by the product. Service was good.

KE has introduced two new types of F class seats since then.
The biggest mistake made by most human beings: Listening to only half, understanding just a quarter and telling double.
 
dc9northwest
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 3:17 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

An American commenting on "world-class service of airlines" in Asia and Europe? How about some peanuts then? Or pretzels. Or nothing at all.  

Frankly the worst airlines I've flown are United and US Airways. And I've flown Bahamasair and Air Moldova (which actually craps all over the big US airlines, in both perceived safety AND actual service). Guess Star Alliance is shit, then. How about Tyrolean, whose safety demos take 50 seconds? Not very safe, right?

And oneworld is all but useless for me in Europe. British Airways, Iberia and Finnair? Great for connecting in Europe! Guess oneworld is crap then? I mean, Iberia? That's often classed as the worst in customer service.

SkyTeam is the only alliance that makes any sense for me at the moment. But then again... 90% of airlines are at least a bit crappy.
 
nethkt
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:16 pm

yes yes yes....SkyTeam if full of third rate airlines.
I don't want to fly any of the airlines in SkyTeam alliance.
The name is just wrong for the beginning.
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SInGAPORE_AIR
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:34 pm

Quoting bestwestern (Reply 7):
Service on Vietnam airlines short haul economy is superior to anything you get on Lufthansa or British Airway

I would disagree. Service on VN in my experience in Y appears to be basic, minimal and not superior at all to LH or BA. By no means worse though; it's hard to do worse than the bare basics.
Anyone can fly, only the best Soar.
 
PM
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:43 pm

I more or less understand (and perhaps agree with) where this post is coming from but I've had the opportunity to fly China Airlines a fair bit and I'd welcome them into any alliance. No complaints there.
 
tommy767
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 4:53 pm

I don't think Skyteam is THAT bad, I just think they have nothing on Star Alliance. AF, KL, DL all good. Korean is supposed to be great too.

When you really think about it, One World isnt all that great either when you factor in that Iberia is one of the pinnacle members.
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:01 pm

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 15):

How is that in any way relevant to SV's safety record and service levels?

As mentioned up thread, this isn't about Saftey per se, as that's not likely to be all that different among the carriers of a given alliance.

If I read you right, you're saying that SV isn't a second tier carrier and has a decent product. I'm saying that's not the case for the reasons mentioned already (without regard to onboard product or safety specifically; like most, I take the hollistic stance that "product" factors in every type of usefulness an airline has to offer, not just onboard service.)

Service levels, especially in that regard, would be tremendously relevant to whether or not a carrier is 2nd tier or not, within an alliance as well. I couldn't, as an example, use SV the same way I would EK to get from LHR to the South Pacific, or from JFK to BOM. I think that's what's being looked at here.
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usdcaguy
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:02 pm

The problem as I see it is not so much carrier-specific but an issue of coverage. While the US, China and Europe are very well covered, it would help immensely if ST could plug some holes such as Brazil, Germany and India, three economically critical countries. I also think DL service from NRT to CGK should be explored to connect with GA as well as efforts to lift the ban on US-BEY service so ME could offer one-stop transatlantic service to some of the oil markets in the Mideast. DL and AM should also cooperate more to grow their share of US-MX traffic (a JV might help). I think there is potential there, but the ties between the carriers are not really strong enough to realize many synergies.
 
PHX787
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:32 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
Vietnam Airlines

I have a buddy who flies for them and some other friends who are from vietnam, and I hear nothing but praise for their service in comparison to other airlines they flew.

Quoting VC10er (Reply 10):
What do you mean "no Sky Miles in Y"? On Delta. I don't fly them often but I know that upgrades etc are very hard to get?

When I fly non-sky miles on DL, it's not about the upgrades, it's about how they treat me as a passenger. Before I became silver medallion, even, they treated me like crap. Understandable, though, because they want to keep their medallion elite passengers.

But I keep telling people, the minute that I can fly from PHX-CVG direct on US (or some other airline that isn't WN) or PHX-NRT direct without having to connect in LAX or other west coast airports, I'll be moving my talents to the tempe-based airline
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AirGAbon
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:40 pm

I flew with SU during 2 years from SVO to Europe and inside Russia, I promise you, their business class service is top, with a 2x2 real seating configuration on A320s and excellent meals. Even the Economy class is good with the choice of two hot meals to Europe. The new facilities at SVO are excellent. Only thing: sometimes crew are not too much friendly, but it depends.

Air Europa is doing well and survived at the opposite of Spanair. The service is not worst than IB or Vueling. Crew are younger and more motivated than IB ones on European routes.

KQ has to upgrade the NBO facilities to become a real hub as ET does.

SkyTeam is very powerful in China: the two biggest carriers: CZ and MU and now CI in Taiwan.

OK and RO are still alive. The new OTP terminal is good, and PRG is the biggest airport in Eastern Europe (without considering Russia). PRG remains a key strategic location.

AZ: Italy is a key top-market in Europe. AZ is improving quickly.

DL offers an excellent service. AM, AF, KL, KE are also offering an excellent service.

Of course people only focus on AR, VN and GA. But Vietnam and Indonesia are two booming markets.
 
FlyingHollander
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 5:54 pm

As far as I'm concerned every alliance has some good airlines and some airlines you'd rather avoid. So no, I would definitely not consider an alliance with airlines like Delta, Air France, KLM, Korean Air and China Southern to be an alliance of third rate airlines.
If it ain't Dutch, it ain't much.
 
CapEd388
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:16 pm

Quoting dc9northwest (Reply 19):
Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

An American commenting on "world-class service of airlines" in Asia and Europe? How about some peanuts then? Or pretzels. Or nothing at all.

Why do you have to bring the guy's nationality into the conversation? If feels like you are thumbing your nose at Americans. I don't get why people have to get all personal when responding to comments.


I see this a lot on here, and frankly its kind of sad. Why cant we just have a good debate about something without it turning into a "my country versus your country" fight?

We need to be mature and stick to talking about the topic at hand.
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EddieDude
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 6:29 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 25):
DL and AM should also cooperate more to grow their share of US-MX traffic (a JV might help).

DL and AM have relaunched their relationship. DL has taken a minority stake in AM and they are working towards increasing the number of codeshare flights on each other's networks, including beyond the U.S.-Mexico market, the U.S. domestic market and the Mexican domestic market. They are also going to establish an M.R.O. joint venture. Finally, Club Premier and SkyMiles elite members will have reciprocal upgrade benefits. The U.S. and Mexico do not have open skies, so DL and AM cannot have a joint business operation or revenue-sharing cross-border alliance, but what they are doing now is the closest they can be integrated under the current status quo.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 27):
VN and GA

I have heard only praise about short haul VN service. A good friend of mine (and a.netter) who is a die-hard Star Alliance fan has raved numerous times about the crews and the catering on VN's domestic and regional flights. With respect to GA, I have recently read very surprising trip reports on here and reviews on Australian media praising GA's business class service on the A330s. Plus, I think SkyTeam was very smart in enlisting the flag carriers of two countries that will see their economies boom in the years to come.
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usdcaguy
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:07 pm

Quoting EddieDude (Reply 30):
The U.S. and Mexico do not have open skies, so DL and AM cannot have a joint business operation or revenue-sharing cross-border alliance, but what they are doing now is the closest they can be integrated under the current status quo.

Which doesn't mean much beyond code sharing and reciprocal FF benefits. I don't see a huge revenue advantage here for either carrier. Any particular reason why 2 countries must have open skies to have a JV? Why do MX and the US not have open skies?
 
Viscount724
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:21 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 25):
it would help immensely if ST could plug some holes such as Brazil, Germany and India

SkyTeam has excellent service to virtually all major cities in Germany thanks to KL and AF. I fly several times a year from GVA to various points in Germany and almost always use KL via AMS since it's such a convenient connecting hub, much more user-friendly than FRA in my experience, and while MUC is an excellent airport and LH is an excellent airline, MUC isn't well-located to serve as a hub for other cities in Germany from points west of Germany.
 
LY777
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:39 pm

Personally, I prefer Skyteam over Oneworld:
- DL is way better than AA
- S7 is worse than SU
- IB is not exactly a great airline
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ElPistolero
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:50 pm

Quoting tommy767 (Reply 23):
I don't think Skyteam is THAT bad, I just think they have nothing on Star Alliance. AF, KL, DL all good. Korean is supposed to be great too.

Nothing in what sense? *A is ahead mostly because of the strong Asia/ME contingent - NZ, SQ, TG, TK etc. The rest of the *A carriers - SAA, UA/CO, US, AC, LH, OS, LX, SN, LOT + the African carriers fall in the same general category as AF/KL, DL, BA etc. The other alliances have struggled to pick up high quality partners in Asia-Pac, but then again, SQ is as nominal a member of *A as they possibly can be without leaving - kinda like CX in OW.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 7:54 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

Maybe not world class service, but I doubt they are any less safe than airlines in other alliances... In terms of safety would pick them over most US regional airlines any day.
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
LJ
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:06 pm

Quoting usdcaguy (Reply 25):
While the US, China and Europe are very well covered, it would help immensely if ST could plug some holes such as Brazil, Germany and India, three economically critical countries

If you mean Germany domestic the answer is yes, but that´s not an important market. If you mean connections ex Germany I woould say ST has relatively good coverage. They fly to many secondary airports (though less when FMO was still on the KL routemap). Moreover, it´s not as if oneworld has better coverage ex Germany (OK they have AB which has a few domestic flights...). As for India, last time I looked none of the alliance have a partner in India (IT is suspended from oneworld). Leaves Brazil...
 
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mayor
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:16 pm

Quoting LJ (Reply 36):
Leaves Brazil...

Wasn't GOL supposed to join Skyteam?
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DocLightning
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:23 pm

I wouldn't call DL, KL, AF, or KE "third-rate" airlines. Of the US majors, DL is doing very well from a point of view of passenger satisfaction and overall financial performance, not to mention decent (albeit not stellar) labor relations. AF/KL are both major international airlines with global reach and reputation. KE is rivaling the other major Asian carriers as an Asian gateway, introducing the A380 and expanding their reach.

Every alliance has their trouble airlines, but right now I'd say that OneWorld is probably having bigger headaches than SkyTeam is.

Quoting Darksnowynight (Reply 12):
I don't think so. The problem with SV is that it's a one destination airline. Add to that the destination is a place that is difficult (and just being honest, not very desirable) to get to, and it's hard to see what value SV actually adds.

Can you transfer through on SV? You need a visa, right? Also, SV is less popular with non-Mideast passengers because there is no alcohol served aboard.

Quoting AirGabon (Reply 27):
CZ and MU and now CI in Taiwan.

How does having CZ and MU in an alliance with CI work for them?
-Doc Lightning-

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LJ
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:38 pm

Quoting mayor (Reply 37):
Wasn't GOL supposed to join Skyteam?

No indication that they´ll join other than that DL invested in GOL (but this hasn´t resulted in Skyteam membership).
 
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DarkSnowyNight
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):

Can you transfer through on SV? You need a visa, right? Also, SV is less popular with non-Mideast passengers because there is no alcohol served aboard.

I'm sure there are folks here that can answer that one better than I. But, as a general rule, not really. It's pretty much O&D, unless you're going to JED. I think if SV had their way, that may not be the case, but getting a visa into saudi is not the most practical thing to do, especially just for passing through. I know they issue visas for professional or haj reasons, but for much beyond that, it's not a simple proposition. Again, there are those who know better about these specifics here.

For me, the alcohol thing has no bearing on the decision whom I fly with. Choice is great & all, but I generally don't drink and fly. What sends me over to EK is the relative zero percent hassle factor WRT visa needs, and their network that frankly, has no peer in the region.
You Sir, are a very funny lady.
 
abrelosojos
Posts: 4049
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:40 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
Aerolineas Argentinas
Vietnam Airlines
Garuda Indonesia
Saudi Arabian Airlines
China Eastern
China Airlines
TAROM
Air Europa
Aeroflot

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.

= I personally find China Airlines excellent. They are a whole lot better than the other founding SkyTeam airlines. I have also had good luck on Aeroflot. Both airlines have made tremendous strides in safety as well. Do keep in mind the last crash was actually of Air France - whom as many know, I find rubbish.

Quoting LOWS (Reply 9):
Look. I hate sUA. I avoid them TATL at all costs. sCO I liked, but I'd rather be on LH or OS.

= Remind me again ... what is "s" here?

Saludos,
A.
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Viscount724
Posts: 18834
Joined: Thu Oct 12, 2006 7:32 pm

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:44 pm

Quoting DocLightning (Reply 38):
Can you transfer through on SV? You need a visa, right?

No, most nationalties can transit Saudi Arabia without a visa. If they're flying SV the maximum connecting time is 18 hours. For all other carriers it's 8 hours.
 
meta
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:35 am

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:46 pm

Quoting usflyer msp (Reply 4):
The core SkyTeam Airlines are fine (DL, AM, AF, KL, KE, CZ, ME, OK and even KQ) but it definitely has more questionable 2nd tier carriers than Star and Oneworld.

When you think of...

...

is safe operations and world-class service the first thought that comes to mind? I think not.


Skyteam has a fair share of airlines that are questionable, but so do OW and *A.

*A: Adria, Aegean, LOT, Ethiopian Airlines, Croatia Airlines, Blue1, Brussels Airlines, TAP, Egyptair, TACA, SAA

OW: S7, Iberia, Royal Jordanian, LAN

ST: Vietnam Airlines, MEA, Saudia, Aerolineas Argentina, Tarom, China Eastern, Aeroflot, Garuda

Star Alliance seems to have just as many if not more "questionable" airlines. The only reason people turn their heads and give praise to *A is because of its "Tier 1" airlines such as SQ, TG, OZ, LH/LX, and TK. In Oneworld CX, BA, and QF are their "Tier 1" airlines. Other than the ones I have just mentioned most of OW and *A are full of "Tier 3/questionable airlines". Skyteam on the other hand doesn't really have any Tier 1 airlines except for possibly KE. AF, KL, AZ, CZ, and CI are really "Tier 2" airlines and the rest of Skyteam is full of the "Tier 3/questionable" airlines. I am sure if Skyteam could find some "Tier 1" airlines they would have a much better reputation. Even if they can't find a SQ/CX equivalent, they certainly should not have let 9W and MH slip away.Those two along with either EY or QR could have greatly helped ST. The only real upperhand I see for Skyteam is domestic USA. IMO, DL is way better than US/AA and slightly above UA.
 
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pvjin
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RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 8:52 pm

What is so questionable about those airlines you just listed?
"Optimism is the madness of insisting that all is well when we are miserable." - Voltaire
 
meta
Posts: 207
Joined: Mon Aug 08, 2005 10:35 am

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:01 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
What is so questionable about those airlines you just listed?

The person I was quoting listed questionable airlines from SkyTeam, so I was giving a comparison of airlines from *A/OW that would seem to fit under the OP's "questionable airlines" category.
 
planejamie
Posts: 564
Joined: Thu Sep 15, 2011 8:41 pm

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:01 pm

I disagree, if anything I think SkyTeam is home to some airlines that in a few years will be up there with the likes of SQ, TG, CX, EK etc. I've never had an issue with AF, KL seem very good (granted none of these airlines might be flashy or have the best hard product, but the service is brilliant) - my experiences with AF have all been good. CDG is a little odd, but people seem to over dramatise that, AMS is a great hub from what people are saying. DL seem to be doing very well and they're rapidly upgrading their product. I'd rather fly on a DL 767 than a UA or AA 767. I used to be a fan of BA but even they're slacking in places now. Yes SkyTeam might have Aerolinas Argentinas but they're improving. None of the airlines listed as being "below standard" have had any major accident that stands out and they all are pretty modern/solid airlines!

Quoting HiJazzey (Reply 8):
SV may not have the level of service of the likes of SQ but it has a good safety record and a decent product thank you very much.

I've never had an issue with SV out of RUH, they've greatly improved over the past few years with brand new A330s/A320s and 777s. Sadly the old 747-100s/300s are gone/going but I've never really had a big issue with the product. I mean a hot meal on a 1 hour flight, name me a Star/One World airline that will do that in Economy!
 
FI642
Posts: 992
Joined: Sat Mar 12, 2005 9:48 am

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:03 pm

A comprehensive safety audit and safety standards are required for admission into SkyTeam. Certainly they would not admit a carrier who did not meet those standards.

Alliances are almost like the pre-deregulation Interlining that went on. What's old is new again
737MAX, Cool Planes for the Worlds Coolest Airline.
 
LOWS
Posts: 1194
Joined: Sun Oct 23, 2011 5:37 am

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:04 pm

Quoting abrelosojos (Reply 41):
= Remind me again ... what is "s" here?

s=subsidiary. So, flights operated by UA or CO crews and planes.
 
UALWN
Posts: 2171
Joined: Mon Jun 01, 2009 3:27 pm

RE: Is SkyTeam Alliance Of Third Rate Airlines?

Sun Sep 23, 2012 9:16 pm

Quoting pvjin (Reply 44):
What is so questionable about those airlines you just listed?

Exactly. LAN? SAA? TACA? TAP? What's questionable about them?
AT7/111/146/Avro/CRJ/CR9/EMB/ERJ/E75/F50/100/L15/DC9/D10/M8X/717/727/737/747/757/767/777/787/AB6/310/32X/330/340/380

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