dc10
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:53 pm

Near Miss

Thu May 11, 2000 3:43 pm

Hi,
I read in the general aviation forum the a crossair plane cross the active runway while an alitalia plane was taking-off, and so rejected is take-off. My question is:
1/Is it a Near miss?
2/Who can post a near miss: pilots & ATC?
3/How do you post a near miss? By radio? What data compose a near miss?
4/To the pilots of the forum: have you ever post a Near Miss, or be the witness of one?
Thanks!
DC10
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

RE: Near Miss

Fri May 12, 2000 4:52 am

As per the FAR's its the pilot's ultimate responsibility to see and avoid other aircraft, even under an ATC enviroment. Although it's not stated specifically, as the ultimate control of the aircraft lies with the pilot and he/she must accept/decline an ATC clearence, the consequences of the action lies with the pilot. Even if controller purposely put you on a collision course with another aircraft and the visiblity is nil so you can't see the other aircraft.

With that said, a pilot and an ATC have a responsibility to report any near misses. The pilot can usually do this, in the United States, by filing an ASRS (Aviaton Safety Reporting System) form. This system gives the pilot immunity from any prosecution, except under cases of an accident where severe damage to the aircraft or injury/death to an individual has occured.

The link to ASRS is: http://asrs.arc.nasa.gov/main.htm. I suggest you check it out for more information and they have stories posted about various aviation incidents that pilots and other other people have reported.

- Neil Harrison
 
Guest

RE: Near Miss

Fri May 12, 2000 9:52 am

Hey !

I was holding short at the LONDON HEATHROW aiport when I saw a BA 747 doing a RWY incursion in front of a Landing A300. The A300 went around. It was pretty impressive.
Years later, I was doing an ILS approach, minimum (DH) was at 525'. Ceiling was around 1000'.
As I broke out of the cloud a light trainer was just in front of us, just below the clouds. We had to take an evasive action and then to go missed... I have issued the pilot and to the instructor a violation. They were operating under VFR into class E airspace...They had to review their clouds clearance, while they were both grounded for sometime.

JFL.
FAA.
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

JFL

Fri May 12, 2000 2:04 pm

Are you really from the FAA? If so, what capacity are you?

- Neil Harrison
 
dc10
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: Near Miss

Fri May 12, 2000 3:16 pm

Thanks, Pilot1113, I didn't know this site (and even the organisation): VERY interesting!
Thanks again!
Regards
DC10
 
Guest

RE: Near Middair

Sat May 13, 2000 9:12 am

To correct to the proper phraseology, we are speaking of "Near Middair Collision". A "Near Miss" is quite a non sense...
To Answer Pilot1113, it's yes, I sent you an e-mail.

Best Regards,
JFL.
 
Citation
Posts: 30
Joined: Tue Nov 08, 2005 7:03 pm

RE: Near Hit

Sun May 14, 2000 2:38 am

George Carlin, the comedian, used to say that when two airplanes come close to each other and almost hit, it should be called a Near Hit, not a Near Miss. The airplanes nearly hit each other, they didn't nearly miss each other.
 
aaron atp
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:17 pm

Asrs

Sun May 14, 2000 6:05 am

I once heard a story of a guy who had just caused an incursion, who was sitting in the pilots' lounge filling out an ASRS form. A new hire walked by, and after seeing "National Aeronautics and Space Administration" in bold letters on the top of the side where you transcribe the incident, made the comment "applying to NASA huh? I always wanted to be an astronaut! and a few other ignorant comments before the guy walked off. Apparently the other guys in the room started laughing after the initial comment.

It must've added a lot of insult to injury. Filling out an ASRS form is a very humbling experience (even if the PF only busted an altitude).


aaron


 
Guest

RE: Asrs

Sun May 14, 2000 10:05 am

Yep ! I agry and would like to add that we should not hesitate to use the NASA form. But don't forget that if a violation has been issued, the "violator" will not be prosecuted but the violation will recorded on his FAA pilot file...Just in case someone didn't know.

JFL.


note: RWY incursion is an actual Hot spot in the FAA Aviation Safety Program.
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Near Miss

Sun May 14, 2000 11:25 pm

Oddly enough, a lot of recent incursions have been a direct result of LAHSO/SIRO practices urged upon the industry by the FAA!

Nice to have a regulator on the forum, JFL!

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

Asrs

Mon May 15, 2000 8:58 am

I have to say that the ASRS is a great program to have. Without it, the FAA wouldn't know what areas need to be looked at. With this program the 'holes' in safety are addressed and remedied.

It's also a great "cover your ass" program too.  

- Neil Harrison
 
Guest

RE: Asrs

Mon May 15, 2000 9:24 am

Filling a NASA form is like I said recommended but don't think that it's to protect yourself from any FAA prosecution. Sure in some case the Agency will but in general if we have a pilot deviation, before starting a violation process, we'll meet the pilot(s) and talk about what happened (RWY incursion / Altitude Deviation / Airspace violation....FAR's violations...
The idea is to work TOGETHER to make our skies safer. If the pilot did something wrong and he present a good, cooperative and constructive attitude we'll try to fix him instead of taking him from the flight line. Revoking/Suspending a certificate is probably the sadest and most crual thing to do to a pilot ! We have the option to built with him a remedial training.
Also the greatest thing of those investigation is to know the area of deficiency: For the pilot (inducing memo to DPE/ASI, change on PTS/Area of Operation/Task for the airmen certification). But not only for the pilot but also for the ATC, for the administrator...to change the reg's.
Any information may help to make an incident/accident a "Never Again".

I have flown in half a dozen different aviation system and the US/FAA system is really the most friendly and constructive aviation administration I've seen. The problem is that a lot of US pilots have never been elswhere so they cannot appreciate how the FAA is trying to work on the side of Airmen toward a comon goal: Aviation Safety.

Sure don't take me wrong, it's not always working as good as my description but this is the actual tendancy and policy.

Best Regards,
JFL.
 
aaron atp
Posts: 517
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 1:17 pm

I'm From The FAA And I'm Here To Help

Mon May 15, 2000 9:58 am

You know they invented wheelbarrows to teach FAA inspectors to walk on their hind legs.

— Marty Caidin



I love that one...  

aaron
 
Guest

RE: I'm From The FAA And I'm Here To Help

Mon May 15, 2000 11:20 pm

It's a good one ! 

JF.
 
Heckler
Posts: 3
Joined: Sun Nov 18, 2007 6:56 pm

RE: Near Miss

Thu May 18, 2000 1:18 am

DC10,

The incident you are refering to isn't a near miss but a runway incursion. A runway incursion is whenever a vechicle, acft, or person crosses an active runway without authorization. Now if a controller told the vechicle or acft to cross in front of a departing or landing acft it's an operational error.

A near miss can be filed by the pilot or ATC. In the terminal enviroment the seperation standards are 3 miles horizontal and 1,000 feet vertical. In the enroute enviroment the horizontal seperation increases to 5 miles.

As a controller I've seen more near misses than I care to think about.

Mike
 
Pilot1113
Posts: 2276
Joined: Thu Aug 05, 1999 1:42 pm

Heckler

Thu May 18, 2000 1:59 pm

You're an ATC? Cool! Another industry specialist joins the forum!  

Anyhow, where do you work?

- Neil Harrison
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Near Miss

Thu May 18, 2000 2:49 pm

Howdy Heckler. Welcome aboard.

I think George Carlin said it best, 'cuz that's what one feels like when confronted with the situation first hand.

It's not "Thank God we missed him" so much as "Holy S***, we nearly hit him!" with the resultant laundry post scenario.

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Ben2
Posts: 143
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 2004 2:30 am

RE: Heckler

Thu May 18, 2000 3:29 pm

It's nice to have an ATC'er here. Welcome aboard.

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