BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 7:54 pm

I believe the USN launched an F4 during the Vietnam war with both wings folded. They were screaming for the guy to punch but he said, hey this isn't so bad, and actually got back onboard the ship.

http://www.f4phantom.com/drupal/content ... ngs-folded
 
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atcsundevil
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Tue Feb 06, 2018 9:02 pm

Please stick to the topic. Petty Airbus vs. Boeing comments are unrelated to the purpose of the topic.

✈️ atcsundevil
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:16 pm

Hello:
“That is like saying civil mechanics are not real mechanics.“
I,m not able to opine, I know very oustanding civil mechanics but I’m not a one, I,m just and AME, diplomed.

Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:29 pm

I'm going to have coffee this morning with the Chief 777X Technical Pilot, so I'll ask him what happens if the wing tip fails?
 
RetiredWeasel
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 2:36 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I believe the USN launched an F4 during the Vietnam war with both wings folded. They were screaming for the guy to punch but he said, hey this isn't so bad, and actually got back onboard the ship.

http://www.f4phantom.com/drupal/content ... ngs-folded


F-4 wing folds during T/O have unfortunately happened several times. Pilots recovered the aircraft in at least 2 of the Navy incidents and 1 USAF incident. Sadly, asymmetrical folds have occurred several times and some resulted in fatalities. All of them were the results of not ensuring they were down and locked before T/O.

http://luckypuppy.bravehost.com/GALLERY ... ategory/12
 
DH106
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 5:09 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I believe the USN launched an F4 during the Vietnam war with both wings folded. They were screaming for the guy to punch but he said, hey this isn't so bad, and actually got back onboard the ship.

http://www.f4phantom.com/drupal/content ... ngs-folded


Didn't land back on the ship - read the small print. After jettisoning ordnance, landed at a base 59nm from the carrier, after a fast 170-180kt approach
...I watched c-beams glitter in the dark by the Tanhauser Gate....
 
BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:16 pm

I was led to believe that was a different event?
 
BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 6:17 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I'm going to have coffee this morning with the Chief 777X Technical Pilot, so I'll ask him what happens if the wing tip fails?



He says don't worry:)
 
chimborazo
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 07, 2018 10:10 pm

I would also say don't worry- worrying doesn't get you anywhere. Ask Jim Lovell :D

But did he answer the question: what would happen? I'm guessing not a lot: some aileron trim and higher Vref than with both down and locked?

There would be at least two pins plus hinges holding the extension in position along with redundancy on position sensors and actuators. I would bet my house that there will NEVER be an inflight failure of the folding wing design barring some external impact damage (which could happen to any aeroplane) or deliberate sabotage (likewise).
 
irelayer
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 12:53 am

If it's only supposed to be operated on the ground, then wouldn't a weight on wheels indicator tied to the retract mechanism prevent this from happening? Unless it needs to be retracted on approach or on climb-out.

-IR
 
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:34 pm

Hello: “That is like saying civil mechanics are not real mechanics.”
As I posted Yesterday, I know very oustanding civil mechanics. But I am not an expert and don’n want to argue on this matter an by the way, I’m not a one. I’m an AME, Diplomed

Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 1:52 pm

BravoOne wrote:
I believe the USN launched an F4 during the Vietnam war with both wings folded. They were screaming for the guy to punch but he said, hey this isn't so bad, and actually got back onboard the ship.

http://www.f4phantom.com/drupal/content ... ngs-folded


Hi: This is a fact, but differs a little bit from our discusion, as I’.m trying to said before.
In F-4 extraordinary example:

- Both wing tips fail to extend or were forget to extend. This should provoque a lack of wing Sustentation, but, by no means, a wing disbalance, when sustentation is more in one side compared with another.
- As know, wing load on military plane, would be much lower that in a passager liner, allowing for more controllability.
- Thrust to weight, again is much higher, which help for extreme control of plane and increasing lift, when needed by throttle up
-Pilot is trained to flight the plane in an array of conditions that a civil pilot will not encountered and for which they are not trained, just because with so low probability, it make no $ sense.
Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:12 pm

Hi: And last but...

Differences between F-4 Folded wings area multiplied by distance from Folded Wing’s “Sustantation Center” to Longitudinal Axe, compared with B777 similar dimensions, will be .......
Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
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zeke
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 2:39 pm

Apprentice wrote:
Hello: “That is like saying civil mechanics are not real mechanics.”
As I posted Yesterday, I know very oustanding civil mechanics. But I am not an expert and don’n want to argue on this matter an by the way, I’m not a one. I’m an AME, Diplomed

Rgds


Your role is still as a mechanic, not a professional or “real” engineer. It is not useful to label military pilots as being “real” pilots, you are simply inferring that civil pilots are somehow not “real”.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 08, 2018 5:15 pm

Your role is still as a mechanic, not a professional or “real” engineer. It is not useful to label military pilots as being “real” pilots, you are simply inferring that civil pilots are somehow not “real”.[/quote]


Zeke, hello:
I will not go onto this red cloth.

I already explained what I mean, a military Pilot, recive another kind of training where he must “survive” a long list of problems typical of war. By principle, simulator training for Civil Pilots, differs.

Rgds/ An AME with a Mechanic Role!
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Fri Feb 09, 2018 2:53 pm

Good Morning: MMEL is not yet posted on FAA web, of course.
Any one have a draft of this MEL/ CDL, including (O) & (M)??

Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:05 pm

zeke wrote:
cerealspiller wrote:


There is a history channel documentary on YouTube about Ziv Nadivi landing his F15 jet after losing the right wing after a mid air collision.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M359poNjvVA

There you go...

Nothing is fail safe but Boeing will design it that if the unthinkable happens, it wont result in a tragedy....

Best Regards
TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:06 pm

zeke wrote:
cerealspiller wrote:


There is a history channel documentary on YouTube about Ziv Nadivi landing his F15 jet after losing the right wing after a mid air collision.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=M359poNjvVA

There you go...

Nothing is fail safe but Boeing will design it that if the unthinkable happens, it wont result in a tragedy....

Best Regards
TRB
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:47 pm

You may recall a TWA 7O7 that landerd after a mid air as I recall an Eastern Constellation, and of course the was the Pan Am 707 out of SFO that lost a significant portion of the outer wing after an engine failure
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:58 am

TheRedBaron wrote:
There you go...

Nothing is fail safe but Boeing will design it that if the unthinkable happens, it wont result in a tragedy....

Best Regards
TRB


You stated "nothing is fail safe" and then went on to define fail safe...

"Fail safe" doesn't mean "cannot fail". It means that a system is designed such that a failure is contained. For example, if the pneumatic brakes on a train or lorry fail, the brakes will automatically engage, "failing" into the safe position.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
CCGPV
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:41 am

I believe they are using a company that specializes in construction cranes for the design of the wingtips.
Stay curious
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:42 am

BravoOne wrote:
You may recall a TWA 7O7 that landerd after a mid air as I recall an Eastern Constellation, and of course the was the Pan Am 707 out of SFO that lost a significant portion of the outer wing after an engine failure


Not just heard of it, witnessed it on the ground as the Connie broke cloud about a mile away. I was on a Boy Scout camp at Ward Pound Ridge Reservstion. Later, flew the F/Os brother.

GF
 
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spiah
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sat Feb 10, 2018 6:01 am

Apprentice wrote:
Good Morning: MMEL is not yet posted on FAA web, of course.
Any one have a draft of this MEL/ CDL, including (O) & (M)??

Rgds


MMEL/DDG/CDL are still a while out. You'll have to hang tight for another year or so, not to mention it's all still under proprietary development :?
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sun Feb 11, 2018 3:35 am

“MMEL/DDG/CDL are still a while out. You'll have to hang tight for another year or so, not to mention it's all still under proprietary development :?[/quote]

Hi, thanks for info
Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
benbeny
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sun Feb 11, 2018 10:27 am

Murphy said that:
"If you perceive that there are four possible ways in which a procedure can go wrong, and circumvent these, then a fifth way, unprepared for, will promptly develop."
Basically, failure will happen in the future, even with the best failure mitigation.

For me, I'm interested with this: what will happen if locking mechanism fails in the flight? Will we see the tip ripped off from aerodynamic loads, or will it be dangling, or will Boeing design it to fold?
And, what will happen if total power loss happens? I think they'll design it to stay locked with no power, but I'm still curious.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sun Feb 11, 2018 2:58 pm

I’m pretty sure the folding section structure and locks have to meet the same standard as the basic wing, 10*-9. So, when was the last time an airliner has lost a wing due to structural failure and Bob’s your uncle.

GF
 
OldAeroGuy
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sun Feb 11, 2018 8:35 pm

The landing gear are extracted/extended every flight with hydraulic power, have powered locks and are depowered when they reach the commanded position.

In one "g" and maneuvering flight, normal loads are to move the gear from the commanded position. An uncommanded extension of the landing gear along with the gear doors, especially in cruise, could have profound stability, control and structural effects.

Further more we routinely extend/retract the landing gear in the air while the wing tip is folded/unfolded on the ground.

We have accepted retractable landing gear on commercial airliners for over 80 years due to the performance benefits of retraction and have designed the gear accordingly. Folding wing tips can be made functionally reliable and safe in the same manner.

New features do take awhile to accept. Fifty years from now the surviving commenters on this Board will be wondering why this discussion happened.
Airplane design is easy, the difficulty is getting them to fly - Barnes Wallis
 
Newbiepilot
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 5:12 am

BREECH wrote:
Flow2706 wrote:
Risk management is not about totally avoiding an accident, because this is definitely not possible but to reduce the chance of an accident to an acceptable level.

In theory yes. In reality, risk management is the probability of an accident times out-of-court settlements. If that figure is below the profit, the chance of accident is always acceptable.


I suggest reading AC 25.1309 for how risk is managed in aircraft design. I hope your court settlement comment was a joke.

The probability of a catastrophic failure must be below 1 in 1 Billion.

https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/med ... 309-1A.pdf

In general, a failure condition resulting from a single failure mode of a device cannot be accepted as being extremely improbable. In very unusual cases, however, experienced engineering judgment may enable an assessment thdt such a failure mode is not a practical possibility. When making such an assessment, al I possible and relevant considerations should be taken into account, including all relevant attributes of the device. Service experience showing that the tai lure mode has not yet occurred may be ext~nsive, but it can never be enough. Furthermore, flightcrew or groundcrew checks have no value if a catastrophic failure mode would occur suddenly and without any prior
indication or warning.


Here is how catastrophic conditions are evaluated

Catastrophic failure conditions must be shown to be extremely improbable. Avery thorough safety assessment is necessary. The considerations described in Paragraphs /c and 7e should always be taken into account.
(1) The assessment usually consists of an appropriate combination of qualitative and quantitative analyses, such as those described in Paragraphs 9 and lU.
(2) Using experienced engineering and operational judgment, an assessment as described in Paragraph 7f is sometimes sufficient, provided that the service experience data, which should be based on commonly-used systems that are identical or have a very close similarity in their relevant
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:20 pm

BREECH, Good Morning.
I was one who talk about Wing Load, but I suppose You are not referring to me, since I'm not a "Wise Man", just a Mechanic.
In any case, there is not much about to argue. Wing Load is Just Aircraft T.O Weight divided by Wing Area (must of the cases, without considering the extra area of Slats and flaps.) For B777 300ER, at Published T.O weight of 351.533 KG and Wing Area: 436.8 M, Wing Load will be: 804.8 kg/sqM. Please check the data
F-$ 's wing load is 380 KG/sqM. Which correspond with his mission, a fighter, by definition should be much more maneuverable than a Big Commercial Transport

Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Mon Feb 12, 2018 4:49 pm

zeke wrote:
I think it would be well advanced and already presented to the FAA



Not so... It will be at least another twelve months for that.
 
Apprentice
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Tue Feb 13, 2018 3:38 am

Hi: About: “You fly around without the wingtip on the 744.”. Main function for wingtips on any a/c is to diminished parasite drag, the drag caused because part of the air tend to exhaust the wing PERPENDICULAR to medium aerodynamic chord, instead of LONGITUDINAL. Tips, acting similar to a fence, will stop this “drainage”
Wing tips also provides some “lift”, but normally You may not consider it.
DDG, consider weight inbalance and litle loss of Lift, when applying a weight pennalty....

Rgds
“An AME, with just a Mechanic Role”, as per one of our pilots
"A NO" is a positive answer., "DON'T KNOW" is not. My Tutor (a wise man)
 
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seahawk
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Tue Feb 13, 2018 8:29 am

It is really not that hard to protect the system against unintentional folding of the wing. You can make it triple save with little effort.

1. only on pilot command
2. only if the MLG indicated the aircraft is on the ground
3. mechanical lock that makes moving the locking pin impossible if the wing is experiencing any load.

You can add more requirements if you like (like ground speed below 10 km/h).
 
BravoOne
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Tue Feb 13, 2018 10:59 am

Actually if the system is armed to auto extend the wings will fold upwards as the airplane decelerates below 50Kts or so. The Jeppesen plates will be annotated with areas within the airport that designate restricted areas that require the wing tips be stowed.
 
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TheRedBaron
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Wed Feb 14, 2018 8:04 pm

Starlionblue wrote:
TheRedBaron wrote:
There you go...

Nothing is fail safe but Boeing will design it that if the unthinkable happens, it wont result in a tragedy....

Best Regards
TRB


You stated "nothing is fail safe" and then went on to define fail safe...

"Fail safe" doesn't mean "cannot fail". It means that a system is designed such that a failure is contained. For example, if the pneumatic brakes on a train or lorry fail, the brakes will automatically engage, "failing" into the safe position.



Ok fair enough I stand corrected... thanks !
The best seat in a Plane is the Jumpseat.
 
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kearnet
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 5:04 am

I'll just leave this here to give a smirk to those who know what it is:

Image
C402 9K | B1900D US | ATR72 AA | DHC8B US | CRJ2 US | E190 B6 | DC9-30 US | MD80 US/AA | B732 US | B733 US/WN | B734 US | B737 WN | B738 FJ/QF | B752 US/AA | B762 DL | B77W EK | F28 US | F100 US | A319 US | A320 B6 | A332 FJ | 380 EK
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Thu Feb 15, 2018 7:10 am

kearnet wrote:
I'll just leave this here to give a smirk to those who know what it is:

Image


A certain A300 over Baghdad?
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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kearnet
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Fri Feb 16, 2018 6:14 am

Starlionblue wrote:
kearnet wrote:
I'll just leave this here to give a smirk to those who know what it is:

Image


A certain A300 over Baghdad?


I was thinking of referencing that incident, but as the concern over the feature in question in a Boeing product, I decided to go with a slightly older but equally hair raising event.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pan_Am_Flight_843
C402 9K | B1900D US | ATR72 AA | DHC8B US | CRJ2 US | E190 B6 | DC9-30 US | MD80 US/AA | B732 US | B733 US/WN | B734 US | B737 WN | B738 FJ/QF | B752 US/AA | B762 DL | B77W EK | F28 US | F100 US | A319 US | A320 B6 | A332 FJ | 380 EK
 
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lightsaber
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Re: 777X. Will it fall if the wing folds?

Sun Feb 18, 2018 11:39 pm

zeke wrote:
I think it would be well advanced and already presented to the FAA

That sums it up. IIRC, the FAA demanded and analysis and more iron bird level testing. This is typical of out of the box.

To others:

For the JSF, FAA regulators were brought in.

Real estate is getting very expensive. The A321 is begging for them. I will be shocked if the MoM doesn't have them. Larger aspect ratios allow higher cruise altitude and that means less drag. It also allows higher engine loading which is more efficient.

Lightsaber
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