jonair8
Topic Author
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Joined: Sun Feb 25, 2007 10:10 am

SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:29 am

I recently flew on a Compass E75 out of SNA. I was excited like always to experience the usual SNA takeoff but to my surprise and disappointment, no noise abatement procedure was done. I've had several flights out of SNA on other airlines/aircraft so I knew what to expect from a passenger perspective. I just have not been on CP out of SNA. After doing a search on here, I've read a lot of previous discussions about the noise abatement procedure, although a lot of these discussions are older. Was wondering if it was possible for an airline to have a waiver to the noise abatement procedure? The Embraer 175 is a reasonably quiet aircraft, and I'm expecting some newer aircraft are quieter to the point where if they climbed normally instead of doing the SNA noise abatement, the amount of noise produced would be roughly the same either way. It's hard to believe that the crew would simply just forget to follow it.
 
a320fan
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 7:39 am

I believe it’s been pretty much a standard departure for quite a few years now.
A319, A320, A321, A330-200, A380, 737-700, 737-800, 777-200ER, 777-300, 777-300ER, 787-8, Q300
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 5061
Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 4:13 pm

jonair8 wrote:
I recently flew on a Compass E75 out of SNA. I was excited like always to experience the usual SNA takeoff but to my surprise and disappointment, no noise abatement procedure was done. I've had several flights out of SNA on other airlines/aircraft so I knew what to expect from a passenger perspective. I just have not been on CP out of SNA. After doing a search on here, I've read a lot of previous discussions about the noise abatement procedure, although a lot of these discussions are older. Was wondering if it was possible for an airline to have a waiver to the noise abatement procedure? The Embraer 175 is a reasonably quiet aircraft, and I'm expecting some newer aircraft are quieter to the point where if they climbed normally instead of doing the SNA noise abatement, the amount of noise produced would be roughly the same either way. It's hard to believe that the crew would simply just forget to follow it.


The 737-700 and -800 don’t have to do the special noise abatement procedure anymore either.
It’s just a standard takeoff profile. I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.

Unfortunately, the special takeoff procedure is pretty much a thing of the past. I like it on the AS 737-400s. That was fun. Even when they did it on the -700, it was pretty benign.
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:21 pm

They are pretty hard ovrt on the noise abatement issue down in SNA,I recall asking if we could land there in a corporate 757 and the answer was "No Way". They wouldn't even let a 737 BBJ in there at the time.
 
jetero
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:22 pm

BravoOne wrote:
They are pretty hard ovrt on the noise abatement issue down in SNA,I recall asking if we could land there in a corporate 757 and the answer was "No Way". They wouldn't even let a 737 BBJ in there at the time.


That’s because the FBOs have nowhere to park them, not because of the noise abatement procedures.
 
BravoOne
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 5:59 pm

You maybe correct regarding the space for parking over night but that was not the reason given. I might add there is always room for parking if the price is high enough. Witness, Niece, France where I have parked for seven days and had a fee for over $90,000/
 
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Web500sjc
Posts: 726
Joined: Tue Sep 15, 2009 4:23 am

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 6:08 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
I recently flew on a Compass E75 out of SNA. I was excited like always to experience the usual SNA takeoff but to my surprise and disappointment, no noise abatement procedure was done. I've had several flights out of SNA on other airlines/aircraft so I knew what to expect from a passenger perspective. I just have not been on CP out of SNA. After doing a search on here, I've read a lot of previous discussions about the noise abatement procedure, although a lot of these discussions are older. Was wondering if it was possible for an airline to have a waiver to the noise abatement procedure? The Embraer 175 is a reasonably quiet aircraft, and I'm expecting some newer aircraft are quieter to the point where if they climbed normally instead of doing the SNA noise abatement, the amount of noise produced would be roughly the same either way. It's hard to believe that the crew would simply just forget to follow it.


The 737-700 and -800 don’t have to do the special noise abatement procedure anymore either.
It’s just a standard takeoff profile. I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.

Unfortunately, the special takeoff procedure is pretty much a thing of the past. I like it on the AS 737-400s. That was fun. Even when they did it on the -700, it was pretty benign.


I think the only aircraft that do the old, full on noise abatement procedure are the MD-88/90 (if they ever go there) and the A300 (fedex 5 days a week).the 757 has a modified noise abatement procedure, but not a full on cutback like the A300.
Boiler Up!
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 8:42 pm

Web500sjc wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
I recently flew on a Compass E75 out of SNA. I was excited like always to experience the usual SNA takeoff but to my surprise and disappointment, no noise abatement procedure was done. I've had several flights out of SNA on other airlines/aircraft so I knew what to expect from a passenger perspective. I just have not been on CP out of SNA. After doing a search on here, I've read a lot of previous discussions about the noise abatement procedure, although a lot of these discussions are older. Was wondering if it was possible for an airline to have a waiver to the noise abatement procedure? The Embraer 175 is a reasonably quiet aircraft, and I'm expecting some newer aircraft are quieter to the point where if they climbed normally instead of doing the SNA noise abatement, the amount of noise produced would be roughly the same either way. It's hard to believe that the crew would simply just forget to follow it.


The 737-700 and -800 don’t have to do the special noise abatement procedure anymore either.
It’s just a standard takeoff profile. I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.

Unfortunately, the special takeoff procedure is pretty much a thing of the past. I like it on the AS 737-400s. That was fun. Even when they did it on the -700, it was pretty benign.


I think the only aircraft that do the old, full on noise abatement procedure are the MD-88/90 (if they ever go there) and the A300 (fedex 5 days a week).the 757 has a modified noise abatement procedure, but not a full on cutback like the A300.


The 757 has it programmed into the Autothrottle. There is a formula they use that is the same as all other models that do it. The cutback thrust is such that if an engine fails, you have to maintain a 1.2% climb gradient at that thrust on one engine.
 
vikkyvik
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 9:51 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.


BoeingGuy wrote:
The 757 has it programmed into the Autothrottle. There is a formula they use that is the same as all other models that do it.


And honestly, it doesn't feel much different to any normal takeoff. The only thing noticeable was holding the brakes while the engines spooled up. After that, takeoff and climbout felt totally normal from a passenger perspective. (I flew DL's 757 out of SNA a couple months ago).
I'm watching Jeopardy. The category is worst Madonna songs. "This one from 1987 is terrible".
 
barney captain
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:19 pm

a320fan wrote:
I believe it’s been pretty much a standard departure for quite a few years now.


Not at WN.

Noise abatement profile on every takeoff, every day.

Hold brakes, 45% N1, release brakes, max thrust, climb at V2+15 to 800' AGL, reduce to cut-back thrust, hold V2+15 to 3000' AGL, normal climb thrust, retract flaps on speed. Usually a flaps 10 takeoff in the -700.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
barney captain
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:19 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
I recently flew on a Compass E75 out of SNA. I was excited like always to experience the usual SNA takeoff but to my surprise and disappointment, no noise abatement procedure was done. I've had several flights out of SNA on other airlines/aircraft so I knew what to expect from a passenger perspective. I just have not been on CP out of SNA. After doing a search on here, I've read a lot of previous discussions about the noise abatement procedure, although a lot of these discussions are older. Was wondering if it was possible for an airline to have a waiver to the noise abatement procedure? The Embraer 175 is a reasonably quiet aircraft, and I'm expecting some newer aircraft are quieter to the point where if they climbed normally instead of doing the SNA noise abatement, the amount of noise produced would be roughly the same either way. It's hard to believe that the crew would simply just forget to follow it.


The 737-700 and -800 don’t have to do the special noise abatement procedure anymore either.
It’s just a standard takeoff profile. I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.

Unfortunately, the special takeoff procedure is pretty much a thing of the past. I like it on the AS 737-400s. That was fun. Even when they did it on the -700, it was pretty benign.


See above.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BoeingGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:37 pm

barney captain wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
jonair8 wrote:
I recently flew on a Compass E75 out of SNA. I was excited like always to experience the usual SNA takeoff but to my surprise and disappointment, no noise abatement procedure was done. I've had several flights out of SNA on other airlines/aircraft so I knew what to expect from a passenger perspective. I just have not been on CP out of SNA. After doing a search on here, I've read a lot of previous discussions about the noise abatement procedure, although a lot of these discussions are older. Was wondering if it was possible for an airline to have a waiver to the noise abatement procedure? The Embraer 175 is a reasonably quiet aircraft, and I'm expecting some newer aircraft are quieter to the point where if they climbed normally instead of doing the SNA noise abatement, the amount of noise produced would be roughly the same either way. It's hard to believe that the crew would simply just forget to follow it.


The 737-700 and -800 don’t have to do the special noise abatement procedure anymore either.
It’s just a standard takeoff profile. I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.

Unfortunately, the special takeoff procedure is pretty much a thing of the past. I like it on the AS 737-400s. That was fun. Even when they did it on the -700, it was pretty benign.


See above.


To my knowledge no other airline does the cutback on the 737NG. Not AS, AA, UA, or DL. I’ve been a passenger on AS several times and it was clearly a normal profile. Why does WN still do it?
 
barney captain
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 10:38 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

The 737-700 and -800 don’t have to do the special noise abatement procedure anymore either.
It’s just a standard takeoff profile. I think the 757 is the only model that still does it. Delta flies a few in there a day, but that’s it.

Unfortunately, the special takeoff procedure is pretty much a thing of the past. I like it on the AS 737-400s. That was fun. Even when they did it on the -700, it was pretty benign.


See above.


To my knowledge no other airline does the cutback on the 737NG. Not AS, AA, UA, or DL. I’ve been a passenger on AS several times and it was clearly a normal profile. Why does WN still do it?


Great question and I think you're right - it's just WN. I think it has something to do with the number of flights we have there (a bunch) and total noise signature.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
Alias1024
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sat Feb 03, 2018 11:40 pm

Delta still flies noise abatement profiles at SNA.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
BoeingGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:23 am

Alias1024 wrote:
Delta still flies noise abatement profiles at SNA.


With the 717 and 737-700? I don’t think so.
 
Alias1024
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 12:39 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
Delta still flies noise abatement profiles at SNA.


With the 717 and 737-700? I don’t think so.

They do. It’s pretty much your regular ICAO NADP-1 noise abatement profile. Cutback at 800/1000 with acceleration height of 3000.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
BoeingGuy
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Joined: Fri Dec 10, 2010 6:01 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:01 am

Alias1024 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
Delta still flies noise abatement profiles at SNA.


With the 717 and 737-700? I don’t think so.

They do. It’s pretty much your regular ICAO NADP-1 noise abatement profile. Cutback at 800/1000 with acceleration height of 3000.


Not to my understanding. The 717, 737-700, 737-800 and some regional jets have FAA approval to fly a normal takeoff profile from SNA.
 
Redbellyguppy
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Joined: Sat Apr 01, 2017 3:57 am

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:52 am

Some of it has to do with what category noise slot you are using too. Some of the slots my airline, SWA, uses are the most stringent ones so our company blanket policy is that all flights do the cutback to guarantee compliance.
 
barney captain
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 10:36 am

Redbellyguppy wrote:
Some of it has to do with what category noise slot you are using too. Some of the slots my airline, SWA, uses are the most stringent ones so our company blanket policy is that all flights do the cutback to guarantee compliance.


Great insight Red, thanks!
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BravoOne
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 1:40 pm

Have to chuckle as several years ago we landed at LGB around 2100 in the evening. We used very trick in the book to keep this 767-200ER (JT9D's) quiet but we still rang the bell and got a letter for the Noise officials. When I spoke them on the phone a week or so later the guy said "you could have shutdown both engines and glided in" but you were still going to ring the bell with that airplane. Obviously he was trying to be funny, but I got his drift ans we never went back to LGB.
 
Alias1024
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 4:56 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Not to my understanding. The 717, 737-700, 737-800 and some regional jets have FAA approval to fly a normal takeoff profile from SNA.


Regardless of that approval, Delta still uses noise abatement profiles for all fleets at SNA.

You can add SkyWest CRJ-700s (flew them for years) and Horizon E175s (rode one yesterday out of SNA) to the list of aircraft that fly noise abatement profiles.
It is a mistake to think you can solve any major problems with just potatoes.
 
BravoOne
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 6:37 pm

BoeingGuy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

With the 717 and 737-700? I don’t think so.

They do. It’s pretty much your regular ICAO NADP-1 noise abatement profile. Cutback at 800/1000 with acceleration height of 3000.


Not to my understanding. The 717, 737-700, 737-800 and some regional jets have FAA approval to fly a normal takeoff profile from SNA.


Going to show my ignorance here but why would the FAA be asserting it's approval for a Normal takeoff profile? Aren't these noise restrictions imposed by the locals with some FAA oversight. The Newport Beach back bay community is very vocal and has in the past shown a very pro active noise program but if it works without a NADP procedure, it's just another takeoff?
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 7:29 pm

BravoOne wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
Alias1024 wrote:
They do. It’s pretty much your regular ICAO NADP-1 noise abatement profile. Cutback at 800/1000 with acceleration height of 3000.


Not to my understanding. The 717, 737-700, 737-800 and some regional jets have FAA approval to fly a normal takeoff profile from SNA.


Going to show my ignorance here but why would the FAA be asserting it's approval for a Normal takeoff profile? Aren't these noise restrictions imposed by the locals with some FAA oversight. The Newport Beach back bay community is very vocal and has in the past shown a very pro active noise program but if it works without a NADP procedure, it's just another takeoff?


Because some models of airplanes such as the 737-800s can meet the noise requirements without doing a special procedure.
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 8:39 pm

Okay I see where you're coming from now. Is this something that is reflected in the AFM?
 
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Web500sjc
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Sun Feb 04, 2018 9:26 pm

I think all the airplanes use a noise abatement profile at SNA, but it’s the “standard noise abatement profile” (NADP-1/ NADP-2)... not the severe noise abatement profile of the past where power was drastically reduced. Now it’s a reduction to normal climb power, and a continued climb with delayed flap retraction. Much more maundane and less severe.
Boiler Up!
 
barney captain
Posts: 1894
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Mon Feb 05, 2018 8:51 am

Web500sjc wrote:
I think all the airplanes use a noise abatement profile at SNA, but it’s the “standard noise abatement profile” (NADP-1/ NADP-2)... not the severe noise abatement profile of the past where power was drastically reduced. Now it’s a reduction to normal climb power, and a continued climb with delayed flap retraction. Much more maundane and less severe.


Again, not at WN. Our cutback N1 is significant - usually in the mid 70%, with normal climb N1 closer to 90%.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BoeingGuy
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Mon Feb 05, 2018 11:35 pm

barney captain wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
I think all the airplanes use a noise abatement profile at SNA, but it’s the “standard noise abatement profile” (NADP-1/ NADP-2)... not the severe noise abatement profile of the past where power was drastically reduced. Now it’s a reduction to normal climb power, and a continued climb with delayed flap retraction. Much more maundane and less severe.


Again, not at WN. Our cutback N1 is significant - usually in the mid 70%, with normal climb N1 closer to 90%.


You guys still do a full static engine run-up too, don't you?

A few years ago an AA pilot posted their SNA procedures for for the 738, 757, and MD-80. He confirmed that the 737-800 does neither a static run-up or any cutback other than normal takeoff profile. When I've flown AS out of there, it has been just a normal profile with normal thrust reduction.

As someone stated though, WN may have some different noise slots.
 
barney captain
Posts: 1894
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Tue Feb 06, 2018 2:46 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
Web500sjc wrote:
I think all the airplanes use a noise abatement profile at SNA, but it’s the “standard noise abatement profile” (NADP-1/ NADP-2)... not the severe noise abatement profile of the past where power was drastically reduced. Now it’s a reduction to normal climb power, and a continued climb with delayed flap retraction. Much more maundane and less severe.


Again, not at WN. Our cutback N1 is significant - usually in the mid 70%, with normal climb N1 closer to 90%.


You guys still do a full static engine run-up too, don't you?

A few years ago an AA pilot posted their SNA procedures for for the 738, 757, and MD-80. He confirmed that the 737-800 does neither a static run-up or any cutback other than normal takeoff profile. When I've flown AS out of there, it has been just a normal profile with normal thrust reduction.

As someone stated though, WN may have some different noise slots.


No, only to @ 45% N1 or so. We used to go all the way to the cutback N1 (75%-ish) before releasing the brakes, but no longer. We also used to every takeoff bleeds off as well, but it hasn't been that way in a long time. The procedure has gradually been modified and slightly relaxed over the years.
Southeast Of Disorder
 
BoeingGuy
Posts: 5061
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Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Tue Feb 06, 2018 3:37 am

barney captain wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:
barney captain wrote:

Again, not at WN. Our cutback N1 is significant - usually in the mid 70%, with normal climb N1 closer to 90%.


You guys still do a full static engine run-up too, don't you?

A few years ago an AA pilot posted their SNA procedures for for the 738, 757, and MD-80. He confirmed that the 737-800 does neither a static run-up or any cutback other than normal takeoff profile. When I've flown AS out of there, it has been just a normal profile with normal thrust reduction.

As someone stated though, WN may have some different noise slots.


No, only to @ 45% N1 or so. We used to go all the way to the cutback N1 (75%-ish) before releasing the brakes, but no longer. We also used to every takeoff bleeds off as well, but it hasn't been that way in a long time. The procedure has gradually been modified and slightly relaxed over the years.


That's pretty normal run-up isn't it? For example, everyday procedure on a GE 777 is to release brakes, stabilize at about 55% N1 and then push TO/GA.

I haven't seen the static run up since flying out of SNA on a AS 737-400. That was a nice jolt back into the seat.

I was told that AA changed their procedure for 757 to stop doing the static run up in about 2001. So like you said, it's been relaxed.
 
barney captain
Posts: 1894
Joined: Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:47 pm

Re: SNA Noise Abatement Procedure

Tue Feb 06, 2018 5:43 am

BoeingGuy wrote:
barney captain wrote:
BoeingGuy wrote:

You guys still do a full static engine run-up too, don't you?

A few years ago an AA pilot posted their SNA procedures for for the 738, 757, and MD-80. He confirmed that the 737-800 does neither a static run-up or any cutback other than normal takeoff profile. When I've flown AS out of there, it has been just a normal profile with normal thrust reduction.

As someone stated though, WN may have some different noise slots.


No, only to @ 45% N1 or so. We used to go all the way to the cutback N1 (75%-ish) before releasing the brakes, but no longer. We also used to every takeoff bleeds off as well, but it hasn't been that way in a long time. The procedure has gradually been modified and slightly relaxed over the years.


That's pretty normal run-up isn't it? For example, everyday procedure on a GE 777 is to release brakes, stabilize at about 55% N1 and then push TO/GA.

I haven't seen the static run up since flying out of SNA on a AS 737-400. That was a nice jolt back into the seat.

I was told that AA changed their procedure for 757 to stop doing the static run up in about 2001. So like you said, it's been relaxed.


It's a fairly normal spool-up, with the exception of the holding of the brakes. You definitely feel it as you apply max takeoff thrust while simultaneously releasing the brakes.
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