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JonathanNg
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8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 7:56 am

I was wondering, how are the economics of the 787-8 vs the A330-800? Also, how about the 787-9 vs the A330-900, considering that both comparisons have the 787s and A330neos in 8 abreast economy? Generally, airlines have 7 abreast in premium economy and 6 abreast in business class for A330s and 787s, though some airlines have business class in 4 abreast with direct aisle access.

Generally, airlines like squeezing economy passengers, but here I'm considering airlines that may use the aircraft for ultra long haul.
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afterburner
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:11 am

In my opinion 787 is too wide for 8 abreast but slightly too narrow for 9 abreast. 777 is too wide for 9 abreast but slightly too narrow for 10 abreast. 767, A330, and A350 widths are perfect for 7, 8, and 9 abreast respectively.
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:14 am

afterburner wrote:
In my opinion 787 is too wide for 8 abreast but slightly too narrow for 9 abreast. 777 is too wide for 9 abreast but slightly too narrow for 10 abreast. 767, A330, and A350 widths are perfect for 7, 8, and 9 abreast respectively.


Thankfully Airbus doesn't make aircraft which gives airline such a choice else they would be stuffy and cramped as well, like their Boeing counterparts. Bar the odd A310/A330 operator who are 3-3-3, airlines have largely stuck to 8-abreast on the A300/A310/A330 and 9-abreast on the A350, and passengers are better for it day in and day out.
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MrHMSH
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:38 am

The 787 will likely win any contest when operating (i.e. fuel) costs are considered, but the A330neo and ceo compete on capital costs and commonality, as long as you don't need the capability, it's likely to be close overall.
 
Strato2
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 8:44 am

Spiderguy252 wrote:

Thankfully Airbus doesn't make aircraft which gives airline such a choice else they would be stuffy and cramped as well, like their Boeing counterparts


Indeed. I just took my first flight on a 787 and while the aircraft is otherwise very impressive (relatively quiet, big windows) everything good is destroyed by the cramped seating and I was glad the flight I took was MAD-TFN which was only a bit over two hours long.
 
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 9:51 am

Umm, there are way less airlines with 6-abreast than 4-abreast in Business Class. And the only 8-abreast 787 operator is JAL, which as we know runs their planes like charity (not that I'm complaining).
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JonathanNg
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:15 am

OA940 wrote:
Umm, there are way less airlines with 6-abreast than 4-abreast in Business Class. And the only 8-abreast 787 operator is JAL, which as we know runs their planes like charity (not that I'm complaining).


Well quite a number of airlines have 6 abreast business class on the 787. Eg. United, Ethiopian, Azerbaijan, Aeromexico (787-8), Air China, Air Europa, Air India.
In trust I thrust, in thrust she trusts.

Looking to start FSC in SIN with used A332s, 3/4 class, 3/4/6/8 ab F/J/W/Y. Flying to EMEA, Americas, parts of Asia and Pacific.

Flown on: A320 A333 A359 B772 B773 B77W

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WIederling
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:16 am

MrHMSH wrote:
The 787 will likely win any contest when operating (i.e. fuel) costs are considered, but the A330neo and ceo compete on capital costs and commonality, as long as you don't need the capability, it's likely to be close overall.


787@9 vs A330@8 competes on slightly more fuel compensated by much lower capital cost.

787@8 (11%less pax") vs A330@8 should see the A330 on fuel ahead alone ( low capex is super nice dressing.
Murphy is an optimist
 
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scbriml
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:16 am

There seems little point in trying to analyse 787 operating economics at 8 abreast in economy when, to the best of my knowledge, only one airline operates them in that configuration.
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OA940
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Tue Dec 26, 2017 10:47 am

JonathanNg wrote:
OA940 wrote:
Umm, there are way less airlines with 6-abreast than 4-abreast in Business Class. And the only 8-abreast 787 operator is JAL, which as we know runs their planes like charity (not that I'm complaining).


Well quite a number of airlines have 6 abreast business class on the 787. Eg. United, Ethiopian, Azerbaijan, Aeromexico (787-8), Air China, Air Europa, Air India.


I know, but the number of airlines with direct aisle access (4-abreast except JAL, KAL and Oman Air which have 6-abreast with direct aisle access) outnumber them quite significantly.
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george77300
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Wed Jan 03, 2018 9:14 pm

Spiderguy252 wrote:
afterburner wrote:
In my opinion 787 is too wide for 8 abreast but slightly too narrow for 9 abreast. 777 is too wide for 9 abreast but slightly too narrow for 10 abreast. 767, A330, and A350 widths are perfect for 7, 8, and 9 abreast respectively.


Thankfully Airbus doesn't make aircraft which gives airline such a choice else they would be stuffy and cramped as well, like their Boeing counterparts. Bar the odd A310/A330 operator who are 3-3-3, airlines have largely stuck to 8-abreast on the A300/A310/A330 and 9-abreast on the A350, and passengers are better for it day in and day out.


But the problem is when airlines go 10 abreast in A350 and 9 in A330 which have happened and these are the two smallest width economy seats currently flying.

Edit: I think the 8 abreast 767 are on par with these too.
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:51 am

Royal Jordanian operates their 788’s with 6 abreast in business class as well.
 
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afterburner
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Thu Jan 04, 2018 2:20 pm

george77300 wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:
afterburner wrote:
In my opinion 787 is too wide for 8 abreast but slightly too narrow for 9 abreast. 777 is too wide for 9 abreast but slightly too narrow for 10 abreast. 767, A330, and A350 widths are perfect for 7, 8, and 9 abreast respectively.


Thankfully Airbus doesn't make aircraft which gives airline such a choice else they would be stuffy and cramped as well, like their Boeing counterparts. Bar the odd A310/A330 operator who are 3-3-3, airlines have largely stuck to 8-abreast on the A300/A310/A330 and 9-abreast on the A350, and passengers are better for it day in and day out.


But the problem is when airlines go 10 abreast in A350 and 9 in A330 which have happened and these are the two smallest width economy seats currently flying.

Edit: I think the 8 abreast 767 are on par with these too.

Only low cost and charter carriers have 8 abreast in 767 and 9 abreast in A330. Even Emirates, the pioneer of 10 abreast 777, only had 8 abreast on its A330s.
 
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Thu Jan 04, 2018 4:30 pm

afterburner wrote:
george77300 wrote:
Spiderguy252 wrote:

Thankfully Airbus doesn't make aircraft which gives airline such a choice else they would be stuffy and cramped as well, like their Boeing counterparts. Bar the odd A310/A330 operator who are 3-3-3, airlines have largely stuck to 8-abreast on the A300/A310/A330 and 9-abreast on the A350, and passengers are better for it day in and day out.


But the problem is when airlines go 10 abreast in A350 and 9 in A330 which have happened and these are the two smallest width economy seats currently flying.

Edit: I think the 8 abreast 767 are on par with these too.

Only low cost and charter carriers have 8 abreast in 767 and 9 abreast in A330. Even Emirates, the pioneer of 10 abreast 777, only had 8 abreast on its A330s.


But 10 abreast B777 and 9 abreast B787 are far better seat wise than the dreaded 8 abreast B767, 9 abreast A330/A340 or the 10 abreast A350. These three configurations are the three worst in seat width but a relative margin.
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reidar76
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Thu Jan 04, 2018 9:42 pm

Here is an overview of seat width at different number of seats abreast, at common aisle widths. Assuming two inch wide armrests.

Seat width of the 787 at 9 abreast is half way between seat width on the A330 at 8 and 9 abreast. 787 at 8 abreast is comparable to the comfort level of the A380 at 10 abreast.

Image
 
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Spiderguy252
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:06 am

george77300 wrote:
afterburner wrote:
george77300 wrote:

But the problem is when airlines go 10 abreast in A350 and 9 in A330 which have happened and these are the two smallest width economy seats currently flying.

Edit: I think the 8 abreast 767 are on par with these too.

Only low cost and charter carriers have 8 abreast in 767 and 9 abreast in A330. Even Emirates, the pioneer of 10 abreast 777, only had 8 abreast on its A330s.


But 10 abreast B777 and 9 abreast B787 are far better seat wise than the dreaded 8 abreast B767, 9 abreast A330/A340 or the 10 abreast A350. These three configurations are the three worst in seat width but a relative margin.


Sure, but 9/10 operators do 3-4-3 on the 777. 0.25/10 A330 operators do 3-3-3 on the A330. Therein lies the difference.
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RJMAZ
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:03 am

reidar76 wrote:
Here is an overview of seat width at different number of seats abreast, at common aisle widths. Assuming two inch wide armrests.

Seat width of the 787 at 9 abreast is half way between seat width on the A330 at 8 and 9 abreast. 787 at 8 abreast is comparable to the comfort level of the A380 at 10 abreast.

Image

I actually double checked a few of these and each one has been wrong.

You might want to check what widths you are using. You might be using the width at floor level for one and shoulder width for another.

Some aircraft have the maximum width at floor level some at shoulder height. So the aircraft with maximum width at floor level will be many inchs narrower at shoulder level.

Image

Yet wikipedia says the 787 is only 8" wider.
At hip level the 787 is 10" wider
At shoulder level the 787 is 12" wider
At head level the 787 is 15" wider.

The 777 for instance the large diameter means the sidewall doesnt curve in as much. So at head height its much wider than wikipedia reports.

Nearly all Boeing's have the max cabin width a foot or more above floor level on the 737, 767, 777 and 787. The A320 and A330 have the max width close to the floor so at shoulder width their big comfort advantage turns into a very very small one.
 
flipdewaf
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Fri Jan 05, 2018 3:54 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
Yet wikipedia says the 787 is only 8" wider.
At hip level the 787 is 10" wider
At shoulder level the 787 is 12" wider

What is the dimension that dictates the width of the seat?

RJMAZ wrote:
At head level the 787 is 15" wider.

Image

This guy is bothered by width at head height, Sorry couldn't resist!

Fred
Image
 
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reidar76
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Fri Jan 05, 2018 5:58 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
reidar76 wrote:
Here is an overview of seat width at different number of seats abreast, at common aisle widths. Assuming two inch wide armrests.

Seat width of the 787 at 9 abreast is half way between seat width on the A330 at 8 and 9 abreast. 787 at 8 abreast is comparable to the comfort level of the A380 at 10 abreast.

Image

I actually double checked a few of these and each one has been wrong.

You might want to check what widths you are using. You might be using the width at floor level for one and shoulder width for another.

Some aircraft have the maximum width at floor level some at shoulder height. So the aircraft with maximum width at floor level will be many inchs narrower at shoulder level.

Image

Yet wikipedia says the 787 is only 8" wider.
At hip level the 787 is 10" wider
At shoulder level the 787 is 12" wider
At head level the 787 is 15" wider.

The 777 for instance the large diameter means the sidewall doesnt curve in as much. So at head height its much wider than wikipedia reports.

Nearly all Boeing's have the max cabin width a foot or more above floor level on the 737, 767, 777 and 787. The A320 and A330 have the max width close to the floor so at shoulder width their big comfort advantage turns into a very very small one.


I have used maximum cabin width from the aircraft characteristics documentation that is available on Boeings and Airbus' website. You are absolutely right that it is possible to discuss whether cabin width at seat or arm rest level would be a better measurement. I would argue that the difference in curvature for these large widebodies are not that large, that it makes the numbers incorrect.

Yes, the A330 has maximum cabin width closer to the floor, while the 777 has it closer to shoulder height. The 787 is somewhere in between. If you are tall/short, muscular/slim, or like to sit with your legs spread or sleep with your head against the wall, your perceived comfort might vary between these aircraft, independently of actual seat width. In other words, which measurement to use is to a degree a subjective matter. The only aircraft where maximum cabin width is at the floor, and where curvature is significantly different from the other widebodies, is on the A380 upper deck.

Another consideration is tapering of the fuselage towards the front and rear. Especially the A330 and 777 has significant tapering, which reduces seat width in large parts of the cabin. For the last few seat rows, it is not possible to reduce seat width any further, so these rows has one less seat abreast.

The 737, 787 and 77X, at respectively 6, 9 and 10 abreast, offer the same seat width in economy class. The A321 and A330 can have the exact same economy seats installed at respectively 6 and 8 abreast. The A350 at 9 abreast has the smallest seat width in standard economy among Airbus aircraft. It is still not as tight as the 737, 787 and 77X @ 6, 9 and 10 abreast.
 
gloom
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Fri Jan 05, 2018 8:04 pm

RJMAZ wrote:
So the aircraft with maximum width at floor level will be many inchs narrower at shoulder level.


Correct.

The question is - does it matter that much? After all, it influences only 2 seats (window seats). Does it influence these enough for the passengers involved? I've seen no evidence of such claims, however it is quite possible. Could be no factor, really. And bothers just 2 persons out of 8.

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RJMAZ
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:27 pm

flipdewaf wrote:
What is the dimension that dictates the width of the seat?

Shoulder height. That is the widest point of a human while sitting.

The point at which the seat touches the side of the plane also determines dictates the width. On the A380 and 747 upper deck the top of the seat hit the side first.

Having the A330's max width at floor level is great for this guy.

Image



gloom wrote:
RJMAZ wrote:
if So the aircraft with maximum width at floor level will be many inchs narrower at shoulder level.
Correct.

The question is - does it matter that much?

It does indeed. On his table that half an inch per seat puts all the Boeing products into the red.

The A380 upper deck for example. It curves in so much at shoulder level it becomes narrower than an A330, yet his table shows 9ab can fit perfect.

Shoulder height is the only point that width should be compared.

reidar76 wrote:
[The A350 at 9 abreast has the smallest seat width in standard economy among Airbus aircraft.

Actually no.

The A350 thanks to its larger overall diameter allows the floor to be lower while still being able to fit LD3's. This means the max cabin width is higher up like the 787.

The A350 is 13inch wider in terms of max width, but at shoulder level the A350 is a full 18inch wider. So the A350 seats are identical at 9 abreast as the A330 is at 8 abreast.

I suggest finding the cabin width at say 90cm from floor level.
 
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Re: 8 Abreast 787 vs 8 Abreast A330neo Economics

Sat Jan 06, 2018 12:18 am

Why are we discussing 8-across Y? These are people who buy on price. In another thread it was noted that as J gets nicer (pricier) and Y gets worse, they premium economy market will grow.

And it was noted the A33NEO will compete on capital (fixed) costs. I suspect Boeing will discount the 788 to compete. The 330 reality is leasing companies purchased too many NEO speculatively and will have to undercut Airbus. This will place planes, but is a bad long term policy.

scbriml wrote:
There seems little point in trying to analyse 787 operating economics at 8 abreast in economy when, to the best of my knowledge, only one airline operates them in that configuration.

Exactly and JAL needs new management.

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