26point2
Topic Author
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Joined: Wed Mar 03, 2010 6:01 am

Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 2:55 pm

“Did he say Except or Expect?”

I often wonder if pilots who don’t use English as their primary language have a problem when receiving a clearance that includes both the words Except and Expect with regards to altitude clearance. “Climb via DingDong 3 departure Except maintain 8000. Expect FL410 in 10 minutes”. I’m sure there are other clearances during enroute operation with similar phraseology.

The 2 words sound very much alike and spelled nearly the same. Surely this anagram has caused some confusion to non-English speakers. No?
 
BravoOne
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:30 pm

Expect is frequently used in ATC clearances, but I do not see Except used anywhere in the Air Traffic Controllers Hand book when actually delivering a clearance. Might have missed it, and of course that does not mean it has not been used in the heat of battle. Under what circumstances have you experienced this?
 
FlyHossD
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:46 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Expect is frequently used in ATC clearances, but I do not see Except used anywhere in the Air Traffic Controllers Hand book when actually delivering a clearance. Might have missed it, and of course that does not mean it has not been used in the heat of battle. Under what circumstances have you experienced this?


Except is commonly used. For example, "ABC123 is cleared to DEF via the STARR1, except maintain 4,000'..."
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26point2
Topic Author
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 3:48 pm

Since the Climb/Descend Via routes were introduced the word Except is used by ATC to amend the top/bottom altitude Example: “Descend via Diamond 3 Arrival Except maintain 11000” is typically heard during a KSFO arrival from the east.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 4:30 pm

I could find any reference to that in the Air Traffic Control Order 7110.65 (729 pages) but I did find it in the Instrument Procedures Handbook (312 pages). I expect you are correct, but I can't help wonder which is proper. I have an associate who is a former FAA controller so I'll ask the question of her.
 
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zeke
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:46 pm

FlyHossD wrote:
Except is commonly used. For example, "ABC123 is cleared to DEF via the STARR1, except maintain 4,000'..."


Where is that common, as it is not ICAO
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DiamondFlyer
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 5:54 pm

zeke wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Except is commonly used. For example, "ABC123 is cleared to DEF via the STARR1, except maintain 4,000'..."


Where is that common, as it is not ICAO


The entire United States...
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zeke
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:09 pm

Hence where I said it is not ICAO.

ICAO woud be “climb via SID to 4000 ft”
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Redbellyguppy
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 6:27 pm

Substantially every clearance on a rnav sid will use except and expect. Basically every clearance I get.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:56 pm

Asked my controller resource and she was not aware of anything in the FAA Controller guidelines that would restrict that but agrees hat it could certainly cause confusion for a non native English speakers. The readback would be critical to qualifying the original clearance/instructions.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 7:57 pm

zeke wrote:
Hence where I said it is not ICAO.

ICAO woud be “climb via SID to 4000 ft”


Pretty sure that's the way we do it here in the colonies:)
 
Nicoeddf
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Joined: Thu Jan 10, 2008 7:13 am

Re: Except vs Expect

Tue Mar 06, 2018 8:21 pm

DiamondFlyer wrote:
zeke wrote:
FlyHossD wrote:
Except is commonly used. For example, "ABC123 is cleared to DEF via the STARR1, except maintain 4,000'..."


Where is that common, as it is not ICAO


The entire United States...


That's sometimes the problem with this forum. The US is confused with "everywhere" or "the world".
Especially when it comes to ATC lingo, the US makes it very challenging for non-natives at times, whereas other native English speaking countries manage exceptionally well.

Apart from that, @Zeke, fully agree, that's the proper way.
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bomber996
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Re: Except vs Expect

Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:33 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Expect is frequently used in ATC clearances, but I do not see Except used anywhere in the Air Traffic Controllers Hand book when actually delivering a clearance. Might have missed it, and of course that does not mean it has not been used in the heat of battle. Under what circumstances have you experienced this?


Look at chapter 4-2-5 part b in the 7110.65... Under the example there is a phraseology example.

Peace {box}
"We've recently upped our standards, so up yours." - Federal Aviation Administration
 
ChrisKen
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Re: Except vs Expect

Thu Mar 08, 2018 9:44 pm

deliberately left blank
 
BravoOne
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Re: Except vs Expect

Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:20 pm

bomber996 wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
Expect is frequently used in ATC clearances, but I do not see Except used anywhere in the Air Traffic Controllers Hand book when actually delivering a clearance. Might have missed it, and of course that does not mean it has not been used in the heat of battle. Under what circumstances have you experienced this?


Look at chapter 4-2-5 part b in the 7110.65... Under the example there is a phraseology example.

Peace {box}


Thanks fort the reference. WhenI look at some of these docs by eyes glaze over.:)

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