trevd
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PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Fri Feb 09, 2018 5:30 pm

Hearing there is a All Operator alert on GTF powered A320neo and A321neos forbidding the operation of aircraft with two engines beyond a given serial number installed on the aircraft.

Further, ETOPS operations are no longer authorized for aircraft with either of the engines beyond the affected serial number installed.

Any info on where the engine serial number breakpoint is and how many engines affected? The fact that this is for newer engine serial numbers calls into question if this related to any the recent 'fixes'.
Last edited by SQ22 on Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:48 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
kalvado
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Re: Rumor: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 6:56 pm

Looks like AD 2018-0041-E
https://ad.easa.europa.eu/blob/EASA_AD_ ... 8-0041-E_1
Posted on site few minutes after this post appeared on a.net.
 
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zeke
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:10 pm

What that basically says is two engines of the same mod which I has been less reliable should not be installed on the same airframe.
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N212R
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:20 pm

Which basically says what about the design, manufacturing and implementation process for this engine?
 
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tb727
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:34 pm

About time an Emergency AD came out. Need to iron out some problems still. Not a fan of flying them but once they are fixed they will be pretty nice.
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zeke
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 7:43 pm

N212R wrote:
Which basically says what about the design, manufacturing and implementation process for this engine?


Not much at all, this is the normal process where defects are reported, analysis made, and solution sought.

It does not impact all aircraft or all engines.
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trevd
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:05 pm

N212R wrote:
Which basically says what about the design, manufacturing and implementation process for this engine?


If indeed the latest build-standard engine, it basically says the "fix" incorporated to get deliveries back on track has a fundamental flaw that will impact production of new aircraft and spares for the existing fleet.
 
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:35 pm

trevd wrote:
N212R wrote:
Which basically says what about the design, manufacturing and implementation process for this engine?


If indeed the latest build-standard engine, it basically says the "fix" incorporated to get deliveries back on track has a fundamental flaw that will impact production of new aircraft and spares for the existing fleet.


Which it is...
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N212R
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:42 pm

zeke wrote:
N212R wrote:
Which basically says what about the design, manufacturing and implementation process for this engine?


Not much at all, this is the normal process where defects are reported, analysis made, and solution sought.

It does not impact all aircraft or all engines.


Thank you for that succinct definition of the "new" normal.
 
bigjku
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New Pratt GTF issue on A320NEO

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:47 pm

https://www.reuters.com/article/us-airbus-engine/airbus-says-issue-identified-with-recently-delivered-a320neo-pratt-whitney-gtf-engines-idUSKBN1FT2RP?il=0

Someone better at engines than me can say how serious it might or might not be but it sounds like an issue on the newly delivered engines which is no good.

Pratt needs to get its act together on these things.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 8:58 pm

Per Flightglobal https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-445789/

Only a handful engines are affected. Sound more like a manufacturing issue of some components than a design issue.
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fsabo
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:03 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Per Flightglobal https://www.flightglobal.com/news/artic ... ow-445789/

Only a handful engines are affected. Sound more like a manufacturing issue of some components than a design issue.


I am assuming the knife edge seal is not the redesigned seal. Is my assumption correct?
 
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:13 pm

trevd wrote:
If indeed the latest build-standard engine, it basically says the "fix" incorporated to get deliveries back on track has a fundamental flaw that will impact production of new aircraft and spares for the existing fleet.


We don't know that yet. As the Flightglobal article tells us:

It was not immediately clear if the recent aft modification is related to the geared turbofan engine family’s other known durability issues. Those include an air seal in the No. 3 bearing and a compressor liner that wear out years faster than the design requirement. P&W had resolved both of those problems in the fourth quarter last year, parent company United Technologies reported last month.


One will have to wait for the investigation to finish.
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Fri Feb 09, 2018 9:16 pm

zeke wrote:
What that basically says is two engines of the same mod which I has been less reliable should not be installed on the same airframe.


and
aeroplane having at least one affected engine(s) installed, ETOPS operations are not allowed

Which is a bit more harsh
 
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New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:21 pm

Unfortunately, another setback for Airbus and Pratt&Whitney. They just can't seem to catch a break it seems. Does anyone know how many frames are affected by this?

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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:37 pm

If I'm reading that correctly (and I'll admit, I don't really have a clue about all of the technical jargon in there), it sounds like if a plane has two of the latest types of engines (i.e. the ones that supposedly fixed the previous problems), then they have to be grounded within three flights until they can swap out one of the engines.
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:39 pm

That's how I read it as well.
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ScottB
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:44 pm

hOMSaR wrote:
If I'm reading that correctly (and I'll admit, I don't really have a clue about all of the technical jargon in there), it sounds like if a plane has two of the latest types of engines (i.e. the ones that supposedly fixed the previous problems), then they have to be grounded within three flights until they can swap out one of the engines.


Not just that, but no ETOPS effective immediately (or, at least, immediately after any flights with one or more of the affected engines land).
 
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:47 pm

ScottB wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
If I'm reading that correctly (and I'll admit, I don't really have a clue about all of the technical jargon in there), it sounds like if a plane has two of the latest types of engines (i.e. the ones that supposedly fixed the previous problems), then they have to be grounded within three flights until they can swap out one of the engines.


Not just that, but no ETOPS effective immediately (or, at least, immediately after any flights with one or more of the affected engines land).


Which essentially means no Trans-Atlantic flights with affected airframes. I wonder if WOW Air's engines are affected? Who else flies the NEO across the pond right now?
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ual763
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:53 pm

Wingtips56 wrote:
What engine is Hawaiian using on their 321? Are they affected?


Hawaiian has the P&W engines, but I am uncertain if their planes fall under the affected serial numbers.
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:54 pm

What engine is Hawaiian using on their 321? Are they affected?
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:57 pm

I would not want to be the project leader of the PW engine service and quality assurance... hope its something easily serviced, I know the problem on the Trents (RR) is a huge teardown of the engine to fix them. Also there is a huge backorder of engines on the NEO assy line....
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Fri Feb 09, 2018 11:58 pm

Wingtips56 wrote:
What engine is Hawaiian using on their 321? Are they affected?


Powered by Pratt & Whitney PurePower engines and ETOPS (Extended-range Twin-engine Operations) certified for lengthy overwater flights, the A321neo will allow Hawaiian to fly more direct and fuel-efficient routes.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... 21neo.html

But not sure whether theirs fall in the serial number range
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:04 am

ual763 wrote:
ScottB wrote:
hOMSaR wrote:
If I'm reading that correctly (and I'll admit, I don't really have a clue about all of the technical jargon in there), it sounds like if a plane has two of the latest types of engines (i.e. the ones that supposedly fixed the previous problems), then they have to be grounded within three flights until they can swap out one of the engines.


Not just that, but no ETOPS effective immediately (or, at least, immediately after any flights with one or more of the affected engines land).


Which essentially means no Trans-Atlantic flights with affected airframes. I wonder if WOW Air's engines are affected? Who else flies the NEO across the pond right now?

All of WowAir's NEOs have CFM LEAP 1As, which don't appear to be affected by this new memo.
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:10 am

Since this AD was put out by the Europeans, do American operators legally have to follow it as well, since the Hawaiian NEOs are also certificated by the FAA and registered in the US? Or can they still fly it until the FAA releases their AD? I'd hope that if so, they would voluntarily ground the aircraft until the engine is sorted out.
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:13 am

Wingtips56 wrote:
What engine is Hawaiian using on their 321? Are they affected?


Well, I see that one of the two HA A321s ferried from Maui to HNL yesterday, the the subsequent schedule used a 767. The other airplane is in the air.
 
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:49 am

Ugh, tough being a GTF fan....
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 12:50 am

ual763 wrote:
Since this AD was put out by the Europeans, do American operators legally have to follow it as well, since the Hawaiian NEOs are also certificated by the FAA and registered in the US? Or can they still fly it until the FAA releases their AD? I'd hope that if so, they would voluntarily ground the aircraft until the engine is sorted out.

They usually cooperate as this is safety related. But legally, no.
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 1:02 am

Wasnt P&W part of the V2500 project as well? That project also had a rocky start & introduction to service. I remember following a story on the bad blood created between the former Indian Airlines & IAE because of the V2500 problems. Indian Airlines went with CFM's for their followup orders for A320's.

But despite the rocky start, the V2500 has recovered spectacularly and I am sure P&W will recover from this f-up as well. Just hope they do without creating the kind of bad blood we saw last time. It would be repeating history, if another Indian carrier (Indigo) had a screwup with P&W because of these issues.
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zeke
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Re: More A320Neo GTF problems

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:00 am

kalvado wrote:
Which is a bit more harsh


Not really, the total number of engines and airframes impacted is small. This sort of thing has happened with lots of different engines in the past, and once fixed they go on to have a long service life.
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:07 am

ual763 wrote:
Unfortunately, another setback for Airbus and Pratt&Whitney. They just can't seem to catch a break it seems.


What part of "catching a break" has to do with building a faulty product?
 
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:20 am

N212R wrote:
ual763 wrote:
Unfortunately, another setback for Airbus and Pratt&Whitney. They just can't seem to catch a break it seems.


What part of "catching a break" has to do with building a faulty product?


Umm what's your point? It means they've had bad luck... It's not like they intentionally designed a faulty product. So yes, they cannot seem to catch a break.
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N212R
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Re: [AD] PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:06 pm

Once upon a forgotten time, they'd say you make your own luck (or your own breaks).

The point is accepting responsibility or deflecting responsibility. We know which method the human ego prefers.
 
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Airbus Halts PW A320neo Deliveries

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:13 pm

It appears that Airbus has stopped delivering A320neos with PW Engines and has not given a time on when deliveries will resume.


Airbus has stopped delivering A320neo jets powered by Pratt & Whitney geared-turbofan engines and halted pre-delivery test flights after the latest in a series of problems with the engines, two sources familiar with the matter said.

Airbus has briefed airlines and leasing companies and told them it cannot yet say how long it will take to resolve the problem, one source told Reuters on condition of anonymity.


https://www.bangkokpost.com/news/genera ... us-a320neo

I believe this is in addition to the 43 PW engines that had an AD just get issued restricting ETOPS and restricting operations.


There are 113 A320neo family aircraft powered by GTF engines in service (the CFM International LEAP-1A engine is also an option on A320neo family aircraft). According to Airbus, 43 GTF engines are affected by the AD. Both A320neos and A321neos are affected.

EASA said aircraft with two affected engines can only operate three more cycles. It is also ordering extended-range, twin-engine operations (ETOPS) limitations. Airbus has issued an Alert Operators Transmission (AOT) providing instructions “to de-pair the affected engines and discontinue [ETOPS] for aircraft fitted with affected engines,” according to EASA.


http://m.atwonline.com/engines/easa-iss ... -directive

Does anyone have any more details on the impacts?
 
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Re: [AD] PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:46 pm

43 engines is about 20 aircraft, out of 113 delivered. Flightglobal suggest the engines can be replaced by one of the spare pool:

The order to replace engines affected by the emergency airworthiness directive will further strain the demand on P&W’s pool of spare engines. The company has set aside about 40-45 engines to serve as spares while previously delivered engines are taken off wing to incorporate the durability upgrades.


This suggest spare engines already have a different modification?
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KarelXWB
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Re: Airbus Halts PW A320neo Deliveries

Sat Feb 10, 2018 2:57 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
I believe this is in addition to the 43 PW engines that had an AD just get issued restricting ETOPS and restricting operations.


Actually, the temporary delivery stop is the result of this AD. It is impossible to deliver new aircraft when the engine can operate only 3 cycles:

EASA said aircraft with two affected engines can only operate three more cycles.
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Re: Airbus Halts PW A320neo Deliveries

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:00 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Newbiepilot wrote:
I believe this is in addition to the 43 PW engines that had an AD just get issued restricting ETOPS and restricting operations.


Actually, the temporary delivery stop is the result of this AD. It is impossible to deliver new aircraft when the engine can operate only 3 cycles:

EASA said aircraft with two affected engines can only operate three more cycles.


They also stopped flight tests. That will create a big impact and would be for safety reasons
 
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:08 pm

I'd imagine flight testing would be difficult if you have to replace the engine after 3 cycles.
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Newbiepilot
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:20 pm

Antarius wrote:
Wingtips56 wrote:
What engine is Hawaiian using on their 321? Are they affected?


Powered by Pratt & Whitney PurePower engines and ETOPS (Extended-range Twin-engine Operations) certified for lengthy overwater flights, the A321neo will allow Hawaiian to fly more direct and fuel-efficient routes.

http://www.airbus.com/newsroom/press-re ... 21neo.html

But not sure whether theirs fall in the serial number range


It appears Hawaiian has subbed a 767

Who else is impacted? IndiGo indicates 3 planes are grounded

https://economictimes.indiatimes.com/in ... 864129.cms
 
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Re: New Emergency Airworthiness Directive Issued For PW Powered NEOs

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:27 pm

Newbiepilot wrote:
Who else is impacted? IndiGo indicates 3 planes are grounded


I think it's safe to assume that all P&W deliveries of December 2017 are affected.
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Re: [AD] PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:36 pm

There were at the peak in 2017 some 60 A32x gliders, but this number had been reduced. So now it will rise again, which will impact Airbus cash flow. So we now have RR and P&W with (different) big troubles. RR with a nearly out of production engine (Trent 1000 is currently being replaced by the very different but plug compatible TEN version), and P&W with infant mortality issues. We do not know how many RR gliders exist, but is it obviously in double figures. It has to be said that the aero engine business was never a walk in the park.

GE seems to be in a better position. But they have the new 777-9 engine to worry about as well as potential JV CFM issues, which may level the playing field, although I do hope not.

What make all this more hairy is the continuing very rapid growth in the passenger demand and thus the need to operate the manufacturing environment in a very hot (overheated) state. Maybe the old 'One Club' cure for overheating economies, namely higher interest rates, will cool things down. Action soon on raising interest rates may perhaps avoid the current world wide boom turning into a violent bust, a depression such as occurred in 2008? It is a good thing that we humans have a built-in optimism bias!
Last edited by Egerton on Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:45 pm, edited 1 time in total.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: [AD] PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Sat Feb 10, 2018 3:42 pm

Egerton wrote:
There were at the peak in 2017 some 60 A32x gliders, but this number had been reduced. So now it will rise again, which will impact Airbus cash flow.


Yes indeed.

For Airbus it's only February though, so they have another 10 months to get things sorted out and meet their delivery guidance. Once again it will result in a delivery rush at the end of the year.
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GalaxyFlyer
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:10 pm

The only other geared fan engine, the TFE 731, was for unrelated issues also a hand grenade in its early years. Advancing technology always has hidden torments.

GF
 
Egerton
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Re: [AD] PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:20 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
Egerton wrote:
There were at the peak in 2017 some 60 A32x gliders, but this number had been reduced. So now it will rise again, which will impact Airbus cash flow.


Yes indeed.

For Airbus it's only February though, so they have another 10 months to get things sorted out and meet their delivery guidance. Once again it will result in a delivery rush at the end of the year.


I don't know about you, but I suspect that all this unwanted and unexpected excitement will tend to cause engine manufacturers to extend the timing of EIS on new engines for new (MoM 797) or existing (A380) applications? RR has quickly got hold of 2 additional engine test beds for extended testing. Presumably there will be at least a few more test beds needed? I recall that RR had the same sort of issue on some (nuclear submarine?) power plants, which had received extended testing for 4 years, showed no problem, but on year 5 unexpected fatigue showed its ugly features.

The need for this additional testing activity on de-risking new engines will surely add a couple of years on to their EIS schedule? I have previously been extremely negative on the project now described as the MoM, and more recently suggested that it is a vapourware non starter. But it makes the EIS time frame 2025 look ridiculous, ditto the A380NEO in a similar way. Time now for RR, P&W and GE to get back their investment in current engine development, and to further de-risk new products, however long this takes.
 
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KarelXWB
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Re: [AD] PW1100G aft hub modification failure

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:25 pm

Egerton wrote:
But it makes the EIS time frame 2025 look ridiculous, ditto the A380NEO in a similar way. Time now for RR, P&W and GE to get back their investment in current engine development, and to further de-risk new products, however long this takes.


If anything, several analysts think 2027 is a more realistic timing.
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SteelChair
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:26 pm

Didn't PW assure everyone that they had spent 20 years developing the GTF and that they had it all figured out?
 
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:34 pm

SteelChair wrote:
Didn't PW assure everyone that they had spent 20 years developing the GTF and that they had it all figured out?


Ironically, the issues are not related to the gearbox itself which performs as expected. The main issues are related to other components.
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PerVG
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:36 pm

GalaxyFlyer wrote:
The only other geared fan engine, the TFE 731


There's also the ALF 502, at least.
 
SteelChair
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 4:38 pm

KarelXWB wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Didn't PW assure everyone that they had spent 20 years developing the GTF and that they had it all figured out?


Ironically, the issues are not related to the gearbox itself which performs as expected. The main issues are related to other components.


Well and good, but does it really matter? Bottom line is that PW has delivered another unreliable engine
 
Tedd
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Re: PW1100G aft hub modification failure, deliveries halted

Sat Feb 10, 2018 11:58 pm

SteelChair wrote:
KarelXWB wrote:
SteelChair wrote:
Didn't PW assure everyone that they had spent 20 years developing the GTF and that they had it all figured out?


Ironically, the issues are not related to the gearbox itself which performs as expected. The main issues are related to other components.


Well and good, but does it really matter? Bottom line is that PW has delivered another unreliable engine


You have a point which cannot be denied, & I remember someone suggesting that PW had spent 20yrs on the front
& forgot the rear. Obviously they didn`t forget, but the rear has proved troublesome since EIS & I wonder why these
problems were not detected beforehand. Could more attention have been paid to testing? Or is it the case we have
some fundamental design issues that could have only been seen after EIS?
I`m certain PW will sort their GTF eventually, but will it ever be classed as one of the great engines with such a chequered
start in life?

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Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos