cpr05
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Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:51 pm

At jfk and ATL the arrival runway is both shorter than the departure runway. 31L and 31R at jfk and 9L and 9R at ATL


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sixtyseven
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Mon Dec 18, 2017 11:55 pm

It’s not most of the time.

The takeoff runway will likely be longer in a close in parallel operation. Like ATL, LAX as well.
Last edited by sixtyseven on Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:01 am, edited 1 time in total.
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mikejepp
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:02 am

In these examples, and others, all of the runways are of adequate length for arrivals and departures. Any runway over 8000ft or so is enough for most operations on most aircraft, takeoff or landing, as long as the runway is dry and the airport isn't hot and high.

Therefore, arrival and departure runways are chosen by the airport and airspace configuration. What makes the most sense for winds, other airspace constraints, taxi routes, etc.

If an aircraft needs a different or longer runway, it is requested and almost always accommodated, though sometimes with a delay.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:34 am

cpr05 wrote:
At jfk and ATL the arrival runway is both shorter than the departure runway. 31L and 31R at jfk and 9L and 9R at ATL
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I'm a little confused with what you're asking. Arrival runways are generally shorter than departing runways, and that is the case at the airport examples you provided. The reason being is that departing aircraft are heavier and need more runway in generate the necessary lift from their takeoff roll. Landing aircraft are lighter and don't need as much runway length to stop. That's the case at JFK using the 31s (31R, the landing runway, is shorter than 31L) and at ATL using the 9s (9R, the landing runway, is shorter than 9L).

The only major airports I can think of offhand that primarily use the shorter runways for departures are SFO using the 1s for takeoffs and the longer 28s for landings, BOS in a few of their configurations and PHL when using the 9s.
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:38 am

Planes are much lighter when they land due to fuel burn compared to take off. As a result, need less runway.
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:53 am

There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.
 
Flightsimboy
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 12:54 am

cpr05 wrote:
At jfk and ATL the arrival runway is both shorter than the departure runway. 31L and 31R at jfk and 9L and 9R at ATL


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Your heading says "Why is the departure runway shorter than the arrival runway?"...comment above says "arrival runway is both shorter than the departure"...At YYZ Rwy 5/23 is the main runway for long haul flights to Asia. It is the longest runway. Arrivals can be on this too but are also on 6/24 L&R which are shorter.
 
sixtyseven
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:24 am

The takeoff runways are usually the inboard of a pair of a close parallel set. The reason for the departure runway being longer has more to do with having to stop after rejecting a takeoff. Not because of weight.
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crownvic
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:33 am

LAS perfect example. The departure runway 99% of the time is the longer runway, so opposite of OP's comment..
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:36 am

32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 6:48 am

CDG is a very good example of this, the outer runways are shorter and are used for landings.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:02 am

32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


Most airports with multiple parallel runways use the inner runway(s) for departures and the outer ones for arrivals. It may not be a written rule but it's standard practice and makes the most sense.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:14 am

In my experience, with the exception of HNL, which uses 8R for most departures and 8L for most arrivals, I’ve found that departures are typically on the closer runway while arrivals are on a runway farther away from the terminal. But I think most importantly, a longer runway gives a departing aircraft more room to abort takeoff, which can save lives. But there is an exception to the longer runway being for takeoffs, and this is more for efficient flow than anything, but at PHX, 26/8 which I’ve never seen a departure from (doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen) is longer than 25R/7L, the primary departure runway.
Speaking of runways, I was travelling on AS 447 last Thursday from LAX to SEA. I’m accustomed to taxiing to 24L for the northbound departure however we departed from 25R. Any possible explanation?
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:32 am

mikejepp wrote:
Therefore, arrival and departure runways are chosen by the airport and airspace configuration. What makes the most sense for winds, other airspace constraints, taxi routes, etc.


This is the case at ZRH, where noise abatement governs runway usage. Most of the time, the 3300 m RWY 14 is used for arrivals, while the 2500 m RWY 28 for departures (and the 3700 m RWY 16 for aircraft that are very heavy or depart in specific directions). However, at certain times (usually on weekend afternoons), RWY 28 is used for arrivals and 32 for departures. There are other configurations in the early morning, with RWY 34 being used for arrival and so on...
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:58 am

QXAS wrote:
In my experience, with the exception of HNL, which uses 8R for most departures and 8L for most arrivals, I’ve found that departures are typically on the closer runway while arrivals are on a runway farther away from the terminal. But I think most importantly, a longer runway gives a departing aircraft more room to abort takeoff, which can save lives. But there is an exception to the longer runway being for takeoffs, and this is more for efficient flow than anything, but at PHX, 26/8 which I’ve never seen a departure from (doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen) is longer than 25R/7L, the primary departure runway.
Speaking of runways, I was travelling on AS 447 last Thursday from LAX to SEA. I’m accustomed to taxiing to 24L for the northbound departure however we departed from 25R. Any possible explanation?


JNB also known as ORTIA uses the nearest runway to the terminal for take off as airlines don't like wasting fuel on long taxi routes to departure.
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77H
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 8:28 am

QXAS wrote:
In my experience, with the exception of HNL, which uses 8R for most departures and 8L for most arrivals, I’ve found that departures are typically on the closer runway while arrivals are on a runway farther away from the terminal. But I think most importantly, a longer runway gives a departing aircraft more room to abort takeoff, which can save lives. But there is an exception to the longer runway being for takeoffs, and this is more for efficient flow than anything, but at PHX, 26/8 which I’ve never seen a departure from (doesn’t mean it doesn’t happen) is longer than 25R/7L, the primary departure runway.
Speaking of runways, I was travelling on AS 447 last Thursday from LAX to SEA. I’m accustomed to taxiing to 24L for the northbound departure however we departed from 25R. Any possible explanation?


I've taken off on 26 at PHX before. Believe it was on an HP 320. But yes it's pretty rare.

On a side note, HNL was using 8L for WB departures last week. A person I follow on instagram posted a picture of a UA 772 launching from 8L.

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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 9:49 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.


True: runway 18 was built specifically for takeoffs and as far as I know there has never been a touchdown on this runway. Similar with 07L/25R which is excusively a landing runway.

Hijacking this thread: Which airport - apart from FRA - has dedicated takeoff or landing runways?
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:01 am

BartSimpson wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.


True: runway 18 was built specifically for takeoffs and as far as I know there has never been a touchdown on this runway. Similar with 07L/25R which is excusively a landing runway.

Hijacking this thread: Which airport - apart from FRA - has dedicated takeoff or landing runways?


LUA (Lukla, Nepal):
Rwy 06 - Landing only
Rwy 24 - Departure only
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:07 am

trijetsonly wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.


True: runway 18 was built specifically for takeoffs and as far as I know there has never been a touchdown on this runway. Similar with 07L/25R which is excusively a landing runway.

Hijacking this thread: Which airport - apart from FRA - has dedicated takeoff or landing runways?


LUA (Lukla, Nepal):
Rwy 06 - Landing only
Rwy 24 - Departure only


Strangely, they're both the same length! :wink2:
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:41 am

32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.

There really is. Some runways don't even have piano keys on one end, they're not certified for landing from certain ends or departing in certain directions, the FRA example above I have just seen is a good example.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 11:42 am

BartSimpson wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.


True: runway 18 was built specifically for takeoffs and as far as I know there has never been a touchdown on this runway. Similar with 07L/25R which is excusively a landing runway.

Hijacking this thread: Which airport - apart from FRA - has dedicated takeoff or landing runways?


AMS is a very good example.
18R landings only;
36L departures only;
18L departures only;
36R landings only;

The following runways are mostly used in dedicated directions:

24 departures only, seldomly used for landings;
09 departures only, seldomly used for landings;
06 landings only, seldomly used for departures;
27 landings only, seldomly used for departures ( when that is the case due for e.g. heavy winds from the west it's mostly used in mixed mode);
04 not used for commercial traffic, 22 for commercial landings only.

That makes runway 18C/36C the only runway at AMS fully used and ILS equipped in botsing directions.

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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:20 pm

arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.

That is ATC procedure but the runway can certainly be used. Many busy multi runway airports will start sending departures off both runways if they have a cap and a lineup.
 
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 1:37 pm

skipness1E wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.

There really is. Some runways don't even have piano keys on one end, they're not certified for landing from certain ends or departing in certain directions, the FRA example above I have just seen is a good example.


This isn't entirely accurate. Just because a runway doesn't have piano keys doesn't mean it's not certified for landing from that end. What it actually means is that there is no instrument approach to that end of the runway, and that all approaches will be visual only.
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:48 pm

32andBelow wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.

That is ATC procedure but the runway can certainly be used...


Not in the case of FRA. As far as I know there are no ATC procedures for landings on 18 or take-offs from 07L/25R. Just look at an aerial picture of 18 - you won't see any approach lights on either side. I would even go as far as stating that the governmental approvals for both runways specified their limited use. I haven't checked, though.

(And yes - technically the runways could be used for landings resp. take-offs. But then, any larger piece of concrete can.)
 
32andBelow
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 4:50 pm

And the pilot may always request the runway of their choice. But I think a lot of this is international differences as you wouldn’t find a runway without a threshold in the USA
 
arcticcruiser
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 5:30 pm

32andBelow wrote:
And the pilot may always request the runway of their choice. But I think a lot of this is international differences as you wouldn’t find a runway without a threshold in the USA

With a myopic US view you might think so. But the world is bigger and more complicated than the US...
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Tue Dec 19, 2017 7:24 pm

32andBelow wrote:
And the pilot may always request the runway of their choice. But I think a lot of this is international differences as you wouldn’t find a runway without a threshold in the USA


What do you mean "without a threshold"? I don't think you'll find a runway without a threshold anywhere, since the threshold is just the beginning of the runway.

If you mean piano keys, then you'll find hundreds of runways in the US without them. You'll also find plenty of runways that lack a threshold bar, or approach lights, etc.

BartSimpson wrote:
Hijacking this thread: Which airport - apart from FRA - has dedicated takeoff or landing runways?


Runway 14-32 at BOS. Takeoffs on 14 only, landings on 32 only. I've also never seen a landing on runway 9....not sure if it's specifically prohibited or not.
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leader1
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 2:18 am

BartSimpson wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.

That is ATC procedure but the runway can certainly be used...


Not in the case of FRA. As far as I know there are no ATC procedures for landings on 18 or take-offs from 07L/25R. Just look at an aerial picture of 18 - you won't see any approach lights on either side. I would even go as far as stating that the governmental approvals for both runways specified their limited use. I haven't checked, though.

(And yes - technically the runways could be used for landings resp. take-offs. But then, any larger piece of concrete can.)


PHL - 8/26. 8 is only for takeoffs and 26 just for landings.
ORD - 27R/9L and 28L/10R are only used for arrivals. I don't even think there are departure procedures for those runways.

And I forgot about DTW. 21R/3L is longer than 21L/3R, but it is primarily used for arrivals as it is the outer runway of that pair.
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 3:37 am

PHX has 3 runways, 26 11489" X 150'. 25 R 10300' X 150' and 25 L 78150' X 150. 25 R is the primary departure runway however 26 is used very often as a departure and arrival runway. I have seen aircraft land on all of the runways at different times. 25 L is normally the arrival runway but is often used for departures from Swift and FedEx for the smaller private aircraft and FedEx Caravans.
I fly on AA from PHX and have often taken off from 26. Have seen in the busy morning rush hour departures from 26 and 25 R at the same time.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 9:26 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L).


Not really true: https://www.heathrow.com/noise/heathrow ... lternation
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Wed Dec 20, 2017 7:04 pm

benjjk wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:
32andBelow wrote:
There’s no such thing as an arrival runway and a departure runway. Any runway can be used for takeoff and landing and any pilot can request a runway they need for operational reason.


Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L).


Not really true: https://www.heathrow.com/noise/heathrow ... lternation


I think you just proved my point. Where do these graphs show take-off's from 09L? I am well aware of LHR runway uses after 31 years of flying there...
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Thu Dec 21, 2017 11:15 am

arcticcruiser wrote:
benjjk wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L).


Not really true: https://www.heathrow.com/noise/heathrow ... lternation


I think you just proved my point. Where do these graphs show take-off's from 09L? I am well aware of LHR runway uses after 31 years of flying there...


Well the graphs would have you believe that there are only westerly operations there ;)

Given you said two runways I presumed you were talking about both 09L/27R being arrivals-only, hence my input. I agree that 09L departures aren't common, but the runway and airspace is set up for it if needed. And certainly the same length of runway is used for both departures and arrivals.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Fri Dec 22, 2017 10:57 pm

leader1 wrote:
The only major airports I can think of offhand that primarily use the shorter runways for departures are SFO using the 1s for takeoffs and the longer 28s for landings


The use of the 28s is common for long hauls whereas the 1s are mostly used for short and medium hauls. At the time of this writing, taking off on 28L: UA 738 to OGG, UA 788 to CDG, UA 773 to FRA, UA 772 to PVG...
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Sat Dec 23, 2017 8:51 pm

ro1960 wrote:
leader1 wrote:
The only major airports I can think of offhand that primarily use the shorter runways for departures are SFO using the 1s for takeoffs and the longer 28s for landings


The use of the 28s is common for long hauls whereas the 1s are mostly used for short and medium hauls. At the time of this writing, taking off on 28L: UA 738 to OGG, UA 788 to CDG, UA 773 to FRA, UA 772 to PVG...


That is correct, but the vast majority of flights do use the 1s for take-offs. I have also noticed an increasing number of long-hauls departing off 1R. I've seen several A330s, 787s and even a 744 take off 1R within the last year.
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:45 am

leader1 wrote:
ro1960 wrote:
leader1 wrote:
The only major airports I can think of offhand that primarily use the shorter runways for departures are SFO using the 1s for takeoffs and the longer 28s for landings


The use of the 28s is common for long hauls whereas the 1s are mostly used for short and medium hauls. At the time of this writing, taking off on 28L: UA 738 to OGG, UA 788 to CDG, UA 773 to FRA, UA 772 to PVG...


That is correct, but the vast majority of flights do use the 1s for take-offs. I have also noticed an increasing number of long-hauls departing off 1R. I've seen several A330s, 787s and even a 744 take off 1R within the last year.


Nothing better than official stats. From Air Carrier Runway Use Summary Report Data (24 Hours):

2017 01-11:
01L/R Departure Percentage Utilization: 71% (down from 77% in 2015, 73% in 2016)
10L/R Departure Percentage Utilization: 3%
19L/R Departure Percentage Utilization: 1%
28L/R Departure Percentage Utilization: 25% (up from 21% in 2015, 23% in 2016)

01L/R Arrival Percentage Utilization: 0%
10L/R Arrival Percentage Utilization: 0%
19L/R Arrival Percentage Utilization: 4%
28L/R Arrival Percentage Utilization: 96%
Last edited by ro1960 on Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:54 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 12:52 am

leader1 wrote:

And I forgot about DTW. 21R/3L is longer than 21L/3R, but it is primarily used for arrivals as it is the outer runway of that pair.



21R/3L is NOT primarily used for arrivals and is NOT longer than 21L. There's not even an instrument approach for either end.
 
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Re: Why is the departure runway usually shorter than the arrival runway in multi runway airports?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:18 pm

flyingfool wrote:
BartSimpson wrote:
arcticcruiser wrote:

You haven't been around much at multi runway airports around the world. Even LHR with only two runways has one that is pretty much arrivals only (09L), Frankfurt runway 18 take-offs only, 25L/07R arrivals only. Many many more examples.


True: runway 18 was built specifically for takeoffs and as far as I know there has never been a touchdown on this runway. Similar with 07L/25R which is excusively a landing runway.

Hijacking this thread: Which airport - apart from FRA - has dedicated takeoff or landing runways?


AMS is a very good example.
18R landings only;
36L departures only;
18L departures only;
36R landings only;

The following runways are mostly used in dedicated directions:

24 departures only, seldomly used for landings;
09 departures only, seldomly used for landings;
06 landings only, seldomly used for departures;
27 landings only, seldomly used for departures ( when that is the case due for e.g. heavy winds from the west it's mostly used in mixed mode);
04 not used for commercial traffic, 22 for commercial landings only.

That makes runway 18C/36C the only runway at AMS fully used and ILS equipped in botsing directions.

Mike


BOS runway 14 is for take offs only, runway 32 for landings only.

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