maor
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 12:15 am

*engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 2:09 am

hell all how are you doing ..


listen i got a really complicated question here so if you are ready to answer it be my guest..

okey
here it goes..

i wanna know everything about the engine failure procedure..

from the moment you notice there is a problem with one of the engines to the moment you shut it off and then how do you cruise ... and especially important .. how do you land the plane with one engine flaps settings setting speeds etc etc....

(
please its very importent to me ..

so if you could take the time to answer it you're the best.


best of regards
maor


 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: *engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 12:33 pm

Good timing -- I'm going to recurrent training next week. The following is specific to MD90s, but generally is very similar for most airliners and airlines.

>from the moment you notice there is a problem
>with one of the engines...

You'll notice it in any number of ways you can imagine. If you're real good you'll probably see a very slight oil pressure fluctuation or slow decrease as a first sign of possible problem; but realistically, think more in terms of a caution light and/or aural warning (bell, horn or whatever the particular aircraft uses).

Procedurally, there really is no procedure at this point as there are too many variables. Ultimately the captain will either decide to shutdown the engine as a precaution, continue operating the engine with caution, or the situation may deteriorate to the point that procedurally the crew is required to shutdown the engine.

>...to the moment you shut it off...

AA utilizes two basic scenarios that are basically (a) Major Damage/Fire and (b) no major damage/no fire.

(a) Engine Failure/Inflight Engine Shutdown.
-- Throttle (affected engine)........ IDLE
-- Fuel Switch (affected engine)....OFF
(the engine is now effectively off and windmilling)
-- Pneu X-Feed Valve (affected engine).....CLOSE
(isolates bleed air systems)
-- Fuel PUMPS Switches and Fuel X-Feed Lever....AS REQUIRED.
(turn of unused pumps and permit use of all fuel to remaining engine)
-- Electrical Loads.........................CHECK
(not required--turn on APU to reduce load on remaining generator)
-- AIR COND SHUTOFF Switch..........OVRD
(re-establish air conditioning and pressurization)
-- AIR COND SUPPLY Switch (affected engine).....OFF
(closes valve to a/c pack)

If you suspect Fire/Severe Damage, insert the following after Fuel Switch...OFF:
ENG FIRE Handle (affected engine).... PULL
AGENT DISCH...............................1 or 2
(fire extinguisher)

That's the basic procedures, now all you've got to do is apply them to the multitude of different situations you can think of, modifing appropriately for each situation.  

>...and then how do you cruise ...

On one engine.  

>...how do you land the plane with one engine
>flaps settings setting speeds etc etc....

"Use Normal Approach Procedures."
"Use Flaps 28 for landing."
"Use Flaps 11 for go-around."

Caution using reverse thrust with only one engine.

With the above noted exceptions, everything else is a normal approach and landing. Just double the normal approach power setting on the one working engine. Its all the "what-if" stuff that gets a pilot thinking.

In real life one-engine stuff is pretty easy especially since airline pilots constantly train these scenarios all the time. Its the real odd-ball situations that can get a bit tricky.


*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
dc10
Posts: 122
Joined: Sun Apr 01, 2007 11:53 pm

RE: *engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 3:39 pm

Very interesting answer, AAR90 (and good topic by the way)!
Is it difficult to determine witch engine failed? Is there any 'chance' that the pilots shut down the wrong engine?
Thanks
DC10
 
maor
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 12:15 am

RE: *engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 9:46 pm

hello aar90 thanks for answering me ...

your answer has greatly contributed to my knowledge...

i want to clear a couple of things up
in landing you DO NOT use full flaps down ... right,..

in the approach do you make up for the lost engine by extending the rudder to the opposite heading of the working engine by thus you try to keep the plane more stable and straight as you approach the runway .. because if you wont extend the runnder the plane with one engine will simply divert to the other side ( if the right engine is out the plane will try to divert to the left .) am i right about it ?

thanks again

best of regards
maor
 
Guest

RE: *engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 9:49 pm

AAR90 raised a good point: "Caution using reverse thrust with only one engine."


Very true. The aircraft is liable to yaw off the centerline and the runway due to an assymetric thrust condition. However, our SOP is to cycle both reverse thrust levels into reverse in the hopes (I say "hopes" because there is the potential for unseen damage) that the shut down engine's bucket will still deploy--creating drag to slightly offset the assymetric condition.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: *engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 11:25 pm

>Is it difficult to determine witch engine failed?

I can only speak for myself... No.

>Is there any 'chance' that the pilots shut down
>the wrong engine?

Sure, anything is always possible and I have seen pilots elect to shutdown the wrong engine during simulator periods. I've even watched my USN students pull the wrong FIRE handle (the one not illuminated with the word "FIRE" in bright red) during training.  

>in landing you DO NOT use full flaps down ... right,..

Correct. Normally I use full flaps (40) for all landings since we're almost always very light and/or short runway ops. One-engine landings require flaps 28 primarily for improved go-around performance [remember the "what-ifs" mentioned earlier].  

>in the approach do you make up for the lost engine
>by extending the rudder to the opposite heading of
>the working engine by thus you try to keep the plane
>more stable and straight as you approach the
>runway .. because if you wont extend the runnder
>the plane with one engine will simply divert to the
>other side ( if the right engine is out the plane will
>try to divert to the left .) am i right about it ?

KISS = Keep It Simple Stupid. Just remember the "stupid" part means..... ME (the pilot).   Don't make things more complex than they need to be. Set power as required to keep the plane where you want it to fly. Set rudder as required to point the plane where you want it to point. One can get into all kinds of discussions about thrust vectors, critical engine, wing down technique/top rudder, etc., etc., etc. They don't mean a d*&# if you don't do something and that something is to FLY THE AIRPLANE. If you FLY the airplane you won't have a problem figuring out which way to push the rudder pedals

>AAR90 raised a good point: "Caution using reverse
>thrust with only one engine."

He quotes the only part not in any manual. [hehehe, that's a joke folks].  

>However, our SOP is to cycle both reverse thrust
>levels into reverse in the hopes (I say "hopes"
>because there is the potential for unseen damage)
>that the shut down engine's bucket will still deploy--
>creating drag to slightly offset the assymetric condition.

That's your written procedure? Not in AA's manual, but it is what I do anyway... with caution of course.   Then again, AA's manual says to consider zeroing out the rudder trim prior to the flare. Yeah, right. Like I want the trim changed in close to the ground? Not bloodly likely. Especially if its gonna make things much worse if I gotta go-around [another one of those nasty "what-ifs" captains are paid the big bucks to be prepared for].  

Good questions all.  
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Guest

RE: *engine Failure

Thu Sep 14, 2000 11:59 pm

"Then again, AA's manual says to consider zeroing out the rudder trim prior to the flare. Yeah, right. Like I want the trim changed in close to the ground?"

Ours the same there! It's an item that's de-briefed in the sim (as a "you might want to consider next time"), but a lot of us have kinda scratched our heads for the same reasons you brought up. What is your guess on the logic behind the zeroing out the trim procedure so close to the flare?
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: *engine Failure

Fri Sep 15, 2000 1:43 am

On the 727, the rudder trim is zeroed because the nose gear steering receives the input, so taking the correction out over the numbers prevents directional probs on rollout. Don't know about MD products though...

Nice discussions, all

V/r
EssentialPowr
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: *engine Failure

Fri Sep 15, 2000 10:14 am

>On the 727, the rudder trim is zeroed because the
>nose gear steering receives the input, so taking
>the correction out over the numbers prevents
>directional probs on rollout.

Only a problem once nosewheel is on the ground. Once that happens, rudder pedals and tiller are available and both have far greater authority than rudder trim. And if the pilot is _flying_ the airplane, then he'll use the rudder pedals to put the nose of the airplane where it needs to be immediately because he doesn't have to think about it!

The above reads like an engineer telling a pilot how to fly the plane. That's almost as bad as a pilot telling an engineer how to design the plane.  

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
maor
Posts: 111
Joined: Sat Jul 15, 2000 12:15 am

RE: *engine Failure

Fri Sep 15, 2000 6:39 pm

excuse me a second guys ..
i am sorry but this is a really really dumb question
but what is the difference between rudder pedals and rudder trim ? ...

thanks

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: *engine Failure

Fri Sep 15, 2000 11:43 pm

"Only a problem when the nosewheel is on the ground"

Ok. As the aerodynamic controls lose effectiveness during deceleration, does it make sense to be searching for the center position for the nose gear with the rudder pedals? As you states, you've got plenty of aerodynamic control in the flareand during the first part of the rollout; why not take the trim input out? If your company's FOM/AOM calls for removing the trim, it probably makes sense to more than a few pilots... Feedback from the nose gear steering is certainly not as precise as the flight controls. What if the runway is slick or contaminated?

V/R
EssentialPowr
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: *engine Failure

Sat Sep 16, 2000 12:30 pm

>but what is the difference between rudder pedals
>and rudder trim ? ...

A pilot controls rudder position using the rudder pedals. Rudder trim usually adjusts the center position (or at least where the pilot senses the center position to be) of said pedals. This is accomplished in a number of different ways, but two most common are to (effectively) change spring tension on the artificial feel system (full hydraulic systems) or mechanically change trim tab (aerodynamic surface on the rudder) setting.

>On the 727, the rudder trim is zeroed because the
>nose gear steering receives the input...

In most airliners the rudder pedals have at least some control over nosewheel steering when on the ground. If a trim change changes position of rudder pedals, then that changed position (out of center) is read as an indication to turn the nosewheel by the nosewheel steering mechanism.

>As the aerodynamic controls lose effectiveness during
>deceleration, does it make sense to be searching for
>the center position for the nose gear with the rudder pedals?

IF the landing is assured and you KNOW you will not need to go airborne again, then yes. [that's a real big "IF" and very small "know"]. In any case, during initial part of rollout (the high speed portion) the aerodynamic forces are much greater than nosewheel steering capability. So being "in trim" is of greater importance than potential for slight (very slight) nosewheel not perfectly straight.

>If your company's FOM/AOM calls for removing the trim,

I know of no FOM/AOM that requires this technique.

>...it probably makes sense to more than a few pilots...

I know of none. As previously mentioned, it is a "briefing item" that checkairmen seem to be required to mention during sim debrief period. None of the checkairmen who have debriefed this to me have said they would do this themselves and many have said they are simply telling pilots of this technique because they are required to tell pilots of this technique.

>Feedback from the nose gear steering is certainly not
>as precise as the flight controls. What if the runway
>is slick or contaminated?

The primary reason I do not permit trim changes in close concerns the "what if I go-around" scenarios.

But you bring up a valid point. If feedback from nosewheel steering is not as precise as from flight controls, then I want as accurate of feedback from those flight controls as possible. If runway is slick or contaminated, then nosewheel steering is even less effective and the need for accurate feedback (and control of) aerodynamic controls is even greater. Even more reasons not to change trim in close during single engine landings.

Thanks for the support.  


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