brian415
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Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:00 am

Are there any airlines that put in, let's say, 8 jump seats into the passenger cabin keep the to do something "useful with the space" to keep from violating the 50 to 1 FA ratio? For example on a Boeing 737 MAX 7, a one class aircraft would presumably seat about 155 passengers, but the airline would HATE to have the passenger count exceed 150. In this hypothetical situation, the airline could install 150 passenger seats and install double the number of jump seats (let's say 8 jump seats) to allow pilots and FAs to commute to their crew base. Could this situation work in practice?
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 3:09 am

Or another way to ask this question is this: are commuting crew members sitting on jump seats (which by their nature are seats that do not have the potential to earn revenue) considered "bona fide" passengers that count towards the FA ratio or not?
 
Woodreau
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 4:42 am

If there’s room to install extra jumpseats, then that’s wasted space that is not generating revenue, the airline would rather squeeze in more seats.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:25 am

Woodreau wrote:
If there’s room to install extra jumpseats, then that’s wasted space that is not generating revenue, the airline would rather squeeze in more seats.


I believe an airline would prefer to lose 5 seats of revenue in the example I gave ... for the sake of 5 seats of marginal revenue (at 155 seats), they would need 4 FAs, instead of 3. If they can put something else in the place of 5 seats, and keep the seat count at exactly 150, they would save the salary of a crew member for each and every flight.
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 5:35 am

My statement was that installing jump seats would be more productive than having empty floor space. Presumably, the five seats of revenue would not offset the expense of a fourth FA.
 
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zeke
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:22 am

Any person that is not operating crew is a passenger regardless where they sit.
Human rights lawyers are "ambulance chasers of the very worst kind.'" - Sky News
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 7:24 am

zeke wrote:
Any person that is not operating crew is a passenger regardless where they sit.

Thank you for the clarity. I appreciate it.
 
airbazar
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 1:33 pm

zeke wrote:
Any person that is not operating crew is a passenger regardless where they sit.

This. And also, the airline is not responsible for where you chose to live and how you commute to work.
 
N353SK
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:57 pm

zeke wrote:
Any person that is not operating crew is a passenger regardless where they sit.


Not in the US apparently ... some of Expressjet's E145s have a second flight attendant jumpseat. I've been in the cockpit jumpseat while another pilot (I think he was a Continental guy) sat in the spare cabin jumpseat. 50 passengers, two jumpseaters, and one flight attendant.
 
N353SK
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Fri Mar 02, 2018 10:59 pm

airbazar wrote:
This. And also, the airline is not responsible for where you chose to live and how you commute to work.


Of course, but the fact remains that many US flight crew don't live in their domicile city and it may be in the Airline's best interest for their crews to get to work on time.
 
DiamondFlyer
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:02 am

N353SK wrote:
zeke wrote:
Any person that is not operating crew is a passenger regardless where they sit.


Not in the US apparently ... some of Expressjet's E145s have a second flight attendant jumpseat. I've been in the cockpit jumpseat while another pilot (I think he was a Continental guy) sat in the spare cabin jumpseat. 50 passengers, two jumpseaters, and one flight attendant.


A good number of the Endeavor CR9's have an extra FA jumpseat. I'm told that the SkyWest 175SC's were ordered with one as well.
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Florianopolis
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:13 am

brian415 wrote:
Are there any airlines that put in, let's say, 8 jump seats into the passenger cabin keep the to do something "useful with the space" to keep from violating the 50 to 1 FA ratio


I admire you for thinking any airline manager would be so kind to their employees - or to the employees of other airlines. No airline would intentionally crowd rows of paying passenger seats to add a row of "jumpseats" so they could add a few hundred more pounds of non-revenue weight to fly around.

That said, you'll see some airplanes (like an A319) that have more FA jumpseats than they have FAs. The rules about who can sit in them (and especially in the cockpit jumpseats) are a complicated warren of of regulations, inter-airline agreements, union pettiness, and the capriciousness of the captain. The policies are changed at least every six months in order to keep everyone confused and miserable.

I'm fairly certain that jumpseat sitters have to meet certain flight safety training requirements* (so an FA or pilot could sit in them, but not your non-crew airline employee), and are not counted in the "passenger" total for use in determining how many FAs your airplane must have.

*Except when they don't, like an air traffic controller in the cockpit. Regardless, they don't count in your 50-1 ratio.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:27 am

At my airline, if scheduling really needs you there and you tell them that you've tried to commute and missed your first flight and that you're not going to make the second flight, they'll usually end up just buying you a ticket on the flight you're trying to ride, even if it's OAL. all of a sudden you go from bottom of the standby list to top of the standby list as a revenue oversale. and then go collect your frequent flyer miles - no jumpseat needed.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 3:09 am

Florianopolis wrote:
brian415 wrote:
Are there any airlines that put in, let's say, 8 jump seats into the passenger cabin keep the to do something "useful with the space" to keep from violating the 50 to 1 FA ratio


I admire you for thinking any airline manager would be so kind to their employees - or to the employees of other airlines. No airline would intentionally crowd rows of paying passenger seats to add a row of "jumpseats" so they could add a few hundred more pounds of non-revenue weight to fly around.

That said, you'll see some airplanes (like an A319) that have more FA jumpseats than they have FAs. The rules about who can sit in them (and especially in the cockpit jumpseats) are a complicated warren of of regulations, inter-airline agreements, union pettiness, and the capriciousness of the captain. The policies are changed at least every six months in order to keep everyone confused and miserable.

I'm fairly certain that jumpseat sitters have to meet certain flight safety training requirements* (so an FA or pilot could sit in them, but not your non-crew airline employee), and are not counted in the "passenger" total for use in determining how many FAs your airplane must have.

*Except when they don't, like an air traffic controller in the cockpit. Regardless, they don't count in your 50-1 ratio.


"The policies are changed at least every six months in order to keep everyone confused and miserable." :rotfl: :rotfl: :rotfl: Cockpit jump seat regs, especially interline, are indeed so complex there is no point keeping track except at your own airline.

At my airline, only safety qualified staff may sit in vacant cabin crew seats. That would be pilots and cabin crew, plus the odd other staff member who is safety qualified for some reason.

brian415 wrote:
My statement was that installing jump seats would be more productive than having empty floor space. Presumably, the five seats of revenue would not offset the expense of a fourth FA.


Those "extra" seats, passengers, luggage and catering have mass, and thus do cost extra fuel, not to mention administration. Plus you have the purchase and maintenance cost of the extra seats.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
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Qantas94Heavy
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 5:15 am

brian415 wrote:
My statement was that installing jump seats would be more productive than having empty floor space. Presumably, the five seats of revenue would not offset the expense of a fourth FA.


Most airlines use the space for extra legroom seats or business class for more revenue. It's usually cheaper to kick off a passenger on such a rare occasion instead.

Having said that, the 737 MAX 7 will have a one class capacity limit of 172, which would more than compensate for the additional FA.
 
aeropix
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 8:55 am

Since nobody actually answered the OP's question I'll jump in...

The requirement of having 1 FA per 50 seats refers to the number of INSTALLED Passenger seats, not jumpeats, cockpit seats, toilet seats, or any other kind of seating. So YES, airlines do limit the number of seats installed to avoid having an extra cabin crew onboard. This was an issue at Southwest Airlines in the 1990's when they first considered larger airplanes, for example, they considered the 737-400 fitted with 149 seats. Another example is the ubiquitous 50-seat RJ's that are built and sold this way so as to therefore only require 1 cabin crew.

To answer the OP's 2nd point, while the airline could install additional jumpseats without triggering the additional crew-requirements, they cannot be installed in the "passenger compartment", in general. So, they can only be installed as provided by the OEM as jumpseats. You cannot "cheat" by designating a row of passenger seats as "jumpseats" for example, as the OP had suggested.

Finally, if there are extra jumpseats fitted, you CAN and airlines do carry more than 50 "passengers" as jumpseaters without triggering any requirement for extra crew members because, as I stated earlier, it is a function of the number of installed Passenger seats, and not a function of how many "passengers" are on board. Imagine, for instance, that you could have up to 75 "passengers" on a 50-seat RJ if every 2-seat pair carried a lap-child and all jumpseats were occupied, still only 1 cabin crew would be required since only 50 passenger seats are fitted.
 
mmo
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 11:29 am

Just a quick observation.

First Zeke is correct in that "Jump seat riders" are not crew. For purposes of weight and balance they may be listed as crew, but when it comes to everything else they are passengers. I have worked for airlines where I as cockpit crew, if the jumpseat(s) were taken in the cockpit, I could ride in the extra, if there were any cabin jumb seats.

Secondly, there has to be additional jump seats in the aircraft. Cabin crew get checkrides and they do get training so additional seats are necessary to handle the extra crew which comes with those functions. So, it's not about the airline being thoughtful when it comes to additional seats in cabin for commuting crews.
If we weren't all crazy we'd all go insane!
 
737tanker
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sat Mar 03, 2018 12:02 pm

Florianopolis wrote:
brian415 wrote:
Are there any airlines that put in, let's say, 8 jump seats into the passenger cabin keep the to do something "useful with the space" to keep from violating the 50 to 1 FA ratio


I admire you for thinking any airline manager would be so kind to their employees - or to the employees of other airlines. No airline would intentionally crowd rows of paying passenger seats to add a row of "jumpseats" so they could add a few hundred more pounds of non-revenue weight to fly around.

That said, you'll see some airplanes (like an A319) that have more FA jumpseats than they have FAs. The rules about who can sit in them (and especially in the cockpit jumpseats) are a complicated warren of of regulations, inter-airline agreements, union pettiness, and the capriciousness of the captain. The policies are changed at least every six months in order to keep everyone confused and miserable.

I'm fairly certain that jumpseat sitters have to meet certain flight safety training requirements* (so an FA or pilot could sit in them, but not your non-crew airline employee), and are not counted in the "passenger" total for use in determining how many FAs your airplane must have.

*Except when they don't, like an air traffic controller in the cockpit. Regardless, they don't count in your 50-1 ratio.

At WN all employees can ride the spare F/A jumpseats.
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:00 am

Your well-informed responses (as well as humor) have been very helpful. Thank you.
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:09 am

I have a related question, but it relates to long-haul/wide body aircraft. Are relief crew considered passengers when they are on rest (e.g. awaiting duty time at the midpoint of the flight, for instance 7 hours into, a 14 hour flight)? I realize that at times, relief crew sit in the main cabin and at other times, they migrate to the crown or belly of the aircraft, wherever the crew rest area is.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 3:12 am

brian415 wrote:
I have a related question, but it relates to long-haul/wide body aircraft. Are relief crew considered passengers when they are on rest (e.g. awaiting duty time at the midpoint of the flight, for instance 7 hours into, a 14 hour flight)? I realize that at times, relief crew sit in the main cabin and at other times, they migrate to the crown or belly of the aircraft, wherever the crew rest area is.


We are typically operating crew during the whole flight. Duty time doesn't stop ticking because we are on rest. In-flight rest is thus different from positioning, AKA "paxing", which has a somewhat different calculation of duty time.

Side note: Resting in business class gives less "credit" towards duty time extension compared to resting in a bunk.

Caveat: While a lot overlaps, regs are not consistent worldwide, or even between operators.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
brian415
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 7:04 am

I love you guys in the Tech/Ops forum! Y'all are so knowledgeable, yet so laid back, humorous and helpful!
 
Passedv1
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 12:48 pm

brian415 wrote:
I have a related question, but it relates to long-haul/wide body aircraft. Are relief crew considered passengers when they are on rest (e.g. awaiting duty time at the midpoint of the flight, for instance 7 hours into, a 14 hour flight)? I realize that at times, relief crew sit in the main cabin and at other times, they migrate to the crown or belly of the aircraft, wherever the crew rest area is.


Nobody changes status enroute. The airline will have a rule about how the breaks work and how many extra FAs are needed for a given flight, but regardless of what they happen to be doing at any given moment they are crewmembers regardless.
 
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Starlionblue
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 1:10 pm

Passedv1 wrote:
brian415 wrote:
I have a related question, but it relates to long-haul/wide body aircraft. Are relief crew considered passengers when they are on rest (e.g. awaiting duty time at the midpoint of the flight, for instance 7 hours into, a 14 hour flight)? I realize that at times, relief crew sit in the main cabin and at other times, they migrate to the crown or belly of the aircraft, wherever the crew rest area is.


Nobody changes status enroute. The airline will have a rule about how the breaks work and how many extra FAs are needed for a given flight, but regardless of what they happen to be doing at any given moment they are crewmembers regardless.


Again, operator dependent, but at my airline it is possible to change from operating to positioning while enroute. However this is just a flight duty limit status change. You're still operating crew.

It's complicated, which is why we have an app which helps us figure out duty limits.
"There are no stupid questions, but there are a lot of inquisitive idiots." - John Ringo
 
mmo
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Re: Flight attendant ratio of 50 to 1 - installing excess jump seats for commuters

Sun Mar 04, 2018 2:36 pm

The other thing is on international flights, crew is always on the General Declaration (GD). The GD will have the name, passport number and crew position. It is used for immigration for the crew. There is no methodology to change their status. Even DH crew go on the GD as that allows them entry into the country.
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