Crown
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Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:17 pm

Hello

I just wanted to know from a second opinion does having a home flight simulator help you get into the airlines.
I am about to send mine back because I have a lot going on at the moment but next year ill be applying to either CATS or L3Cts and wanted to know whether it would be beneficial for me to keep it
because surely I will remember it and they will be teaching me all of that anyway.
Last edited by atcsundevil on Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: Non descriptive title
 
pwm2txlhopper
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:46 pm

If you're referring to a home PC flight sim, it will help you little.
 
belfordrocks
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 2:50 pm

Will it help you learn? Possibly, depending on how you use it. Will it help you get an airline job? No.
A340-500 Queen of the Skies
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:20 pm

yes home pc
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:22 pm

I have been using for 8 years and has taught me but considering giving up
 
Andre3K
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 3:54 pm

Besides the fact that this might belong in aviation hobby.

It helps with system knowledge and to a small degree IFR flying.

But it cannot simulate the motion and g-force's which are critical to hand flying.

It wont help you get the job but if you have a 90% plus true to life simulator (like PMDG) it will certainly help with system knowledge and flows.
 
mmo
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 4:44 pm

It will have no impact at all. Unless you have a full Cat D sim in your house/back yard, you are wasting your time with a desk top based sim program. If you have enough hours/experience to be competitive for an airline, a sim won't make a hill of beans difference.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
32andBelow
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:31 pm

Do not put that you have a flight sim on your resume. Everyone at the office will pas that around the office for a laugh.
 
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Semaex
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 5:53 pm

Andre3K wrote:
It helps with system knowledge and to a small degree IFR flying.

But it cannot simulate the motion and g-force's which are critical to hand flying.


I had MSFS 2004 back then and it helped me a lot with radiocomms, although some phrases took a fair amount of getting used to (game uses US radio phraseology, I fly in Europe). Nonetheless, I aced the radio license without having to study a single hour for it. I just knew it all.
And when you get good add-ons like the before-mentioned PMDG or other realistic 737 cockpit layouts, you're at least more familiarized when you get into the sim for assessment. It's a confident-boost.

BUT, when it comes to actual flying, it's a whole different world.

Fun story: The first landing I did during my MCC on the B737 D Sim, I wasn't yet used to the motion of the whole thing, and while applying brakes for deceleration on the runway, I actually got a serious motion sickness, even though I had flown in sport aircraft for a good time until then. Weird stuff, never had expected that.
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
Redbellyguppy
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:00 pm

Total time and PIC is what you need. Almost a nything else is incidental. And for gods sake don't put simulator time on your resume.
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:47 pm

could you elaborate on "PIC" please
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:52 pm

someone mentioned lack of motion and g forces. I agree but I would say just the fact that in the real jet there's no "motion freeze" there's no controllers speaking unrecognizable English and you're saying "what did he say"? There's no one giving you a bad direction in the air or on the ground. The list goes with the reality of what really happens. Like another poster said don't put this on your resumé.
 
Andre3K
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 7:58 pm

mmo wrote:
It will have no impact at all. Unless you have a full Cat D sim in your house/back yard, you are wasting your time with a desk top based sim program. If you have enough hours/experience to be competitive for an airline, a sim won't make a hill of beans difference.


You don't have to sound so harsh with it.

The biggest thing lacking is actual physical switches, hardware and motion.

If this were not the case, my company wouldn't be selling P3D V4 Professional Plus for over $2000. And trust me it's being purchased by training companies and military clients. So to say it's of no use is just you being a dick to this guy for your own pride.

Now I do agree that if you are to the point where you are ready to interview, it's not going to do much for you.
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:01 pm

also is there anything i can do to practice the most until then.
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:03 pm

I have only got a year till i apply
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 8:35 pm

what is your aviation experience at this moment?
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 9:52 pm

I have had one flying lesson 8 years of sim and spent a week at l3cts on work experience
 
mmo
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:11 pm

Andre3K wrote:

You don't have to sound so harsh with it.

The biggest thing lacking is actual physical switches, hardware and motion.

If this were not the case, my company wouldn't be selling P3D V4 Professional Plus for over $2000. And trust me it's being purchased by training companies and military clients. So to say it's of no use is just you being a dick to this guy for your own pride.

Now I do agree that if you are to the point where you are ready to interview, it's not going to do much for you.


Harsh? You are kidding me! Look what you say it is lacking. It's not a sim, it's not a training device, it's an overpriced toy! It is missing high fidelity visual, sound and other things I am sure.

Are you a pilot? What is your experience? Believe me, I have nothing to prove and suggest you might want to edit your comments. The OP asked a question and I answered it, apparently not to your liking. Get over it!!

I am a retired military/airline pilot with over 23,000 hours. I have been a TRI/TRE on the 727, 320, 757, DC-10, 747/747-400, 777 and 787. I have been involved in pilot hiring at a couple of airlines and not work as a contract SFI. So, if you would like to compare credentials I am more than happy, but don't give me grief for answering a question.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
Woodreau
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:38 pm

To me it sounds like the OP resides in the EU or UK and the two things he mentions he is applying to are flight training organizations which take people with zero aviation time and turn them into 200-300hr MPL crew members. One of them feeds into EasyJet

So I think that is where the OP frame of reference is.

It’s not the US training pipeline where you have to obtain the aviation experience first before applying to an airline.

I think there is a reality television series that depicts the travails and training of new easyJet first officers out there. The name of the program escapes me at this point in time.

So I gather the OP is asking whether any of the “experience” he has gained from a desktop simulator would help in applying for a cadet program.

I would imagine not but I have no experience dealing with a cadet program selection process and the OP would be better served trying to find out what the selection process is.

As far as if a desktop simulator would help in flying a real aircraft it would depend on how you used it. If you’re mostly self taught then there is the potential of negative learning over those 8 years. There are many stories of flight instructors taking up flight simulator pilots and to get them to fly they have to undo all the bad habits picked up from the desktop flight simulator. They have to cover up the instruments to force the students to look outside because on a desktop your “instruments” were the primary means of aircraft control but in a training aircraft looking outside using visual references is the primary method until you get more advanced

So hopefully you didn’t pick up 8 years of bad habits that will be hard to break when flying in the real world. That whole law of primacy thing.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Sun Dec 24, 2017 10:52 pm

Yes I’m from the United Kingdom and there are a lot of schools who take you hear at 17 and teach you whether you have had experience or not and then they pass you on to airlines like tui , Thomas cook , and EasyJet.
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 12:26 am

Don't know why some of you were so "harsh" with MMO. He just told you the truth and you didn't like it. Personally if you have had 1 flying lesson I and you can get hired because you've flown a desk top flight sim all I can say is Good luck. Fly safe and keep the blue part up.
 
LH707330
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:06 am

I played flight simulator as a kid, and I'm currently working on my PPL. What I can say is that playing the sim taught me a lot about how the instruments work, the traffic pattern, airport signage, and basic procedures, but that's the extent to which the overlap is useful. Stick and rudder stuff had to be learned. Basically, ask yourself what's the same and what's different between the sim and the real world, and that will tell you your answers.
 
geologyrocks
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:25 am

Andre3K wrote:

You don't have to sound so harsh with it.

The biggest thing lacking is actual physical switches, hardware and motion.

If this were not the case, my company wouldn't be selling P3D V4 Professional Plus for over $2000. And trust me it's being purchased by training companies and military clients. So to say it's of no use is just you being a dick to this guy for your own pride.

Now I do agree that if you are to the point where you are ready to interview, it's not going to do much for you.


He’s not being harsh. The kid asked a question and he got a good answer. Does your company sell your simulators on the basis that it’s going to help get you a job with an airline? Preparing for flight school - sure. Learning the basics? Sure. But don’t try to sell a simulator as a way to get an airline job.

And as others stated - do not put that on your resume.
 
pwm2txlhopper
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 3:41 am

Andre3K wrote:
mmo wrote:
It will have no impact at all. Unless you have a full Cat D sim in your house/back yard, you are wasting your time with a desk top based sim program. If you have enough hours/experience to be competitive for an airline, a sim won't make a hill of beans difference.


You don't have to sound so harsh with it.

The biggest thing lacking is actual physical switches, hardware and motion.

If this were not the case, my company wouldn't be selling P3D V4 Professional Plus for over $2000. And trust me it's being purchased by training companies and military clients. So to say it's of no use is just you being a dick to this guy for your own pride.

Now I do agree that if you are to the point where you are ready to interview, it's not going to do much for you.


He's just being blunt. Keeping it real.

Sure, there's people who will pay for it. Especially with the right marketing to computer geeks dreaming of becoming a pilot. Doesn't mean it's going to teach you to fly. You might learn to read instruments, and get a introduction to IFR navigation. Aside from that, it's just a game. How do you learn the basics like slow flight without stalling out, or stall recovery? What to do in a stall induced spin? Those are things you can only learn hands on. Not at home in front of computer.

I use to be a huge MS Flight Simmer before I started taking flying lessons when I was 19. After about ten hours of flying C-152, I completely lost interest in MS flight Sim. In fact, it became really pretty boring. It taught me nothing about actual hands on flying. The only thing I gained was rudimentary introduction of IFR navigation using VORs, and reading basic instruments.

I would recommend getting a job to pay for flying lessons. Or, join a flying club or Civil Air Patrol with a plane and instructor availible at a reduced rate than you'd pay at an FBO. Fortunetly, when I learned to fly, you could rent a Cessna 1-52 and instructor for $100 per hour. Those days have passed. Not sure I could afford it these days.
 
benjjk
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 4:53 am

The only reason to mention simming experience is to demonstrate your passion for flying. When you're applying for these intensive ab-initio training programs that are all the rage in Europe, drive and determination is important so if you can demonstrate that you've been 'flying' from a young age, it's a good thing.

The worst possible thing you can do though, is to pretend that your PC sim time will give you an advantage because you're basically a pilot already. You may have thousands of hours 'flying' already under your belt but I can guarantee you aren't doing things exactly how they're done in the real world, and those habits you have are hard to break. One basic example, in my second or third flying lesson my instructor (correctly) guessed that I was a PC pilot because I spent too long looking inside the cockpit. He had to cover the attitude indicator because I kept looking at it when he was trying to teach me visual attitudes. I also struggled because on the PC my approaches were often steeper than the real-world standard.

If you already know how to track to an NDB or something you might find some of the theory classes easier than others, but it is irrelevant on your application because unless you are already licensed they'll need to teach you it anyway. In terms of your actual flying abilities it means squat (and could even be a disadvantage if your habits are that bad).

Using sims to supplement your real-world training is a different story altogether though, and can be incredibly useful.
 
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PatrickZ80
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:32 am

The only good thing about having experience in Flight Simulator is that it'll make learning to fly easier, but you still have to attend a flight school and get some proper training. But since you already got some basic knowledge (it really isn't more than that) you should be able to do that reasonably fast.

I'm using Flight Simulator too (P3D v4, PMDG 737NGX, etc) and it's a nice way to learn some things, but I'm far from a real pilot. I probably couldn't land a real 737 eventhough I've done so thousands of times in a sim. But that's nothing like the real thing.
 
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cpd
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:01 am

Some of the much better sims might be useful for learning a bit about systems and that sort of stuff, but I doubt for much else.

Sims cannot teach you about the way air-traffic control behaves in some countries (unconventional ideas, language difficulties, different levels of flexibility). And aside from that, it's probably not very useful for visual flying.

I don't think I'd say anything about home flight simulator use for the reasons some people have said already - and even some replies above have proven that point.
 
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Semaex
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:35 am

Crown wrote:
Yes I’m from the United Kingdom and there are a lot of schools who take you hear at 17 and teach you whether you have had experience or not and then they pass you on to airlines like tui , Thomas cook , and EasyJet.

Hi there and merry christmas morning. Don't get distracted by the negative posts out there.

I've been in pretty much the same situation as you. I was very excited about aviation, but all I could afford was a Flight Sim, and not a single hour of actual hand flying. Even a C172 costs more than 100€/h here in Europe, and I guess many US youngsters can't relate.
And to all you US boys out there: Wake up, this is EASA-country we're talking about! We start flying A320s with 300h TT, not 3000h. Don't let the young man believe he needs to aquire hundreds of hours and spend ten thousands of Pounds before he can apply somewhere!


So Crown, as I understand, you have to pass some kind of test to get into a flight school?
If all you can afford is a PC based flight sim, then go for it! There is no cheaper and more exciting method to learn about basic aviation phraseology, instruments and procedures as that. For a application test, the knowledge you will gain there should be sufficient.
As another member has mentioned, if you stick to it too long, you might get used to the "wrong" things you learn in the flight sim, and you have to be re-taught. But since you're applying for a flight school cadet program, they would never expect you to know everything and, in fact, assume you know some false things.

I used to hit my PC flight sim every day after school and I gradually started adding packages, making everything (look and sound) more realistic, and upping the difficulty. At some point, my multitasking levels were at a point where I was confident enough to go to flight school screenings, in which I then succeeded. On ATPL subjects like Aircraft Systems, Instruments, Navigation, Flight Rules and maybe some more I was actually at a very solid level and understood everything much faster than my peers. Of course, when it gets into very technical matters, your flight sim will be no use, but your initial level will be good.
But as mentioned: When you start flying for the first time, and theory time is over, it is nothing like your PC sim. That's what the flight school is good for, that's their job, and they don't expect you to ace your first 50 landings.

Regards,
// You know you're an aviation enthusiast if you look at your neighbour's cars and think about fleet commonality.
 
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787Driver
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 1:03 pm

Playing FS does help. Take this from an airline pilot now flying the 787 who started flying FS when I was a kid :) FS is especially good for practicing full ILS approaches & race tracks and base turns and manual holding patterns and what not. Use real world IFR charts if you’re able to get hold of some and watch some YouTube videos that will help you interpret them and then try to slowly see if you can figure out how to fly the full procedure ils approaches. It will be a huge feeling of satisfaction and relief when you realize you just did the whole approach manually and according to the chart. :-)
 
ksbd
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 2:08 pm

Harsh? You are kidding me! Look what you say it is lacking. It's not a sim, it's not a training device, it's an overpriced toy! It is missing high fidelity visual, sound and other things I am sure.

Are you a pilot? What is your experience? Believe me, I have nothing to prove and suggest you might want to edit your comments. The OP asked a question and I answered it, apparently not to your liking. Get over it!!

I am a retired military/airline pilot with over 23,000 hours. I have been a TRI/TRE on the 727, 320, 757, DC-10, 747/747-400, 777 and 787. I have been involved in pilot hiring at a couple of airlines and not work as a contract SFI. So, if you would like to compare credentials I am more than happy, but don't give me grief for answering a question.


How is flight simulator an overpriced toy?

For under $50 you can buy Microsoft Flight Sim 10 and utilize it to understand basic principals of flight, practice ILS approaches, download real world weather, join VATSIM and learn proper ATC lingo, etc. I have a good friend that played flight sim for years and downloaded the Cessna 441 addon, well one day he was invited for a lesson at his local airport in the 441 and was able to use his flight sim experience. The instructor was impressed and told him he handled it like he flew it for years. Now maybe the instructor wanted to sign him up for more lessons, but I doubt it.

Flight sim is not an overpriced toy, I wouldn’t put it on your resume or bring it up in interviews, but absolutely spend your time using it instead of playing PS4 or Pokémon Go.

Don’t listen to the other guy, he doesn’t know what he’s talking about.
 
ksbd
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 10:09 pm

mmo wrote:

Then perhaps you would like to enlighten me on just how it can help someone with an airline interview. I have interviewed pilots, given simulator evals and been part of the hiring committee and can say it would make no difference at all. I have interviewed prospective cadets, entry level F/Os and direct entry Captains and can say I can't think of a single thing it would have to offer.

You state: "utilize it to understand basic principals of flight, practice ILS approaches, download real world weather, join VATSIM and learn proper ATC lingo, etc. I have a good friend that played flight sim for years and downloaded the Cessna 441 addon, well one day he was invited for a lesson at his local airport in the 441 and was able to use his flight sim experience. The instructor was impressed and told him he handled it like he flew it for years.". I would argue the instructor was either drumming up business or OTLNFC.

The nice thing about your tool is it does a good job of reinforcing bad habits and it's very tough to break those. You mention the basic principles of flight, for me a simple aero book did a good job of explaining that.

Anyhow, I will sit back and wait to be educated on how I have no idea what I am talking about or how unprofessional I have been. Oh, one more thing, if it is such a great tool, why the reluctant to put it down on your resume.


First of all, it’s very disappointing that all of your so called “experience” has led you to the opinion that desktop simulators are “toys.” I know plenty of pilots that have hardcore flight sim setups in their homes and program many real world scenarios along with routine procedures and they are some of the most proficient pilots I know. The airline industry, NASA, and the military all use fixed based trainers, you don’t need an expensive full motion machine to learn basic aeronautics. The Mercury 7 all trained in a sim mock up that didn’t move and it still provided more than enough procedure training.

For example, if a 12 year old plays flight sim for 10 years before taking pilot lessons and at 22 starts flying, that student will have a ton of knowledge of not just Cessnas but if he/she got a descent 737 addon, could probably program the FMC and use the CDU like an expert. Now I’ll concede the point that desktop flight sims won’t make somebody a pilot, but to dismiss them as toys with zero educational value is nonsense. Also, if it’s just a toy, why is there a popular book written by two instructors called “Flight Simualtor X for Real World Pilots”? Also I’m not sure how a person could learn bad habits learning how to program an FMC...

Interview or not, desktop flight simulators encourage persuing an aeronautical path for many people. I wouldn’t bring it up in an interview simply because it’s only relevant to the individual person’s character and ambitions. Just like I wouldn’t bring up my dad being a pilot or how I do aviation photography on the weekends, not relevant enough for an interview with limited time.
 
mmo
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Mon Dec 25, 2017 11:16 pm

You need to reread the post and the question. You are not talking about a "desk top setup", you are talking fixed base simulators.....very different and no where the same.

You wonder "how a person could learn bad habits learning hot to program an FMC"....You are joking aren't you? Again, you are not talking about a desk top program.

Again, you have not answered my question(s), but tried to tell me why I am wrong for calling a program like MS FS or any pure desktop app a toy. I never said anything about a FBS or CPT those are very different and not even close to what you are referring to.

So, still waiting for an explanation of how FS can help for an interview.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
xcao
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:22 am

I'm no expert in this area, just an Engineer at a budget airline, but I asked the Head Pilots in our office who do recruitment for our cadet program and they said that anything which indicates a serious aviation interest and commitment is a massive plus, which would certainly include your simulator time.

I can't speak for any others, but our cadet program isn't looking for people with significant previous real aviation experience (in fact, there's a hard limit to how many flying hours you can have if you want to apply). They just want to see if you are really interested in the role and the airline, and having thousands of hours on your own flight sim setup, flying the aircraft that they're hoping to train you on, is a great way to indicate that.

So just because the technical skills *might* not help you, doesn't mean that it's not useful at all. I would certainly recommend you put it on your resume when applying for a cadet program, just as a hobby rather than experience/expertise.
Last edited by xcao on Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:28 am, edited 1 time in total.
 
ksbd
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 1:26 am

mmo wrote:
You need to reread the post and the question. You are not talking about a "desk top setup", you are talking fixed base simulators.....very different and no where the same.

You wonder "how a person could learn bad habits learning hot to program an FMC"....You are joking aren't you? Again, you are not talking about a desk top program.

Again, you have not answered my question(s), but tried to tell me why I am wrong for calling a program like MS FS or any pure desktop app a toy. I never said anything about a FBS or CPT those are very different and not even close to what you are referring to.

So, still waiting for an explanation of how FS can help for an interview.


You can absolutely learn how to program an FMC with a desktop program. I have a 737 add on that has a fully functional FMC with updated SIDS and STARS, RNAV, etc....and I’m running it on a program that’s 14 years old (FS2004).

As to answer your question, which I’ve already done in the previous post, FS can help any applicant in a job interview. Why does an applicant need to bring it up, the applicants experience speaks for itself. And that experience is supplemented with time spent on a desktop FS program.

My only concern over bringing it up in the interview would be the lack of knowledge and antiquated beliefs about desktop FS (as you appear to have) of the interviewers. An interviewer doesn’t know if the applicant was playing FS as a study tool or just flying the milliniem falcon around Boston.

So to the OP, use the flight simulator all you can, spend the extra cash and get some decent add ons with actual aircraft you may fly in the future, and if your lucky enough in the future not to have an interviewer like “mmo,” bring up the fact that you used flight simulators prior to actual flight lessons. Chances are your interviewer probably uses flight sim too!
 
CosmicCruiser
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:09 am

Chances are your interviewer probably uses flight sim too!

oh jeez

Of the interviews I've ever had no one ever asked anything FMS explicit, never. The questions never had anything to do with flying the jet that the co. flies. They wanted to know WHAT I'VE BEEN DOING. What's your experience. I did have to fly the 727 sim as part of the interview and I had never been in the cockpit of one. You were scored on flying skills and nothing to do with a 727. Maybe you'll find that airline where all that is relevant but I've never seen it. Good luck.
 
Calder
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Tue Dec 26, 2017 3:03 pm

OP, if you've got a flight sim program already, use it for intro IFR stuff if you can.

Otherwise, save your money and spend it on a few flying lessons rather than a home sim setup.

As others have stated, you should be more worried about developing bad habits than not having any habits at all.

Also, as others have said, leave the home sim "time" off your resume.
C. T.
 
VSMUT
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:20 am

Playing Flight Simulator at home can only be positive, even on your CV. Just put it down as a personal interest, hobby or other experience. Don't put it down as actual flying experience. It helps build an overall impression which does matter. There is a lot of competition for the few jobs out there, so even the small stuff will help you gain an advantage. You have to distinguish yourself from the 10000 other newly graduated pilots who have the exact same amount of flying hours as you do.

Apart from that, I've found that PC based flight simulators are useful during training. Especially getting into instrument flying/navigation is a bit tricky, and failing and redoing a flying lesson can be really expensive. Practicing procedures and methods at home before the lesson helps alleviate this. The instructors will also note your better preparation, which ultimately could result in the school recommending you to an airline or a good scores etc. It was also a handy assistance for some of the ATPL subjects, such as radio navigation. These subject take place entirely on the ground using textbooks, so visualizing the stuff on your computer is useful. It isn't the ultimate training tool, but it beats having to pay 200 eur on a failed lesson, or 800 eur for another ATPL exam.

And I can only agree with all that Semaex wrote above.

Crown wrote:
I am about to send mine back because I have a lot going on at the moment but next year ill be applying to either CATS or L3Cts and wanted to know whether it would be beneficial for me to keep it because surely I will remember it and they will be teaching me all of that anyway.


Keep it. It is 2017, all students at flying schools use PC based flight simulators these days as a tool to assist in the training. Many schools directly encourage students to use these programs. If you return it now, you will just have to buy it again when you start at the flying school.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:57 am

I'd say it's also a question of where you are in your career.

18year old applying with no experience at all for an integrated course: yeah, mentioning it as one of your interests, as VSMUT, stated, absolutely ok and certainly more of a plus than a minus.

Ready entry pilot applying to an airline? The desktop flight SIM has no place here. Real world experience and of course real SIM time counts. And you would be considered to be too mature to consider MS FS or any comparable low level SIM as relevant flying experience.
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BravoOne
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:25 pm

The DT simulator concept has been around for years with very mixed results and certainly does not nor will it ever replace a full flight level D simulator, It main abjective in the train of airline pilots is to hone standard operating procedures (Flows and verbals) for a transitioning pilot as dictated by the specific operator. It's a fraction of the cost needed to purchase and maintain a FFS, and thus is used extensively in airline transition from aircraft to aircraft. I'm sure the 787 FTD (Flight Tarining Device) costs upwards of 10M USD and had it's own tailored visual system. It can be used in lieu of the FFS for training of ETOPS, Lo Viz CATll&lll Ops. That not with standing, it is a poor substitute for a FFS. Just a quick note the FFS sim without motion can be used as a FTD in lieu of the FTD,

If I saw some one had added PC sim time his or her logbook that would be the end of the interview.
 
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flyingturtle
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 5:57 pm

If rightly done, I would certainly mention it as a hobby.

Flight sim experience is really cool if you are involved in improving the flight sim (e.g. creating 3D models of the planes, or programming avionics of those simulated planes, or improving the aerodynamical behaviour). This shows that you're dedicated towards aviation. It says that you want to make flight-simming a greater experience.

On many people, this would make a good impression.

But it's not something that counts towards a pilot job.


David,

who is learning IFR on Flightgear's Cessna 337, and is still getting killed frequently
Keeping calm is terrorism against those who want to live in fear.
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:17 pm

BravoOne wrote:
If I saw some one had added PC sim time his or her logbook that would be the end of the interview.


Absolutely agree. PC SIM time is ridiculous in the log book and would end that interview there right away with me as well.
But why does it have to be so black and white.

For the 18 year old applying for an integrated course it wouldn't be so bad putting it on the CV in the hobbies column. It shows interest and dedication. That's all you need prior to the assessment centre...
Enslave yourself to the divine disguised as salvation
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m0ssy
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Wed Dec 27, 2017 11:49 pm

I don't see how it couldn't help orient one to the very basics. I realize as an avid flight simmer that I would never claim to be a pilot, but after 17 years of flight simming, thousands of hours of reviewing approach plates, installing realistic addons, if I were to take the plunge and go to flight school I'd at least have some knowledge of those items. Not to mention knowledge of geophraphy in general and even airport geography as even FS9 (2004) can be modded with updates for current airfields.

Get a police scanner and go to your local airport and listen to the way they communicate for real world differences in the way the AI ATC communicates. If not that, get the liveatc app and listen to some of the busier locations to get a handle on the inhumane way large airports communicate (lightspeed gibberish....).

Get a fancy addon aircraft with an FMS, learn sids/stars if you haven't already. I personally love the QualityWings products, but opinions will vary.

Practice the teaching sessions they include with the product. While they will drive you crazy, get familiar with mastering ILS approaches, practice some go around procedures, as even real world pilots don't look forward to those scenarios (like the teardrop entry).

I'd say use Flight Sim to your own advantages, but be weary of claiming that as "experience" around pilots, as many don't take kindly to simmers acting like they know anything. Having been up in a small craft, the "in the moment" feel is something no simulator will reproduce. Although at home, when the phone is ringing, the tv is on, kids are asking for advice, and everyone needs everything solved when on EVERY TIME I'm on final, I ponder if the real world might be a tad easier! :D

Don't dream about this for too long. I'm 41 and couldn't fathom anyone wishing to hire me as a professional pilot, even if I could afford the lessons any time soon. Cheers!
 
geologyrocks
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:02 am

I don't think there are very many people that would argue that flight simulators aren't helpful. From the 8 year old just flying around in a flight simulator to an already experienced pilot using a simulator to practice an unusual situation...yeah, they're used and have all sorts of practical applications.

What the OP specifically asked though was getting a job at an airline. The answer is unequivocally no and anyone of you who thinks otherwise is a fool. Some of you mentioned VATSIM. When I was kid, I used VATSIM. Today I'm a center controller. Guess how many times I mentioned during the interview or during any phase of training my VATSIM time? I think the answer is obvious and I would pity any trainee that walked into the center and started talking about his VATSIM time. It won't end well.
 
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cpd
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 3:37 am

Bravo One wrote:
I will have to disagree with your assessment. Makes you look like gameboy and nothing more, but if it works for you, go for it. Looks like the Capt on the MAS 777 was gameboy so if you want to be in that same gene pool let us know how it works out.


Simulating a real plane properly is when it becomes full scale software development with all the challenges and difficulties that go along with that. Developers, SVNs, sprints/scrums, scrum masters, QA test team, etc. Doesn't sound so much like a game anymore.

It doesn't matter anyway if you mention it in interviews or not. Don't companies have HR departments to trawl through social media and online forums (or get recruitment firms to do so)? I mean, you are on an aviation hobby website now and you've been a member of the site for 4 years according to the stats. What kind of impression does that give, and how does your company think of the forum posts that you make?

If you are really into programming and the like, better to take those skills and go into a field where you can really make that pay off. I work with these kinds of people all the time and the amount of money they make is quite insane, you'd be totally shocked. Even if you really loved aviation, it'd be totally irrational to throw that all away just to fly at rock-bottom levels of pay (at least to start with).
 
Nicoeddf
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 10:47 am

geologyrocks wrote:
What the OP specifically asked though was getting a job at an airline. The answer is unequivocally no and anyone of you who thinks otherwise is a fool.


anyone who disagrees is a fool, right? :roll:

Landing a spot in an integrated course in of Europes flight schools as an 18 year old, and by extension landing an airline job two years later, would not be hurt, even helped in mentioning flight SIM interest. Not as SIM time, but as a hobby and proof of interest.

I say that again, it is not all black and white and depends totally on what period in life and at what point in your career you are.

As a ready entry, total no go.
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geologyrocks
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 2:24 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
geologyrocks wrote:
What the OP specifically asked though was getting a job at an airline. The answer is unequivocally no and anyone of you who thinks otherwise is a fool.


anyone who disagrees is a fool, right? :roll:

Landing a spot in an integrated course in of Europes flight schools as an 18 year old, and by extension landing an airline job two years later, would not be hurt, even helped in mentioning flight SIM interest. Not as SIM time, but as a hobby and proof of interest.

I say that again, it is not all black and white and depends totally on what period in life and at what point in your career you are.

As a ready entry, total no go.


Yes. Anyone who disagrees with that is a fool. You’re going back to talking about getting into a flight school. That’s not what the OP asked. He asked specifically about an airline. But carry on. It’s your career...do whatever you feel it can handle.
 
meecrob
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:44 pm

benjjk wrote:
One basic example, in my second or third flying lesson my instructor (correctly) guessed that I was a PC pilot because I spent too long looking inside the cockpit. He had to cover the attitude indicator because I kept looking at it when he was trying to teach me visual attitudes. I also struggled because on the PC my approaches were often steeper than the real-world standard.


I can attest to this as well. Like lots in this thread, I played MS flightsim before doing my PPL. My instructor picked up on this immediately and was always on me for looking at the instruments. That habit was breakable, but the issue it raised was that I was deadly focused on my attitude and vertical speed etc, but never checked the oil pressure gauge - probably because you have to purposely fail your engine in flightsim. Again, it was a breakable habit, but I spent at least 3-4 hours (at approx. $150/hr) to correct it.

With regards to struggling with high approaches, I fell into the same trap. I'm guessing it is due to 2D vs 3D visual differences, but again, I had to spend money to un-learn my flightsim habits. My instructor had a good sense of humour about it - some of my favourite quips were "We're gonna have to get you drug tested after this approach - good god you are high!!" Another one was when I was too high and in trying to correct the approach ended up on the backside of the power curve dragging it in by the prop. He saw me drop the RPM by about 50 and said "Put that power back on or when we crash, I'm climbing out of the wreckage and kicking your ass!"

On the plus side, I had only one sim training session (when I trained the sims were like playing an Atari with a yoke - even though there were playstations and xboxes out. It was a thoroughly un-enjoyable experience reserved for days when weather made it impossible for training.) After my lesson, my instructor showed me the playback of my flightpath and remarked "Well, good job, but you're better than me at flying fake planes...so do you want to hang out in your room staring at a screen or fly planes?" As I mentioned that was my first and only sim lesson during my PPL and his advice to get my head out of the plane and into the sky was some of the best I received.

I just remembered ATC busting my balls once for my high approaches too. I was practicing short field landings and was totally fixated on the difference in procedures from a regular landing. Of course you can guess I let my approach get high....really really high...ATC called me and asked if I had a radio failure because I was clearly going around and they didn't hear my go around call. It snapped me out of my focus and I saw I was about 250 feet AGL over the threshold. I tried to act cool and said "There's a baby on the runway, going around." The laughter I received from the controller made it plain I was fooling nobody.

Overall, play flightsim because you like flying, but keep in the back of your head that nobody plays Gran Turismo or whatever car game the kids play these days and expect them to hand you a drivers license. Nobody plays rock band or guitar hero and picks up a guitar and plays it well. I bet you have a joystick for flightsim. Unless you are looking at pointy nosed fighters, you won't ever fly anything that has a joystick. That is not an issue as long as you know that its all a game going in. There is absolutely nothing wrong with flightsim as long as you know its real name should be "This is Kinda Like Flying and is Fun to Pass the Time When I am not Actually Flying...PS for the Love of God Don't Fly the Stock Planes"
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:53 pm

Nicoeddf wrote:
geologyrocks wrote:
What the OP specifically asked though was getting a job at an airline. The answer is unequivocally no and anyone of you who thinks otherwise is a fool.


anyone who disagrees is a fool, right? :roll:

Landing a spot in an integrated course in of Europes flight schools as an 18 year old, and by extension landing an airline job two years later, would not be hurt, even helped in mentioning flight SIM interest. Not as SIM time, but as a hobby and proof of interest.

I say that again, it is not all black and white and depends totally on what period in life and at what point in your career you are.

As a ready entry, total no go.



Im still quite young , only 16 so I have a few years yet , but Im looking at joining one of the schools in the UK like L3Cts or CATS aviation
 
Crown
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 7:56 pm

I was just wondering what I could do to prepare in the time from now.
 
mmo
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Re: Will having a flight simulator help me get an airline job?

Thu Dec 28, 2017 8:41 pm

I seem to remember saying a very similar statement about having a desk top flight sim. There were certainly several "experts' on here who chastised me for being too rough or too blunt. Funny how the circle has been completed now and the consensus is it's not worth while.

A recommendation for Crown...read as much as you can. Believe me, the schools will get you through, if you have the desire and aptitude. The one thing I would do is get a Class I medical. Make sure you don't have any disqualifying conditions. Use the simulator money for payment towards the medical.
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