jakubz
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Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Wed Mar 07, 2018 5:56 am

So I was just looking at the FAA's IFR flight plan form https://www.faa.gov/documentLibrary/media/Form/FAA_7233-1_5-11-17.pdf and I noticed that point #13 says Alternate Airport(s), plural.

For the airline pilots on the site, what is the most number of alternates you ever saw listed for this?
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goboeing
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Wed Mar 07, 2018 6:00 am

Two or three.

It's not often you see two and I don't know if I've had three but I guess it could have happened somewhere along the way.

As you would imagine, the fuel numbers are based on the most distant alternate.
 
migair54
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Wed Mar 07, 2018 9:08 am

Usually every flight plan have 2 alternates but notice that alternates are for planning and legal purpose, crews don't have to use them in case of diversion.

you can also have ETOPS alternate, departure alternate if the weather is below landing minima at the departure aerodrome and some more cases.
 
Woodreau
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Thu Mar 08, 2018 10:56 pm

You can have a takeoff alternate because the originating airport is below landing minimums and then two destination alternates utilizing exemption 3585 due to wx and/or conditional wx below minimums at the destination and/or first alternate. (Domestic US only)

So that would be three.
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Starlionblue
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Thu Mar 08, 2018 11:54 pm

migair54 wrote:
Usually every flight plan have 2 alternates but notice that alternates are for planning and legal purpose, crews don't have to use them in case of diversion.

you can also have ETOPS alternate, departure alternate if the weather is below landing minima at the departure aerodrome and some more cases.


There's no "usually" about two alternates. It depends on company policy, regulatory policy, and the situation

There are different kinds of alternate:
- We typically use one destination alternate, but in some cases (Island Reserve) we have no alternate. We can use two alternates but I've never seen it myself. Weather requirements at the destination change based on zero, one or two alternates. Some airlines typically don't use a destination alternate at all (e.g. QF).
- ETOPS flight have en route alternates, which can be one or more depending on the route.
- A takeoff alternate may be used in case of poor weather at the origin.
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CosmicCruiser
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Fri Mar 09, 2018 1:42 am

wenever had but one unless it was needed then we had fuel for the farthest one. not counting dept. alt, or ETP alt.
 
MSJYOP28Apilot
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Fri Mar 09, 2018 7:17 am

migair54 wrote:
Usually every flight plan have 2 alternates but notice that alternates are for planning and legal purpose, crews don't have to use them in case of diversion.

you can also have ETOPS alternate, departure alternate if the weather is below landing minima at the departure aerodrome and some more cases.


That may be the case in some parts of the world but not in the USA. The FAA requires for Part 121 airline ops that the flight must land at either the destination or one of the listed destination alternates on the dispatch release unless the captain uses his emergency authority. If a crew does divert and wants to go somewhere not listed on the release and its not an emergency situation, they must get dispatcher concurrence and have the release amended to do so. On the other hand, ETOPS and departure alternates are for planning purposes as they would only be used in an emergency and a pilot can do whatever he thinks is necessary in that situation.
 
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zeke
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:31 am

Starlionblue wrote:
We can use two alternates but I've never seen it myself. Weather requirements at the destination change based on zero, one or two alternates. Some airlines typically don't use a destination alternate at all (e.g. QF).


If you have LVO at your destination or destination alternate that is when two are normally planned.
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zeke
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Fri Mar 09, 2018 11:38 am

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
That may be the case in some parts of the world but not in the USA. The FAA requires for Part 121 airline ops that the flight must land at either the destination or one of the listed destination alternates on the dispatch release unless the captain uses his emergency authority.


I would be surprised if planned ETOPS alternates are not list listed in the AFTN. There is no requirement for an airport to accept you for a non emergency situation such as a depress (the descent is an emergency the cruise at 10,000 ft isn’t).

Some of the places I fly to simply will not accept you if you have not filed it. Even if you have filed an alternate I have been rejected to using it.
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BravoOne
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Fri Mar 09, 2018 3:28 pm

zeke wrote:
MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
That may be the case in some parts of the world but not in the USA. The FAA requires for Part 121 airline ops that the flight must land at either the destination or one of the listed destination alternates on the dispatch release unless the captain uses his emergency authority.


I would be surprised if planned ETOPS alternates are not list listed in the AFTN. There is no requirement for an airport to accept you for a non emergency situation such as a depress (the descent is an emergency the cruise at 10,000 ft isn’t).

Some of the places I fly to simply will not accept you if you have not filed it. Even if you have filed an alternate I have been rejected to using it.


Not sure how you seperate the decompression and subsequent 10,000 diversion into two separate events? If this happens to a flight and it is a part of the critical fuel scenario, then the entire event would falll under an emergency event, What am I missing?
 
Adispatcher
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Fri Mar 09, 2018 4:33 pm

zeke wrote:
I would be surprised if planned ETOPS alternates are not list listed in the AFTN. There is no requirement for an airport to accept you for a non emergency situation such as a depress (the descent is an emergency the cruise at 10,000 ft isn’t).

Some of the places I fly to simply will not accept you if you have not filed it. Even if you have filed an alternate I have been rejected to using it.


Ours aren't. The ICAO flight strip sent via AFTN to all the relevant ATC facilities only lists the destination alternate, if required. I would imagine all that information goes into field 18 of the ICAO if we were to include it.
 
JAGflyer
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Sat Mar 10, 2018 4:54 am

Adispatcher wrote:
Ours aren't. The ICAO flight strip sent via AFTN to all the relevant ATC facilities only lists the destination alternate, if required. I would imagine all that information goes into field 18 of the ICAO if we were to include it.


The departure alternate/take-off alternate (TALT) is also listed on the AFTN message, usually on the last line. (ie. TALT/KBOS)
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FlyHossD
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Sun Mar 11, 2018 1:59 am

MSJYOP28Apilot wrote:
That may be the case in some parts of the world but not in the USA. The FAA requires for Part 121 airline ops that the flight must land at either the destination or one of the listed destination alternates on the dispatch release unless the captain uses his emergency authority. If a crew does divert and wants to go somewhere not listed on the release and its not an emergency situation, they must get dispatcher concurrence and have the release amended to do so. On the other hand, ETOPS and departure alternates are for planning purposes as they would only be used in an emergency and a pilot can do whatever he thinks is necessary in that situation.


Which F.A.R. is that? I'm not finding it.
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zeke
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Re: Number of alternate airports for an IFR flight plan

Sun Mar 11, 2018 3:40 am

Adispatcher wrote:
Ours aren't. The ICAO flight strip sent via AFTN to all the relevant ATC facilities only lists the destination alternate, if required. I would imagine all that information goes into field 18 of the ICAO if we were to include it.


The international standard is for them to be included in item 18 with the standard item RALT/
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