Cark
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Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 12, 2017 2:22 pm

Hey people of Airliners.net,

I am hoping to one day become a licensed aircraft engineer (EASA B1) and am slowly working my way towards my licence whilst working as a Mech.

I am curious to know how involved in pushbacks engineers are at different airlines, as I have heard some of them get on the headset and speak directly to the flight deck as they are pushing back, whereas at other airlines, they let the engineers drive off just after the aircraft has closed up, thus allowing the engineers to go and finish off the post-departure admin / move onto the next flight. They then fill this pushback headsetter position with either a ramp agent / dispatcher (who typically doesn't have an engineering background).

Anyone have any insight / history working in this side of things and able to share some pros / cons of how to fill this pushbacker role?
I'm curious to know how airlines deal with this as the aircraft could have an issue during pushback and then you have to call the engineer back to the stand to see to the aircraft, but in most cases you would end up saving time by dashing off just before pushback allowing you to get to your next flight quicker.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 12:37 am

I worked Line Mtc for a few years in the US. Most airlines here don't use Mechanics for push back anymore. I worked overnight shift where most of our work occurred. We did not interact with the flight crews much. I sometimes met the flight when it landed, but usually it was already on the ground when I came to work. We covered the morning outbound flights for problems and only saw the crew if they called us out

. We did cover two inbounds in the mornings. One from LAX the other from LAS. Even with those flights I rarely interacted with the crews. After the engines shut down I would take a quick look at tires and then add start adding oil to the engines. The CFM 56 always needs oil after a transcontinental flight. By then the passengers would be off and I would go upstairs. The crew was always right behind the last passenger so usually it was a dark cockpit with hopefully an empty logbook. If they had a real problem they would call us on the radio for a meet up.

Our station had a very democratic system. As we came into the line office at the beginning of the shift we got a list of all the overnight assignments and the scheduled work for each plane . The guys on their Friday picked airplanes first, then the Thursday guys, then the Tuesday guys, and the Monday guys got the crap that was leftover. It was nice. You got to pick your poison. The end of the week was usually an easy day. The wild cards were, was there an unknown write up in the logbook, or did you happen to find something on the walk around. If you got a real mess someone on another plane would come help.
 
B777LRF
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:52 am

Aircraft mechanics are too expensive to be hung from the end of a head-set chord, with few exceptions the task is completed by ramp workers these days.
From receips and radials over straight pipes to big fans - been there, done that, got the hearing defects to prove
 
Cark
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 9:27 am

Prior to starting this topic, I was thinking... "What if an aircraft were to take a delay on pushback due to something relatively simple (in terms of engineering rectification), but with no engineer about to give it the thumbs up, the delay is prolonged because he has to be called back to the aircraft?" For example an engine seems to be dripping some sort of fluid. Here at the airport where I am currently learning as a mech, we have a pretty good culture that the ramp handlers will flag it up to cover their backs and for safety. The engineer then gets called out only for him to say "Yup, it's fuel, but it's within AMM limits" or something like that. Sometimes it can be a delay / return to stand (obviously return to stands/gates at different airports cost different amounts, but they're always pretty expensive) taking over 20-30 minutes just for an engineer to say a simple "yup". If an engineer were to be on the headset for pushback, he could give the yes / no straight away.

B777LRF's point about mechs (although I think applying to me here with EASA requirements it would have to be a licensed engineer) being too expensive to be hung from the end of a head-set cord is a good one. Are there any other cons people can think of?
 
fr8mech
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:02 pm

We (US operator) have a mechanic (AMT) on the headset for every departure. It has been decided that the minutes saved by having the mechanic on the headset, out-weighs his cost to the operation.

And, it's not typically something the mechanic notices that is he problem, it's usually something the flight crew encounters during the departure. The mechanic is readily available to provide advise, open communication to the gateway folks, defer the item, etc.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Cark
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:35 pm

fr8mech I am guessing this also reduces workload on the maintenance control centre right as a lot of the smaller issues can easily be dealt with locally by the engineer and allow for a quicker resolution. As I am not fully familiar with the FAA to EASA conversions for Engineers and Mechs, are the Mechs in the US able to sign off and defer the majority of issues which happen on pushback?
 
fr8mech
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 1:51 pm

Cark wrote:
Mechs in the US able to sign off and defer the majority of issues which happen on pushback?


In general, licensed A&P's, or as we refer to them now, Aircraft Maintenance Technicians (AMT) have airworthiness release authority for the operator's aircraft. The operator may have some certification hurdles it asks its AMT's to overcome (training, testing, etc.), but typically, the AMT can release the aircraft.

To defer an item at my operator, you must contact maintenance control. I have have worked at an operator, now defunct, where the call to maintenance control could come after departure. I'm not sure if that's still the case at any operator in the US.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Tristarsteve
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 13, 2017 6:56 pm

I worked as a ramp engineer at ARN for many years. I would say that aircraft engineers would only be seen on the headset for B787 or larger aircraft. I worked for BA, and the loader did the headset normally. I would do it only with a known problem. We had a radio in the office, and it was much more help to be called by the crew on the radio. There is very little you can do when on the headset.
Nowadays at ARN the SAS engineers look after BA, and their office is in the hangar. The procedure is that if the crew has a problem they call BA Maintrol in LHR for advice. The man in London decides what to do, and calls out the SAS Tech if required.
 
DL777200LR
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Wed Jun 14, 2017 4:14 pm

At my US airline, once the work was done or if any was done at all, no AMT would be on the headset or near the plane. If the flight crew has an issue they talk to maintenance on the maintenance radio frequency for assistance and someone will be sent out to the plane if required. If it's a minor issue and is resolved quickly it is not a delay because the plane already has an out time off the gate.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE-90 engine start.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:48 am

B777LRF wrote:
Aircraft mechanics are too expensive to be hung from the end of a head-set chord, with few exceptions the task is completed by ramp workers these days.


Hi: Airplanes are also expensive. And Pax....
Of course, it depends on the company.
Tougher I remember: AF. To start boarding, Head Set should be connected and communications w/ cockpit verified.
A mechanic may be no wearing HS but He/She should be near enough to hear Cockpit's call or to react to unsafe condition and communicate it to Cockpit
Rgds.
A "NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 19, 2017 4:55 am

And only a Mech (or a technical Crew), will tell if a liquid that is draining to ground is Fuel, Oil, Hydraulic Oil or Water,
If noise is APU stall or not and during start if engine is "torching" or in Fire.
Rgds
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Balerit
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:47 am

Doesn't make sense to me not having the engineer do his own pushback. What would happen if an engine required a manual start, or if there was a hot start or worse a tailpipe fire, a non technical person wouldn't know what to do. We have a dedicated departure section and we always did our own departures, 1 guy on small aircraft and 2 guys on B747 departures.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
StereoTechque
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 19, 2017 1:20 pm

Balerit wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me not having the engineer do his own pushback. What would happen if an engine required a manual start, or if there was a hot start or worse a tailpipe fire, a non technical person wouldn't know what to do. We have a dedicated departure section and we always did our own departures, 1 guy on small aircraft and 2 guys on B747 departures.


A technical chap on the headset will always be helpful in case of some occurrence. But aviation these days is all about saving costs as far as possible. Hence Airlines are outsourcing these jobs to Ramp Agents. Glad this is not the way where I work.
Looking California.. Feeling Minnesota.... R. I.P. Chris Cornell...
 
DL777200LR
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 19, 2017 10:34 pm

Balerit wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me not having the engineer do his own pushback. What would happen if an engine required a manual start, or if there was a hot start or worse a tailpipe fire, a non technical person wouldn't know what to do. We have a dedicated departure section and we always did our own departures, 1 guy on small aircraft and 2 guys on B747 departures.


If a manual start was required maintenance would already be aware of it so obviously they would be there to manual open the start valve during engine start. If the engine had a hot start they would notify maintenance on the radio and most likely would come back to get get where maintenance personnel would be waiting. Maintenance would only be there if required for a certain reason. Ramp agents are taught hand signals and the pilots are the ones controlling the airplane in the event of a fire and the ground personnel would inform them of a fire. JFK sees almost 200 departures in the summer, staffed at 220 mechanics just for maintenance. You would need to staff so many more mechanics in order to accommodate push backs. Also JFK has a move team that moved airplanes to remote pads and back to the gate which are not mechanics. They ride brakes and operate the APU. Not difficult training and results in lower cost for the airline.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE-90 engine start.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:03 am

StereoTechque wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Doesn't make sense to me not having the engineer do his own pushback. What would happen if an engine required a manual start, or if there was a hot start or worse a tailpipe fire, a non technical person wouldn't know what to do. We have a dedicated departure section and we always did our own departures, 1 guy on small aircraft and 2 guys on B747 departures.


A technical chap on the headset will always be helpful in case of some occurrence. But aviation these days is all about saving costs as far as possible. Hence Airlines are outsourcing these jobs to Ramp Agents. Glad this is not the way where I work.



Hello: Strongly disagree. A man on HS should have aircraft technical course, training and be a certified mechanic.
Nowadays it is possible to find anyone there, but of course, it is not the same and it is about safety.
As I pointed, it is up to the client (Operation company) to demand it or not.

You may do this exercise: ask a "Technical Chap" what is a liquid coming out from a Drain Mast at the end of aircraft, water from rear toilets or Fuel from APU, my best bet: He will not even understand your question.

Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:05 am

Aviation, the one I know, it is not about saving money, but to operate in a safely mode
rgds
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DL777200LR
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 1:46 am

I get the fact that a mechanic performing a pushback is a better option overall, however the majority of push backs are just pushing the aircraft back and clearing the pilots for engine start, disconnecting the tow bar and removing the bybass pin. This does not require a maintenance personnel to perform the function. If the flight crew has a problem which most likely will be an issue that will not be an issue viewed from the outside, such as a status message or light, talking to someone on the headset or the radio to contact maintenance makes no difference. Some international carriers at JFK who have contract maintenance have maintenance on the headset after the plane is pushed back to confirm engine clear to start and engine rotation.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE-90 engine start.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 4:55 am

DL777200LR wrote:
I get the fact that a mechanic performing a pushback is a better option overall, however the majority of push backs are just pushing the aircraft back and clearing the pilots for engine start, disconnecting the tow bar and removing the bybass pin. This does not require a maintenance personnel to perform the function. If the flight crew has a problem which most likely will be an issue that will not be an issue viewed from the outside, such as a status message or light, talking to someone on the headset or the radio to contact maintenance makes no difference. Some international carriers at JFK who have contract maintenance have maintenance on the headset after the plane is pushed back to confirm engine clear to start and engine rotation.



And You are Right.
Also, the majority of T.O. are flawless, nevertheless, Crew is trained for...
This is aviation. If nothing happen, OK
If there is a problem, better to have a educated/trained personnel on controls.
By the way, so many incidents when bypass pin is not removed or tow bar damages Nose Wheels, just because personnel did not pay attention!!

Rgds
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Balerit
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:10 am

Yip, you need someone with technical savvy, there is too much that could go wrong on a push back to trust this to a non technical person. Are you not perhaps mistakingly thinking that the push back guy is non technical? For instance at ORTIA, SAA has a dedicated foreign operator division and they only do fueling and push back of all foreign carriers and are fully qualified engineers.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:32 am

Balerit:, problem is that this function should be performed professinally, as any other. Many companies use Assistants or Low Qualificate Technicians, which is like Station is empty
If I may chose, I always be flying on fully pro companies, AF, AB, etcetc..
Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:38 am

Balerit wrote:
Yip, you need someone with technical savvy, there is too much that could go wrong on a push back to trust this to a non technical person. Are you not perhaps mistakingly thinking that the push back guy is non technical? For instance at ORTIA, SAA has a dedicated foreign operator division and they only do fueling and push back of all foreign carriers and are fully qualified engineers.


Not to much You may do when there is a malfunction in cockpit.
Procedures call for back to gate, door open, complaint open and solution or DMI
Here Fueling is made by fueling company's operator mainly???
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DL777200LR
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:49 am

Apprentice wrote:
Balerit wrote:
Yip, you need someone with technical savvy, there is too much that could go wrong on a push back to trust this to a non technical person. Are you not perhaps mistakingly thinking that the push back guy is non technical? For instance at ORTIA, SAA has a dedicated foreign operator division and they only do fueling and push back of all foreign carriers and are fully qualified engineers.


Not to much You may do when there is a malfunction in cockpit.
Procedures call for back to gate, door open, complaint open and solution or DMI
Here Fueling is made by fueling company's operator mainly???


If you think it should be a mechanic doing their own pushback, then they should be fueling all theirs own planes as well shouldn't they? A contract person doesn't know what they are doing, they are just trained in how to operate different fueling panels.
Nothing better than the sound of a 77W GE-90 engine start.
 
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Balerit
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:57 am

Refuelling an aircraft is one of the most important tasks an engineer has to perform, get it wrong and there is a disaster waiting. Our engineers do their own refueling and not to be confused with the bowser driver who only connects his hoses to the aircraft. It is up to the engineer to monitor the fuel SG as well as it's quality and correct grade. He must also ensure the tanks are filled correctly and balanced. He must also convert from litres delivered to kilograms.

I hear you though and it seems as if some airlines are cutting corners with regard to contract people, unless the requirement for contract people is to have had prior training as an aircraft maintenance engineer.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 5:17 pm

As here in "cold" Miami. Fuel spills due to high OAT temp if wing is full long time under the sun is a problem. Mech leave tanks some qty below fulll and when a/c is ready, transfer fuel back to reach normal flight config.
You must know your plane for that. And avoiding fuel spills is almost avoiding a delay and a fine by airports authorities

And that is the point Balerit, cutting corners and yes, many company are doing, for instance:
Last night flight arrive and receive Daily Check by Maintenance. Early in the morning there are no Mech for preflight departure, they just use Ramp personnel, without an aircraft training, less expensive.
Rgds
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Balerit
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 8:22 pm

Sorry but that would contravene the air regulations, here in South Africa there are strict rules as to who can work on aircraft and a minimum time on type of I think 2 years, plus a host of other requirements.
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strfyr51
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 10:27 pm

Cark wrote:
fr8mech I am guessing this also reduces workload on the maintenance control centre right as a lot of the smaller issues can easily be dealt with locally by the engineer and allow for a quicker resolution. As I am not fully familiar with the FAA to EASA conversions for Engineers and Mechs, are the Mechs in the US able to sign off and defer the majority of issues which happen on pushback?

Right now at United? it's about 60-40 in favor of Maintenance control. It might be changing in the future, but it's this way now.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Tue Jun 20, 2017 11:15 pm

Cark, in my understanding, it depennds of the company's regulations (GMM)
Long time since I moved from there but, when doing Third Part On-Call Mx, You should ask authorization from MCC even for a seat cover replacement (spares were carried o/b). Theese were only US's companies.
At the same time, same mech was authorized to sign a Release to Service in a major european company.
Rgds
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fr8mech
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:53 pm

What it comes down to is what the company wants to do, and sell to the regulatory authority (since the process will go into the GMM or GOM). There are enormous benefits to having an AMT on the headset during the pushback/departure sequence. It is up to the operator to decide whether a shortened or eliminated delay is worth hanging a $50+/hour AMT on the end of the cord on every departure.

My operator has decided they want an AMT at every departure. Most others, in the US don't.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 5:06 am

Cark, Balerit, DL777200LR: It looks that fr8mech works for what I use to call a Safe, Pro and Follower Rules, company.
fr8mech:, Very well and "healthy" envy!!!
Rgds
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fr8mech
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 11:22 am

Apprentice wrote:
Cark, Balerit, DL777200LR: It looks that fr8mech works for what I use to call a Safe, Pro and Follower Rules, company.
fr8mech:, Very well and "healthy" envy!!!
Rgds


No, I work for a company that has looked at the economics of the issue and decided to go with the option that puts an AMT on the headset for ever departure. That doesn't make us any safer, more professional or "rule followers", especially since we set that particular rule. That particular rule can go away with the stroke of a pen, though the union would fight it, and lose; and it would not diminish our safety or professionalism.
When seconds count...the police are minutes away.
 
Dalmd88
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 12:56 pm

So to do push backs with an AMT we would need a staff of AMTs at every station. DL has about 30 domestic line MTC stations. We would need to triple that number to have AMTs in every station that mainline flies to. Many only to support 2-3 flights a day. That is a lot of AMTs sitting on headsets for routine flights. Our dispatch reliability in regards to Mtc is very high. Last year I think we topped over 200 days without a Mtc cancel in a row. Adding all those extra Mtc stations and increasing staffing at many of the existing stations would not be an economical benefit. We seem to be doing pretty good with our system.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:12 pm

Dalmd88 wrote:
So to do push backs with an AMT we would need a staff of AMTs at every station. DL has about 30 domestic line MTC stations. We would need to triple that number to have AMTs in every station that mainline flies to. Many only to support 2-3 flights a day. That is a lot of AMTs sitting on headsets for routine flights. Our dispatch reliability in regards to Mtc is very high. Last year I think we topped over 200 days without a Mtc cancel in a row. Adding all those extra Mtc stations and increasing staffing at many of the existing stations would not be an economical benefit. We seem to be doing pretty good with our system.

I do not see it thar way. Mechanic in charge of Flight will be on the apron since Arrival to a/c Departure, except of course going to office for spares, or references..
Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:22 pm

Fr8mech, with all due respect, must of the companies only calculate how many bugs they will save having no mech on Head Set. The fact that your had make that calculation and decided to keep a mech on HS. IMHO make operation safe and yes, more pro: A professional is at both ends of communication hardware.
If company decide to remove A&P on headset from departures, We will revisite this topic
Rgds
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Balerit
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:30 pm

At SAA they have line stations with crews operating around the clock. Should an aircraft go to an overborder non line station and there is no reciprocal agreement with the home airline to do line checks and departures, a 'flying spanner' or travelling tech will go with the aircraft to sign the technical log. On rare occasions the captain can sign the logbook. Our engineers at certain line stations will do the line transit checks and departures for our opposition airlines :) Also, SAAT, does the heavy maintenance on all our opposition airlines, hows that for behind the scenes co-operation.
Licensed Aircraft Maintenance Engineer (retired).
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 1:32 pm

Out of memory, a long time ago, around 1990, Tu-154 (similar configuration that B727, started all 3 engines but have overspeed indication on Eng # 2 starter. Crew ask ground which answer was: I don't know, this is my first time here. Soy the pulled abnormal Check List who call to pull indication's C/B "for the rest of the flight" and departed. Overspeed was real, Starter got into fire, them Engine... at the end, an accident, everyone o/b died. There were clear mistakes on AChecklist, but, a knoweledge mech on HS....
Rgds
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Dalmd88
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 4:45 pm

Apprentice wrote:
Dalmd88 wrote:
So to do push backs with an AMT we would need a staff of AMTs at every station. DL has about 30 domestic line MTC stations. We would need to triple that number to have AMTs in every station that mainline flies to. Many only to support 2-3 flights a day. That is a lot of AMTs sitting on headsets for routine flights. Our dispatch reliability in regards to Mtc is very high. Last year I think we topped over 200 days without a Mtc cancel in a row. Adding all those extra Mtc stations and increasing staffing at many of the existing stations would not be an economical benefit. We seem to be doing pretty good with our system.

I do not see it thar way. Mechanic in charge of Flight will be on the apron since Arrival to a/c Departure, except of course going to office for spares, or references..
Rgds

For domestic stations there is little need for an AMT to touch the aircraft during a normal turn. If the crew has an issue with the plane, they call. One AMT can work multiple gates. In ATL alone we would need a lot more AMT's to staff each gate all three shifts. Our costs would go through the roof with very little gained. Modern airliners just don't need the constant attention like those in the 60's and 70's.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sat Jun 24, 2017 7:42 pm

Just to be clear, I do not like to stay near a/c for all transit time, but I do not agree on "Modern Airlines.." IMHO what is modern is cockpit computers suite, in fact You may know if incoming plane will even need Engine Oil while plane is still flying. Besides that, everything is the same, a mechanic is "on duty" watching for a plane like before and assuring crew that it is safe to fly

Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sun Jun 25, 2017 7:09 am

Hi: Back to Russian airplane: http://aviation-safety.net/database/rec ... 19940103-2
What is not written in a-s.net is Voice recorder transcription, in which Ground Technician said cleary when asked: " I don;t know, I'm here first time"
Rgds
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sun Jun 25, 2017 4:49 pm

Apprentice wrote:
Just to be clear, I do not like to stay near a/c for all transit time, but I do not agree on "Modern Airlines.." IMHO what is modern is cockpit computers suite, in fact You may know if incoming plane will even need Engine Oil while plane is still flying. Besides that, everything is the same, a mechanic is "on duty" watching for a plane like before and assuring crew that it is safe to fly

Rgds


Quite simply, in the US, requiring a mechanic to be at every airplane prior to every departure, would be the end of most small stations that see regional jets. A mechanic would be of no use in most stations I fly to, as in a 20 minute turn, they simply wouldn't do anything.
From my cold, dead hands
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:05 pm

This a/c is been considered a Mediun range a/c, Doing flights covered here.with B757 A321. It is not a regional jet.
Miami is not a small station...
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sun Jun 25, 2017 8:36 pm

Apprentice wrote:
This a/c is been considered a Mediun range a/c, Doing flights covered here.with B757 A321. It is not a regional jet.
Miami is not a small station...


So regional jets aren't real airliners? Or aren't important enough? Or just are better aircraft because they don't require a self serving MX trying to create jobs for the lazy mechanics? Which is it?
From my cold, dead hands
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Sun Jun 25, 2017 10:11 pm

I did not say that. Please note your previous post: "... most small stations that see regional jets.."
And for the records, I do believe every plane start/push back and departure should be audited by an experience, qualified on the type mechanics.

Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:21 am

There was another infamous INCIDENT. When AF A320 departing CDG, no one on Head Set, have 1 CFM engine leaking fuel.
Nobody was in place to alert the pilots, and plane left apron. I do not remember well but I believe, while on line for TO. behind plane's crew alerted AF a/c and engine was S/D with subsequent QRP.
This was around 2000 and had an Happy End
Rgds (Sorry, no much time to search for it now)
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jetblueguy22
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:37 am

Apprentice wrote:
There was another infamous INCIDENT. When AF A320 departing CDG, no one on Head Set, have 1 CFM engine leaking fuel.
Nobody was in place to alert the pilots, and plane left apron. I do not remember well but I believe, while on line for TO. behind plane's crew alerted AF a/c and engine was S/D with subsequent QRP.
This was around 2000 and had an Happy End
Rgds (Sorry, no much time to search for it now)

And how many thousands of other flights without a mechanic went off without a Hitch?
Look at sweatpants guy. This is a 90 million dollar aircraft, not a Tallahassee strip club
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:38 am

I believe it was this: August 24, 1997, an Air France A320, F-GHGH, but I have not time to check.
Sorry
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asqx
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:48 am

It's doubtful a mechanic will notice anything during push back that wouldn't have been found during the walk around or is fixable without requiring tools or a logbook entry. Critical things, like open compartments, leaking fluids, or fires don't require an engineer's certification to see and report to the crew on the headset and except for closing a panel can't be fixed without a return to gate, reopening the door, and documenting the logbook.

If I notice something or get a warning in the cockpit during pushback, I'm gonna stop the plane and get out the QRH (and perform any required memory items and checklists). After completing the documented procedure, I will either return to the gate and contact local maintenance or continue to my destination as directed by the QRH and/or after consulting maintenance control and speaking to a mechanic who makes reference to the appropriate maintenance manuals. I don't care how well trained or experienced he is, a mechanic is no more or less suceptible to making a mistake as the poorly trained ramp agent. Unless he has the approprtiate AMM in front of him to verify, I don't trust a mechanic to know exactly what to do in any kind of abnormal situation, precicely because it's not normal. Plus, very few mechanics are dedicated to only one make and model of plane. The likelyhood of a mechanic making an error is compounded by the fact that many mechanics work on multiple types of planes in the same day and may give bad advice if done without consulting the appropriate reference becuase the mechanic remembers the solution but for the wrong plane.

Mechanics (or engineers if you prefer) are not perfect. They are just as likely to over fuel, misfuel, damage tow bars and landing gears, forget to remove pins, or make mistakes in aircraft servicing as any ramp agent. In fact, and this is purely anecdotal, but I find mechanics more likely to make simple, stupid mistakes precisely because they assume they know better when they in fact do not.
 
Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 1:51 am

[/quote] And how many thousands of other flights without a mechanic went off without a Hitch?[/unquote]

Hi:
I'm agree. Statistics show that w/o mech. it is almost always possible for a plane to Push-Back, Start Engines and initiated Taxi (w/o a Hitch) and much less expensive.

My disagreement with Mr. Statistics is that, only one accident, with loss of life and/or plane it's enough.
Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:00 am

asdx, hi:
I agree that mechanics are not perfects. Please note that I'm for a "Qualified on the type and Trained" mech to be on HS.
I do not agree in "mechanic will notice anything during push back that wouldn't have been found during the walk around "
In AF example, Fuel Engine Leak was noticeable ONLY while, during Start, Fuel S/O level is placed in "ON" (Open position).
At that moment, most of the Engine Fuel System will be pressurized, and, should a Leak arises, it will be conducted to an Engine drain Mast.
Any mech know that liquid coming from Engine Drain Mast will be, only: Engine Fuel, Engine Oil, Hydraulic Oil. He will alert Pilots on HS and, normal will be to shut down this Engine and come back to Parking position.
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:08 am

.... And in the Russian example, it was determined that Air Starter Valve was broken and part of it blocked Air Shutoff valve, keeping Air Starter running all the time. Again, not an " ..This is the first time here.." but any experienced mech. will notice the unmistakable Starter noise continuously, (like a Dog's Howls) and also would alert pilots.
It is not about to check the manuals, fix or to defer, it is just about Stop a plane not in airworthiness conditions to flight.
Rgds
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Apprentice
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Re: Engineers Involvement During Pushback

Mon Jun 26, 2017 2:14 am

(Sorry) Air to Engine Air Starter will be directed ONLY, when, everything is ready, doors are closed, "before engine start" Check list is performed by the crew and, correspondent switches are selected to "Start" and "Eng 2", So, also unable to notice during preflight walk around by Crew.
Rgds
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