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mmx747
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Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 3:52 am

(I guess I'm too lazy to google it so I'm asking it here instead :D )

How many pilots and other 'crew members' are onboard on lets say a G650 or G550 on a 10h+ flight? Are there crew rest areas available on these types of aircraft?
 
NASBWI
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:14 am

My guess would be no: operators of such aircraft fall under different FARs, so rest requirements vary greatly than what you'd see at a part 121 carrier.

It is entirely possible that FA's and pilots can be required to work more hours in a single day than those of a scheduled carrier.
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B777LRF
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:56 am

NASBWI wrote:
My guess would be no: operators of such aircraft fall under different FARs, so rest requirements vary greatly than what you'd see at a part 121 carrier.

It is entirely possible that FA's and pilots can be required to work more hours in a single day than those of a scheduled carrier.


Guessing will often lead to wrong conclusions, and in this case you couldn't be more wrong. Besides, FAR is just one of many, many regulations of FTL and only applies to US registered aircraft.

The big biz jets are mostly fitted with a crew rest compartment, and usually take 3 pilots on +10 hour missions. Cabin is a bit different, and it's standard for +10 hour missions to carry a single cabin crew member.

Here is a typical layout of a G550; you'll fine more or less the same in a GLX or large Falcon:
Image

Carrying an extra pilot is common sense from a safety point of view, and owners of these aircraft are highly safety conscious. Plus, they are insanely rich and can afford to have an extra pilot onboard.
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chrisair
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 6:21 am

B777LRF wrote:
Plus, they are insanely rich and can afford to have an extra pilot onboard.


They won’t be rich if they have to haul around extra pilots. :lol:

Jk
 
Prost
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:18 am

I have a friend who is a FA for corporate. No crew rest for her, she details the galley when there is nothing left to do.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 7:19 am

chrisair wrote:
B777LRF wrote:
Plus, they are insanely rich and can afford to have an extra pilot onboard.


They won’t be rich if they have to haul around extra pilots. :lol:

Jk


In the grand scheme of things, paying a couple of thousand dollars more to have a 3rd pilot onboard is a drop in the bucket and yes, 99.9999999999% of operators would much rather pay tht than try to have a 2 man crew work a 10+ hour flight.
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 8:41 am

It would be extremely silly to cut on safety for the sake of saving a tiny bit of money. My understanding is that corporate bizjet departments supporting their CEOs, or the folk hired to provide a service to a rich individual are not silly.
 
tjh8402
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 5:45 pm

I don't know what the specific regs are, but crew rests are options on most large bizjets. I believe they may be required for Part 135 flights over a certain length. I am thinking it kicks in around the 8 to 12 hour mark because they are not offered on G450s but they are on G550. I believe it's the same on a global 5000 versus 6000 .

I should add that once you are talking about flight departments that operate new G650s, GLEX, Falcons, etc, you are generally talking about operations that take safety pretty seriously. They won't just look at minimum government regs, but next level up (for example 135 compliance even if a 91 operation), industry standards (NBAA), not to mention it's not uncommon for insurance requirements to be stricter than government.
 
dxBrian
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Fri Sep 22, 2017 11:34 pm

Part 91 has flight time, duty time and rest limitations. Parts 91.1057, .1059 and .1061 apply. A two man crew is limited to 10 hours of flight time. anything over that would require an augmented crew or a rest stop. A 3 pilot crew can go to 12 hours flight time, and a 4 pilot crew up to 16 hours.
 
26point2
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sat Sep 23, 2017 1:54 am

Ummmm. No. Please check your facts before posting.

You are quoting FAR part 91K designed to regulate fractionals such as NetJets and XOjet and the like. They operate under Part 91 rules but are structured more like a 135 aoperator so Subpart K was born...FAR 91.1001-.1443. The flight and duty time regs you quote have nothing to do with traditional 91 operators.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sat Sep 23, 2017 2:26 am

Correct. 91K isn't Part 91.

Here's a personal opinion based on years operating large cabin business jets--none of them have the cabin space for anything like a real crew rest bunk. Only one, so 3-4 pilots have to share; if you make an allowance for augmenting the F/A, you have 5 people sharing one bunk. Bunk beds have been designed, but they make sleeping on a submarine seem like the Ritz. With a forward galley, "rest" periods are often right when galley activities are in progress. You are only separated by a curtain. Oh, if the agt stateroom is being used for passenger bedroom; the others are forced to use the fwd lav, more noise..

At the 10-hour point, just land and change crews. Years of augmented C-5 trips with real bunk rooms proved augmenting crews just makes for more tired people.

A lot depends on schedule, too. I did an augmented 17-hour day with a fuel stop in Yellowknife. Ever try sleeping at 2 pm after an 8 am wake-up? It's impossible. Landed at 11pm at home, felt tired but fine. I've done several 12+ hour flights, non-stop, do duty day was right at 14 hours--fine. If you wake up at normal time, fully acclimated and finish at normal bed time.

GF
 
chrisair
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sat Sep 23, 2017 6:08 pm

jetwet1 wrote:

In the grand scheme of things, paying a couple of thousand dollars more to have a 3rd pilot onboard is a drop in the bucket and yes, 99.9999999999% of operators would much rather pay tht than try to have a 2 man crew work a 10+ hour flight.


I think you might have missed the "JK" and the :lol: at the end of my post.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sat Sep 23, 2017 8:44 pm

chrisair wrote:
jetwet1 wrote:

In the grand scheme of things, paying a couple of thousand dollars more to have a 3rd pilot onboard is a drop in the bucket and yes, 99.9999999999% of operators would much rather pay tht than try to have a 2 man crew work a 10+ hour flight.


I think you might have missed the "JK" and the :lol: at the end of my post.


Yep, totally missed it, sorry.

I've worked for two companies that operated private jets, in both cases the majority of the flights were in the 4-5 hour range, for my current company long haul is 99% commercial, my previous company it was the other way around, the owner of the company had is Global, a weekend trip to Europe wasn't that rare, about the only person he wouldn't argue with was the pilot, anything over 8 hours and we were taking a 3rd pilot, end of story, of course every operation is different, but when it comes to health and safety, billionaires/multi millionaires tend to really value their lives as such, the cost of a 3rd pilot is an acceptable cost.
 
b747400erf
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sat Sep 23, 2017 9:43 pm

Operators do not choose to take the max amount of pilots they can fit, they take the least amount insurance and regulations allows them to.
 
Falcon Flyer
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sun Sep 24, 2017 1:58 am

The Global Express I fly does have a crew rest area and is pretty functional. We use 3 pilots for any legs above 10 hours, on occasion we'll pre-position pilots for crew changes if the trip is multi-leg, and the passengers are on a tighter schedule. Earlier this year we did the US West to South Africa and back via Cabo Verde with an overnight, longest leg was the last one back from Sal at 11+25 and it was nice to be able to take a break a few hours into it. As far as flight and duty time requirements, most higher-end, long-haul corporate flight departments abide by limits that generally mirror, or come pretty close to FAR 135 or 91K regulations.
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Max Q
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sun Sep 24, 2017 4:50 am

Interesting replies regarding the corporate and vip world

There seems to be an assumption that most of the wealthy types that own these private jets have no hesitation in adding extra pilots when needed, that safety overrides any concerns about extra cost


And nothing could be further from the truth. A friend of mine is a pilot for a vip operation using a BBJ and they never carry an extra pilot regardless of how long the duty day is


Exhaustion is just a way of life. If you don’t like it you know where the door is and their flight department is hardly unique


Plenty of cheap, uncaring billionaires, look at trump
The best contribution to safety is a competent Pilot.
 
jetwet1
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:16 am

As I said, every operation is different, in my case, the first company his global was far more comfortable than any commercial aircraft, so taking it long haul was not an issue and as I said above, (and have said before in these topics) the chief pilot is ex military, he doesn't take any BS from the owner, if it's safe, he will do it, if not, it isn't happening and if we needed a 3rd pilot (in his opinion) we were taking a 3rd pilot. I am sure there are some flight dept. that push the limits, but as I said above, for the extra couple of grand, it really seems like a no brainer.

Max Q wrote:

Plenty of cheap, uncaring billionaires, look at trump


Sure there are, but they do care about one thing....Themselves.....
 
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AirlineCritic
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Sun Sep 24, 2017 7:56 am

Max Q wrote:
Plenty of cheap, uncaring billionaires, look at trump


Point taken.

jetwet1 wrote:
Sure there are, but they do care about one thing....Themselves.....


They do, but I guess the issue is that besides being uncaring, sometimes they can also be not so smart about some things, or not respecting expert advice.

So yeah, I guess I see that happening. I still think that properly funded corporate department will do the right thing.
 
bibi619
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 1:51 pm

We have two pilots on duty for a 10hr or less flights segments and hire a contract pilot if we are doing lets say New York - Johannesburg routes. The other option is having a second in command officer with very low time and he will come into fray during cruise in those long flight segments. Problem solved
 
foxxray
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:17 pm

Max Q wrote:
Interesting replies regarding the corporate and vip world

There seems to be an assumption that most of the wealthy types that own these private jets have no hesitation in adding extra pilots when needed, that safety overrides any concerns about extra cost


And nothing could be further from the truth.


I fully agree.

I've been working within corporate activity for the last 10 years, and in most cases, business jets (or props and helos) owners will try to have as few pilots as possible (in accordance with the regulations... and sometimes not) !

If those wealthy people were only caring about their "security" and not about their bank account, we won't see any jet being operated with only one pilot, even if many are SP certified (CJ, PRM1, E55P, ...).
Why do we see safety pilots (so non rated pilots) on light jets and turboprops ? Because it cost far less (and sometimes nothing) compared to a second pilot.

Of course, you can find some great owners / opertors, but it is far from being the majority.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 4:25 pm

Max Q wrote:
Interesting replies regarding the corporate and vip world

There seems to be an assumption that most of the wealthy types that own these private jets have no hesitation in adding extra pilots when needed, that safety overrides any concerns about extra cost


And nothing could be further from the truth. A friend of mine is a pilot for a vip operation using a BBJ and they never carry an extra pilot regardless of how long the duty day is


Exhaustion is just a way of life. If you don’t like it you know where the door is and their flight department is hardly unique


Plenty of cheap, uncaring billionaires, look at trump


Tump? I can't speak for how he operates now, and I doubt that he does many 10+ hour legs but the previous owner did a lot of 10 to 12+ hour legs so the airplane is equipped with double bunks, 4 articulated club seats, private head and galley for the crews. Usually 2 or 3 FA's and 3 pilots. I believe nothing has changed other than the fact that he rides in a 747 these days:)
 
foxxray
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:21 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Tump? I can't speak for how he operates now, and I doubt that he does many 10+ hour legs but the previous owner did a lot of 10 to 12+ hour legs so the airplane is equipped with double bunks, 4 articulated club seats, private head and galley for the crews. Usually 2 or 3 FA's and 3 pilots. I believe nothing has changed other than the fact that he rides in a 747 these days:)


Hard to compare a 757 with G650/GLEX/FA7X/8X !
Cabin volume must be at leat 5 times bigger. There is plenty of room for a decent crew rest.
Plus, you said that standard crew was 3 pilots and 2/3 FA's ? Where do you want extra crew (3 or 4) to seat during T/O and LDG ? One on the jumpseat and the others on his laps ?
Previous owner was flying 12+ hours legs on a 757 ?

Crew rest is an option for all large cabin, long range bizjet.
I don't have any data, but this option is far more present on aircraft flying commercial than aircraft flying private exclusively.
A little off topic but in Europe, 50% of long range business jets flights are less that 1h30 and 75% less than 3hrs.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:53 pm

The US average for large cabin bizjets is 2.5 hours.

GF
 
BravoOne
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Re: Pilots & FAs on 'Long-Haul' Private Flights?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:02 pm

foxxray wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Tump? I can't speak for how he operates now, and I doubt that he does many 10+ hour legs but the previous owner did a lot of 10 to 12+ hour legs so the airplane is equipped with double bunks, 4 articulated club seats, private head and galley for the crews. Usually 2 or 3 FA's and 3 pilots. I believe nothing has changed other than the fact that he rides in a 747 these days:)


Hard to compare a 757 with G650/GLEX/FA7X/8X !
Cabin volume must be at leat 5 times bigger. There is plenty of room for a decent crew rest.
Plus, you said that standard crew was 3 pilots and 2/3 FA's ? Where do you want extra crew (3 or 4) to seat during T/O and LDG ? One on the jumpseat and the others on his laps ?
Previous owner was flying 12+ hours legs on a 757 ?

Crew rest is an option for all large cabin, long range bizjet.
I don't have any data, but this option is far more present on aircraft flying commercial than aircraft flying private exclusively.
A little off topic but in Europe, 50% of long range business jets flights are less that 1h30 and 75% less than 3hrs.


The airplane held 110,000# 12+45 hours range. Flight attendants sat in pax seats. Part 125 with a Part 91 LOA.

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