Newark727
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Smallest airports useable by light jets

Tue Nov 28, 2017 4:27 pm

So I had some time to kill yesterday and looked at some of my local airports on flightaware. It looks like a Cessna 510 Citation Mustang visited Corona (AJO,) Catalina (AVX,) and Fullerton (FUL.) The common theme between these three is that their runways are all 3,200 feet or shorter. Is this flightaware making a mistake, or can the Cessna 510 actually use these runways safely? I've visited all of these airports and never seen any pure jet types using them.
 
Flow2706
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Joined: Sat Jan 28, 2017 7:20 pm

Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Tue Nov 28, 2017 5:11 pm

I have never flown light Jets (I went straight from the Seminole to the A320 after flight school...), but I have seen Citation Jets and Phenoms landing and taking off at Mainz (EDFZ) many times. The runway is 1000x30m, so roughly the same length...so it seems to be working fine. It makes sense considering that a 66 ton A320 uses around 1100m of runway for landing considering more or less perfect piloting, usage of maximum available brakes and no margin for error (obviously you would have to add a lot or margins, typically at least 15% if considering to divert there in flight, but even then it would still be tight) - so the much light Citation Jet should have no problems with this kind of runway. It should be possible to get an overview of the distance actually needed from the FCOM of the type.
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Tue Nov 28, 2017 7:46 pm

I watched a sovereign go into Friday Harbor a while back. That was impressive.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 1:36 am

Be careful, the Mustang is a Part 23 plane and can use “light twin” type performance planning. Cessna, I think, publishes both 23 and 25 performance data.

GF
 
trijetsonly
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 7:55 am

I've seen regular operations of a Citation II on a 680m / ~2230ft runway.
Happy Landings
 
gloom
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 9:46 am

Depends on what you mean by "light jet". If Yak40 qualifies, you might end up with 2000ft grass runway, IIRC.

Cheers,
Adam
 
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zeke
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:58 am

The Falcon 900 will get on and off a short grass runway.
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kurtverbose
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 11:50 am

zeke wrote:
The Falcon 900 will get on and off a short grass runway.


Won't it burn the grass?
 
gloom
Posts: 170
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 2:04 pm

kurtverbose wrote:
Won't it burn the grass?


Not really. High mounted engines, turbojet, where gas temperature is not that high outside of the engine, and it starts moving quite quick, so exposure is not long at any given point. Plus, usually the grass is not really quick to burn, they contain quite a lot of water usually (expect on dry weather periods).

Cheers,
Adam
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 4:25 pm

A DA900 can operate on grass? I find that hard to believe given, it’s ACN at a reasonable weight is 17, the main tire pressure is 200psi and it has an operating limitation for hard surfaces.

The Ciatation II was almost certainly operating in violation of the AFM. I had 2,500 hours on them and the shortest field length was about 2,800 ft.

GF
 
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zeke
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 6:58 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
A DA900 can operate on grass? I ftind that hard to believe given, it’s ACN at a reasonable weight is 17, the main tire pressure is 200psi and it has an operating limitation for hard surfaces.

The Ciatation II was almost certainly operating in violation of the AFM. I had 2,500 hours on them and the shortest field length was about 2,800 ft.

GF


Yes, but I must admit that was a military user. Grass runway capability was a feature of the Falcon 10, 20, and 50 as well (required a kit to be installed), however I think only one Falcon 50 ever had the mod embodied.

Almost every citation can safely operate in and out of 825 m (just under 2800 ft) as that was the length of runway available at Ganderkesee (EDWQ) the home of the Cessna dealer in Germany.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
26point2
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Wed Nov 29, 2017 10:24 pm

My 5 type ratings are in various sizes of biz jets. IAI-1125 to Global Express...and all those are limited to “hard surface runways”. Seems to me the take off/landing performance data would be hard to quantify on grass runways. Wet vs dry grass would make a huge difference. I’m sure some biz jets are certified for grass surface but nothing I am familiar with.
 
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zeke
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Thu Nov 30, 2017 1:00 am

The Westwind does have a gravel kit option (eg VH-ZYH), and you will find a number of Challenger 604s with gravel kits, like those operated previously by Transport Canada and the Danish Air Force.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
shamrock137
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Thu Nov 30, 2017 10:11 pm

26point2 wrote:
I’m sure some biz jets are certified for grass surface but nothing I am familiar with.


There are a few with gravel kits that can be installed, additionally, not a current aircraft, but the new Pilatus PC-24 will have performance numbers for gravel and grass.
Time to spare? Go by air!
 
BravoOne
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Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Fri Dec 01, 2017 1:06 am

Many of the early series Lear Jets had gravel kit which as I recall did not involve much in the way of mods. The B737 also has the gravel kit as an option. I have seen Lear Jet 20 series operate in and out of 3,000 SL runways.
 
GalaxyFlyer
Posts: 298
Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Smallest airports useable by light jets

Fri Dec 01, 2017 3:29 am

Bravo One

I’d bet the Lear 20-series operations on 3,000’ were in violation of the AFM performance, too.

GF

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