desertjets
Posts: 7563
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Thu Oct 05, 2000 2:56 pm

Why did the FAA put a speed limit in below 10000'. And is this more or less universal throughout the world?
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Thu Oct 05, 2000 6:07 pm

1. Birds (feathered);
2. Birds (light with ailerons, usually VFR);
3. Yes,

although the restriction can be waived by ATC in most places outside North America. In Canada, one can climb at speeds > 250 KIAS below 10,000 if cleared above 10,000. Waiver does not apply in Canada on descent.

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Pacific
Posts: 1043
Joined: Fri Mar 10, 2000 2:46 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Thu Oct 05, 2000 6:47 pm

Another thing I heard about that fast planes in the busy airspace below 10,000 makes it very hard for the ATC's to control the airspace.

Pacific
 
exPratt
Posts: 306
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 6:15 am

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Thu Oct 05, 2000 10:02 pm

The FAA initiated the 250 knots or less below 10,000 feet rule as a result of the United DC-8/TWA Constellation midair collision over Staten Island, New York in the early 60s. The slower speeds facilitate ATC in directing the traffic and slow down the pace for the flight crews in a high workload part of the flight. It can be waived in the event of an emergency. And I believe the FAA is conducting an operational test at IAH waiving the speed restriction.
 
Gate Keeper
Posts: 174
Joined: Tue Jan 25, 2000 11:53 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Thu Oct 05, 2000 11:30 pm

Hey Buff, check this site out. Since you will be a skipper soon this may come in handy.  

http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/CARS/cars/602e.htm#602_32

In Canada there is no requirement any longer to have a cleared altitude above 10,000' before you can exceed 250kts(unless restricted by Sid ie. YVR, YYZ).
 
Julien.M
Posts: 146
Joined: Wed Mar 08, 2000 9:22 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 5:09 am

Is it a restriction to limit the noise on the ground as well?
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 5:46 am

Good catch GK. Don't think I'll take advantage of it though for reasons 1 & 2 in my original post!

Best Regards,

Buff
 
ewr757
Posts: 354
Joined: Mon Apr 03, 2000 8:47 am

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 6:19 am


I got to disagree with this. If memory of reading of the accident serves me correct, both aircraft were holding and the UAL violated protected airspace due to excessive speed. This accident instituted standarized holding speeds.

Correct about IAH, only for departures, with approval from IAH departure control. We do it all the time at CO.
 
desertjets
Posts: 7563
Joined: Fri Feb 18, 2000 3:12 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 7:49 am

Thanks guys for the answers... that is what I thought.

How do the new speed controls work at Houston?
Stop drop and roll will not save you in hell. --- seen on a church marque in rural Virginia
 
Guest

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 10:10 am

It is my understanding that Germany is quite strict (like the US is) on this rule. I heard Germany is this way for Birds (light with ailerons, usually VFR).
Iain
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 11:11 am

>Don't think I'll take advantage of it though for reasons 1 & 2 in my original post!

Me neither. I always consider myself the second "S" in K.I.S.S.  
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
fr8tdog
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2000 4:25 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 1:56 pm

There are a number of reasons for the 250 speed limit under 10000' and 200 kts within class D, under the umbrella and VFR corridors of class B. One is the VFR rules .... 3sm vis, 500' below 1000' above 2000' lateral from the clouds. When below 10000' 250 kts is a little over 4nm/min. typical reaction time is around 30 sec. (1)identifying a potential hazard or not, (2)the reaction of where to go to avoid the hazard and moving the controls in that direction, (3) the reaction time of the airplane. 30 sec thats 2nm if you see the object right away.
Above 10000' msl the vis requirements go up to 5sm 1000' above the clouds and 1000' below the clouds 1sm lateral allowing more time for the additional speed to avoid other aircraft.
Some people are going to say BUT YOU ARE ON A IFR FLIGHT PLAN and under radar control....... that is true, however in VFR cond. it is the PILOTS responsability to see and avoid other aircraft regardless what rules you are operating under. While operating in VFR conditions, ATC gives advisary reports on traffic unless imminent contact will occur. All of this is under 18000' MSL of course. above 18000' it is Class A airspace. meaning positive control on all aircraft.

cheers .... paul
 
N1641
Posts: 201
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 2:10 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 06, 2000 2:02 pm

at this site http://www.tc.gc.ca/aviation/regserv/carac/CARS/cars/602e.htm#602_32 number 2 is 2) No person shall operate an aircraft below 3,000 feet AGL within 10 nautical miles of a controlled airport at an indicated airspeed of more than 200 knots unless authorized to do so in an air traffic control clearance.

so would this apply to takeoff also?
 
Guest

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Tue Oct 10, 2000 3:53 pm

It has nothing to do with birds. Even if you are flying a cessna 172 at 110 knots, it is almost impossible to avoid a bird. At 250 knots in a 737 it would be entirely impossible to avoid a bird. If you have flown any kind of aircraft and have seen birds in the windshield, you know just how difficult it is to avoid them. Those little birds are not such a problem, they get chopped up by the prop. You have to be careful about geese and birds of prey, they did tend to go through the windshield.
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Tue Oct 10, 2000 10:45 pm

It's not a question of avoiding birds, but avoiding the damage they do. Let the physicists explain the effect of increased velocity and force of impact!

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Panman
Posts: 603
Joined: Mon Aug 09, 1999 8:25 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Wed Oct 11, 2000 6:48 pm

Fr8tdog,

I understand what you are saying but I believe that you used the wrong phraseology.

The VFR conditions you refer to are actually VMC.

You have VFR, VMC, IFR, IMC.
VFR - Visual Flight Rules
VMC - Visual Meteoroligical Conditions
IFR - Instrument Flight Rules
IMC Instrument Meteoroligical Conditions.

You can fly IFR or VFR in VMC.
You can only fly IFR in IMC.

So what you may have been saying is that it is the pilots responsibility under VMC conditions (even with an IFR flightplan) to see and avoid other aircraft.

N'est Pas?

paNMan
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Wed Oct 11, 2000 11:58 pm

No actually, I meant VFR, as in an aircraft that is not necessarily in contact with ATC or even with a transponder. So while in VMC, VFR traffic is a potential hazard to aircraft under IFR. Pilots flying IFR tend to forget to look outside in busy terminal environments, especially when it's VMC. (The only one really, REALLY close near miss I've had was in complete and total IMC, by the way, and that was a visual avoidance manoeuvre.) Yes, you're right about "responsibility" in VMC conditions.

Best Regards,

Buff
 
fr8tdog
Posts: 120
Joined: Wed Feb 16, 2000 4:25 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 13, 2000 1:28 pm

PanMan,
Yes I concur with the different meanings, However its the rules that define what and how we fly. for an example: In class G airspace a VFR pilot can file a VFR flight plan and Fly under VMC in 1sm of visability. Is that safe? good question ... Each flight is unique in its own enviroment.
I have been a pilot for 11yrs and worked as a flight Instructor (ratings which I still hold current), Freight (day, night, VMC and IMC) and currently an airline pilot.
The meanings are the same between IMC and IFR or VMC or VFR it depends on what level that you are flying at, is where they get used.... student pilots thru instrument and commercial pilots generally use the term IFR or VFR. While the Airlines use VMC or IMC.

I am sorry if I had confused any readers on the subject.
Blue skys and tailwinds to all Fr8tdog
 
Buff
Posts: 1066
Joined: Fri Mar 16, 2007 1:29 pm

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Fri Oct 13, 2000 4:12 pm

Ooops. I did it again. Sorry for butting in - I didn't see the address to Fr8tdog. I "assumed" that 'cuz paNMan's post followed mine, it was mine he was commenting upon.

My apologies - hope I didn't steal anybody's thunder!

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Guest

RE: Why 250 Below 10,000'?

Tue Oct 17, 2000 9:26 am

Because the FAA doesn't want any of us to have fun!!!

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