LY777
Topic Author
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List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:10 am

I know this was discussed before, but maybe this would be great to have an update.

I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO
- LA: MAD-FRA
- SQ: FRA-JFK
- SQ: MOW-IAH

I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

Thanks
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David_itl
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:20 am

SQ operate MUC-MAN as well
 
sk736
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:21 am

Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Air China does MUC/ATH.
 
SCL767
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:25 am

Quoting SK736 (Reply 2):
Does LA still do MAD/FRA?

Daily with the 787-8: http://flightaware.com/live/flight/L...4/history/20140105/1415Z/LEMD/EDDF
 
B738FlyUIA
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:30 am

I'm not sure if SQ still has there S.America flight, if yes then it will be

BCN-GRU
 
rutankrd
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:35 am

In the case of the EU its going to be a loooong list if 7th freedoms included.

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

Emirates fly DXB-MXP-JFK
 
PanHAM
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:44 am

Quoting rutankrd (Reply 5):

Dominated by Ryanair/Easyjet/Vueling and Wizz !

add 8th freedom to that if you look it from that angle.

Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

7th freedom would be flights from any member state to israel, Maroc, Russia etc from states other than the Country of Registration
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SCL767
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:45 am

CA: PEK-MAD-GRU
PK: LHE-MAN-JFK, KHI-MAN-JFK
KU: KWI-LHR-JFK

[Edited 2014-01-05 03:10:07]
 
debonair
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:54 am

EK: B777 MLA-LCA

What about Ethiopian?
 
rutankrd
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 10:59 am

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

Complicated further by Schengen/Non Schengen nations.

Flights to/from UK/Ireland and Schengen territories remain very much international and subject to full document/immigration controls

However travel between UK and Ireland is free of document control (Predating Schengen)

Neither does the UK honour Schengen area VISAs.

Schengen signatories include none EU states Norway Iceland and Switzerland.
 
UALWN
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:31 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I also read that SQ flies MXP-BCN, is that right? Is that bookable?

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.
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DUSint
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:32 pm

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.
 
PanHAM
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 12:33 pm

well, Ok, but those flights are still within the single market, Schengen or not. We know that Iceland and Norway are Schengen states but not in the EU, same for switzerland with the additional exception that switzerland also has a different customs regime than the EU.


Since the freedoms the Airlines are enjoying within the single EU (aviation) market are market freedoms and Visa as well as Immigration as well as customs procedures are issues exercised by sovereign states, the market freedoms prevail. Technically, I would say that exercising the market freedom to operate from state B to state C without connecting state A does not apply.

Cabotage (8th freedom) does apply when purely domstic flights are flown in other member states.
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radone
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 2:47 pm

I think QR OTP - SOF is bookable
 
airbazar
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:10 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
Howver, the EU is a single (aviatrion) market which includes the states of Iceland, Norway and Switzerland

That makes all These flights domestic.

That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.
 
PanHAM
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 3:32 pm

Quoting airbazar (Reply 14):
That is not entirely true. That only applies to EU carriers. For foreign carriers, the EU is not a single aviation market.

well, that goes without saying. To participate in a market you have to be a (corporate) citizen of at least one of the participating countries.

Those who are not are called "third countries", like the USA. Such third carriers are restricted and certainly cannot participate on intra EU traffic, there are some exceptions which are shown up here.

US carriers had extensive 5th freedom rights to and from most European countries The fact that the US exercised sovereign rights over a part of West Berlin made PA and TW de facto European carriers on routes to and from Berlin. But that is Long time gone.
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sk736
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:44 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area countries are treated as though they were domestic passengers, the flights themselves are not domestic flights.
 
LH526
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:48 pm

Quoting DUSint (Reply 11):

As far as I know, there is also
KU FRA-GVA at least on Wednesday and Friday and return one day later. With A343 or A306.

According to recent timetable changes, that flight is most likely to disappear in 2014.
Trittst im Morgenrot daher, seh ich dich im Strahlenmeer ...
 
aznmadsci
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 4:48 pm

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
- SQ: MOW-IAH

DME-IAH to be exact.
The journey of life is not based on the accomplishments, but the experience.
 
PanHAM
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 5:28 pm

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU,

It does, the topic on which he replied to me was the European single market and it goes without saying that no third country carriers can participate in a European single market with the small exceptions we are compiling here.

These few exceptions are based on bilaters which are still in effect but will disappear once the EU has taken full authority over biletarals with third countries. Whenever that will be.
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LY777
Topic Author
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:20 pm

Thanks guys  
Quoting aznmadsci (Reply 18):

thanks
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sk736
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:29 pm

Quoting PanHAM (Reply 19):
It does,

It doesn't. Single market or not, whilst passengers may be treated as though they are domestic passengers, the flights will always be international.
 
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airbuseric
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 6:55 pm

KE ZRH-VIE
KM BRU-AMS
"The whole world steps aside for the man who knows where he is going"
 
sk736
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 7:28 pm

Quoting airbuseric (Reply 22):
KM BRU-AMS

Malta is an EU member.
 
LY777
Topic Author
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 8:15 pm

Quoting UALWN (Reply 10):

SQ does fly SIN-MXP-BCN but, as far as I know, the MXP-BCN leg is not bookable. On the other hand, SQ also flies SIN-BCN-GRU and the BCN-GRU sector is bookable.

Thanks for the info  
Flown:717,727,732,734,735,738,73W,742/744/748,752,762/2ER/763/3ER,772/77E/773/77W, 788, D8,D10,L1011, A3B2,A320,A321,A332,A343,A388
 
Viscount724
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Sun Jan 05, 2014 11:59 pm

Quoting SK736 (Reply 16):
Quoting PanHAM (Reply 6):
That makes all These flights domestic.

No it doesn't. Fights between two independent sovereign states, even those within the EU, are always international, never domestic. Whilst passengers travelling between Schengen area count

I agree. Legally they're still international flights if they leave and arrive in different countries, regardless of the EU single market or Schengen. And since Switzerland was mentioned, although it's part of Schengen it's still subject to customs controls and restrictions on how much you can bring back from any other country, including Schengen members.

Quoting LY777 (Thread starter):
I can think of:

- KU: CDG-FCO

Also KU GVA-FRA-GVA twice a week.
 
cedarjet
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Mon Jan 06, 2014 4:18 pm

Classic flight I really want to do - RIX to JFK on Uzbekistan Airways, 767-300ER from Tashkent twice a week. Not sure if this is true of the whole fleet but HY have some brand new 767s which have the 777 interior, known as the "Signature" interior by Boeing.

Definitely an unusual way to cross the pond. This is Lithuania's only transatlantic service since American Trans Air operated 757-200s scheduled JFK-BFS-RIX from 1990 to 1993 (always loved that! and speaking of fifth freedom, I wonder if they had traffic rights from BFS to RIX? I am 99% sure they did, although I am not sure there's much demand on the route…).
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
dc9northwest
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Mon Jan 06, 2014 5:13 pm

Hm... Belavia flies BUD-BEG, I think. I'm not sure if it's bookable.
 
TUGMASTER
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RE: List Of 5th Freedom Flights In Europe And Tatl

Wed Jan 08, 2014 8:15 am

Quoting cedarjet (Reply 26):

You're kidding right...?

Ireland is absolutely flooded with Lithuanians....

To be sure...!

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