frmrCapCadet
Topic Author
Posts: 2608
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 3:00 pm

https://www.nytimes.com/2019/03/14/busi ... lanes.html

This article seems a sober discussion of the issue, and a number of insights we likely all have heard, but not discussed in one place.

And a question I have asked before. Would it be possible to rig an existing plane (two engines, piston or military two place jet trainer), so that it would offer realistic training, stall experience, or other extreme flight situations? I imagine that about all pilots would jump at the chance of spending 2-4 hours with an advanced instructor every year 'jockying' a plane around. Could such a plane duplicate somewhat the experience of a stalling jet liner?
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)
 
BravoOne
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Joined: Fri Apr 12, 2013 2:27 pm

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:42 pm

Not sure what you are trying to ask, but Extended Envelope Training, UPRT is upon the airline US airline industry effective this month. A significantly improved training program for all Part 121 operators. Low altitude, high altitude full stalls are a part of the program.

There are advanced training programs available to pilots in or outside of the airline industry but making it a part of the normal curriculum for 14,000 pilots of an individual airline is somewhat impractical.

A better solution to airline ops would be making sure you don't have any 200 hour pilots in the right seat of your shiny new jets.
 
WIederling
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Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 4:51 pm

BravoOne wrote:
A better solution to airline ops would be making sure you don't have any 200 hour pilots in the right seat of your shiny new jets.

What about the old geezer that get completely incoherent when they can't fly the plane on the seat of their pants into the ground with a bang?
What I'd not go for is a crew that collectively are below 1000h ( or at nearer to 1000 than 500h )
Murphy is an optimist
 
stratclub
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Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2018 10:38 pm

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:13 pm

WIederling wrote:
BravoOne wrote:
A better solution to airline ops would be making sure you don't have any 200 hour pilots in the right seat of your shiny new jets.

What about the old geezer that get completely incoherent when they can't fly the plane on the seat of their pants into the ground with a bang?
What I'd not go for is a crew that collectively are below 1000h ( or at nearer to 1000 than 500h )

Your geezer comment really is a disservice to all pilots. All pilots have to pass a flight physical and keep it current on a regular calendar basis and keep their training current. Your "old Geezer" may or may not prefer newer planes, but if he is flying the aircraft you are on he will certainly be proficient flying it and have all of his qualifications current.

There is a mandatory retirement age for pilots that is pretty much before geezer-dom sets in for most people.
 
BravoOne
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Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 8:14 pm

Is that the best argument you can give for this kind of crewing?
 
Woodreau
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Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 6:44 am

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:05 pm

Until the advent of the extended envelope training and UPRT, flight simulators didn’t have the data to simulate stalled aircraft. Now they do.

Whereas prior recurrent PCs and PTs focused on getting the instrument approaches , rejected takeoffs and rejected landings ticked off the checklist, this years UPRT was a useful training event.

You can fly acrobatic aircraft all you want but you cant simulate a stalled airliner at FL410 in that acrobatic trainer.

It was neat to see that it is possible to recover from a 130 degree bank 30 degree nose down attitude at 5000ft. No time to dawdle though.
Bonus animus sit, ab experientia. Quod salvatum fuerit de malis usu venit judicium.
 
WIederling
Posts: 7910
Joined: Sun Sep 13, 2015 2:15 pm

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:23 pm

stratclub wrote:
Your geezer comment really is a disservice to all pilots. All pilots have to pass a flight physical and keep it current on a regular calendar basis and keep their training current.


This is not about "physical" but about mindset.
US society is overvaluing perceived experience as competence.
probably based on a broken education system thinking more in trade terms than in educated scientific terms.
Murphy is an optimist
 
747Whale
Posts: 680
Joined: Fri Dec 07, 2018 7:41 pm

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Thu Mar 14, 2019 10:57 pm

BravoOne wrote:
Is that the best argument you can give for this kind of crewing?


What kind of crewing?

The original poster appears to ask if the general public can have a thrill performing simulated full stalls in transport category aircraft...using light airplanes rigged up to duplicate heavy aircraft behavior. No, not really.
 
GalaxyFlyer
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Joined: Fri Jan 01, 2016 4:44 am

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Fri Mar 15, 2019 12:13 am

I rather doubt any ab initio program has as much hand flying and emphasis on hand skills as a military program. When I went thru, it lacked CRM and crew concept, but 200 hours of intense hand flying, no FD, no autopilots, just contact, formation and instruments. Formation is great training as the “flying” part has to be subconscious—just fly the plane like bird. Observe, orient and fly without conscious thought of control inputs. Then, tackle the systems, crew resource, etc.

We learned high level stalls by...doing high level stalls and sometimes falling out of sky. Nothing like being given an unusual attitude in a jet 70⁰ nose high, airspeed falling thru 200 knots under the hood. Or 60⁰ nose down at near zero airspeed when all of sudden you’re doing 450 knots.

Actually, at NTPS, the poor throttle response on the Viper engine made the Macchi trainer pretty good duplicate for transport category plane, can’t power out.
 
frmrCapCadet
Topic Author
Posts: 2608
Joined: Thu May 29, 2008 8:24 pm

Re: Flying the Plane, versus systems management flying

Sun Mar 17, 2019 2:17 pm

Liked the replies, and I knew when I posted it was a somewhat unanswerable question. But one that will be discussed in aviation circles so long as we have pilots.
Buffet: the airline business...has eaten up capital...like..no other (business)

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