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Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:16 am

I was flying once (In the USA), and I heard ATC said 'United *** can you do 270' I wondered if he meant, heading, flight level, or airspeed. It seems a little bit sloppy RT to me, I just thought I would tell you this after reading the topic 'Right turn 095'.
Iain
 
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c172akula
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:19 am

I'm guessing that ATC was referring to speed. Usually at Calgary ATC will tell aircraft being vectored in to land "cross "x" beacon at 160 or less". Hope that helps.
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 4:33 am

I guess it was in referance to a very recent radio transmission. I know in the UK if they give you a heading they generally put a 5 on the end so you do not confuse it with flight level or airspeed, however I have not heard of this practice in the US.
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:36 am

Depends on the circumstances, but...

I would say the case is more likely that they were asking for a two seventy turn.

A 270 turn is a method of extending your downwind before turning to base--especially if they were sequenced with slow traffic. I think this is a more manageable procudure than a 360 away from the airport or wicked s turns on final.
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 6:39 am

See how confusing it is, we have 3 different pilots suggesting 3 different things, and any one of them could be right!
Iain
 
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c172akula
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:20 am

I guess that is why we fly, for the challenge of understanding ATC. Can you imagine the three of us up there in separate planes doing three different things to one sentence! Outstanding! hehe
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:23 am

It sounds like airspeed to me.

We all know that the airspeed limitations in a Class B (I'm expecting that this where you heard it) is 250 knots. Perhaps the controller wanted faster for sequencing and 20 knots faster doesn't sound totally off base.

- Neil Harrison
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:37 am

>>Can you imagine the three of us up there in separate planes doing three different things to one sentence<<

Imagen if we where all in the same plane trying to figure out what they want us to do!
Iain
 
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c172akula
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 7:39 am

"CRM? We don't need no stinkin' CRM!" oh yeah  Big thumbs up
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:15 am

That sounds like an airspeed request to me... idont really see the point in asking if an aircraft can do a heading unless there is weather in the area.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:22 am

"Sounds Like", " I guess it's", "Could Be".

Only one way to find out and who cares anyway??? Ask United or the Controller! If you heard what was said just before the "can you do 270" or just after then I suspect you would have your answer. You really think someone here heard it too??
 
FLY 8
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:23 am

That´s the reason why I always force myself to repeat everything ATC advised me to do.

For example: Descent level 270. I say: Descent level 270. Not descent 270.

You always have to repeat what you are doing. Like Altitudes and headings.
Not just : "270"
That could be heading 270 or flight level 270 or speed 270 or a 270* turn.

In most of the cases it is clear what ATC means, but there can be fatal misunderstandings!!

yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:37 am

MAx Power, my topic was about sloppy RT, not what they meant. The confusion in the forum proves my point! I have been reading some of your posts, and honestly I am not too impressed. We do not come here to have some uneducated person question everything we do!
Iain
 
Guest

Iainhol

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:51 am

Oh, well I will certainly be a much better person as soon as I am as smart as you. I keep trying. Not trying to impress you either, I ask you, how did you get such education and perceptive skills to know that I am uneducated ?

Now I'm impressed with you.
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 9:58 am

Max Power your conduct says enough!
Iain
 
AAR90
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:02 am

>"... can you do 270?"

ATC is questioning the airplane to see if it can fly 270 knots indicated airspeed.

Heading query would by "... can you do a left (or right) 270 turn?"

For those who live in the ATC world, it is clear and concise -- just how we want it.  Big grin
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 10:23 am

AAR don't you think it would be much safer to say knots, flight level, ect. As if you pick the wrong one, you might find yourself in a lot of trouble!
Iain
 
Buff
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:28 am

See how confusing it is, we have 3 different pilots suggesting 3 different things, and any one of them could be right!
Iain


You haven't given enough information to give an accurate answer. One needs what was said before and after to make a proper response.

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 11:52 am

Buff, the topic got a little of track, it was an exmaple of how confusing the radios can be. I am sure the crew knew exactly what the controller wanted them to do, or they would have asked questions!
Iain
 
JG
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:56 pm

Iain,

Not to put salt in an open wound but maybe Max Power's comments are not that far off in this thread.

You said yourself in your last post "Buff, the topic got a little of track, it was an exmaple of how confusing the radios can be. I am sure the crew knew exactly what the controller wanted them to do, or they would have asked questions!"

Much like walking into a room of women and the last word you hear is "sex." Hmmm, what did they mean? Sex with me, sex among themselves, drinking "Sex on the Beach," sex of one's parakeet, brickheadedness of the male sex?. I am just one person, not 3, and I came up with all of these myself. (not proud of that fact)

Often controllers and pilots engage in conversations that can only be understood in context. If you were privy to only a small part of this request, of course it would be confusing. The request was probably crystal clear to those involved. Unless I have horribly misunderstood the original post, you should not waste your time with all of the maybe's, whatif's, etc. as Max suggested. He may not deserve the support but he is right to a point. (Max, I feel your flames a comming... don't bother)

JG




 
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wilcharl
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RE: Can You Do 270

Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:59 pm

"I am sure the crew knew exactly what the controller wanted them to do, or they would have asked questions! "

So often a failure in communication occurs, Look at the Avianca 707 that became a glider and crashed into Long Island. You can not always assume that a person is going to question something, more often or not a human will go with what they expect to here.. Human factors are always involved in any incidnet/accidnet and a failure to communicate is often there...
the classic:

Takeoff Power

Does that mean set the throttle to take off thrust
or Take the power off and take the power back to idle as in taking off power

Look at Tenierief (i kant spel) Well seasoned old man van, KLM's poster child of a captain, whoops! Thought they said it was clear to take off, guess not kinda had another 747 sitting there...

Never ever assume that someone knows what you mean, and never expect somone to question you if you give them unclear directions.
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Can You Do 270

Wed Mar 21, 2001 12:58 pm

There once was a First Officer who came to work very depressed because his wife was going to leave him.

Anyhow he and the Captain complete the preflight checks and paperwork. The passengers are then loaded aboard and the doors are closed. They taxi out to the runway and get immediate clearence to take-off.

Shortly after rotation the Captain turns to his First Officer and says, "cheer up" and the First Officer felt better.

Or so the story goes...

- Neil Harrison
 
Aero42
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RE: Can You Do 270

Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:55 pm

I'm almost positve that that would be a request for a 270 degree turn. An inquiry to see if an aircraft could do 270 would seem odd. Why wouldn't they just ask, "can you do 300," or something like that, you know, rounding up. On the other hand, I've heard about pilots being forced to do 270 turns. It's happened when pilots at smaller airports are on downwind, and faster commuter aircraft on on straight-in long finals, and ATC just needs the pilot of the smaller craft, usually a piper or cessna or whatever, to take a little longer before transitioning to the base leg. Normally ATC would just tell you to extend your downwind, but if there's terrain in the way or some structure you're not allowed to overfly, they'd make you do a 270 turn to provide adequate separation.
 
Buff
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RE: Can You Do 270

Wed Mar 21, 2001 1:59 pm

I have to stand by my statement above. That is partly because I've been listening/participating in pilot/ATC communications for nearly 25 years.

If you want confusion, try flying into New York where there are three different operators using the same flight number. Add a fictional request for "XYZ 270, maintain 270" Is he talking to you, or "ABC270" or "KLM270"; is he referring to flight number, altitude, speed, heading, what?

When you operate into these busy centres (sp. = Canadian, eh?) you have to keep your ears open, and a great many times, your mouth shut. ATC can be a very intimidating experience to the weak at heart!

You have to listen good, and listen right!!!

Best Regards,

Buff
 
Pilot1113
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RE: Can You Do 270

Wed Mar 21, 2001 2:16 pm

270 seems a little odd for a turn. ATC usually instructs turns by saying either "...do a 180...", "...give me a 360...", or "...give me two(+) 360s..."

I have never heard them give 270 for spacing turn. It would require presious few seconds of math on behalf of the pilot when you have to immediately roll into that turn. Whereas with a 180, you just glance down at the DG and see where the half mark is and roll out there.

However, I could see this if the controller wanted the aircraft to turn to a heading of 270. That wasn't what was asked though.

What was, was "...can you do 270?" That implies airspeed because do is a verb and it's answering 270 (the subject that it's modifying). I hope I'm right about this, it's been a long time since I had gramma'!  Big grin

- Neil Harrison
 
modesto2
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RE: Can You Do 270

Wed Mar 21, 2001 2:46 pm

Sounds like speed to me. It's not that confusing if you know the context that the request was stated in. If you were in the plane, I'm sure you would know what to do. The only thing confusing about this ATC remark is that one sentence has been printed in an internet forum...that's not enough info to make an accurate conclusion. Thus far, it's been speculation...
 
AAR90
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RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 12:01 am

Ianhol-
>AAR don't you think it would be much safer to say knots,
>flight level, ect. As if you pick the wrong one, you might
>find yourself in a lot of trouble!

Agreed, but the statement is clearly understandable by itself. "270" is speed. For turns ATC will specify a direction (left or right) to turn without which you'll be going 180 degrees from where the controller wanted you to go. Flight Levels are spoken "2-7-0" which is not easily confused with "270."

This is not normal or "approved" ATC communications technique, but still easily understandable just on the face of it. If receiver doesn't understand the instruction, the receiver can simply ask the controller's intent. Additionally, when taken in context of _all_ other radio traffic a pilot should be able to anticipate the need for ATC speed control in most instances (if he was paying attention).  Big grin
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 2:58 am

RT....RT....RT!

It all depends on the context--true. But there is sometimes an inherent need for clarification from the controller what he/she really meant to say.

I find the following accident report to be rather thought provoking. It was an Air Cal crash in 1981 from SJC to SNA (a trip that AAR90 is probably familiar with). I haven't had the pleasure to fly into SNA yet, but it's pretty hectic.

Especially interesting are the Tower Controller's remarks--he sounds like a ring master--e.g. "Lets do it", "Go!", "I see you way out there". Although the crew of 336 took the blame, the controller and pilot partnership should have been more proactive together to avoid what happened. The CVR transcript is what should be read carefully. Hell, just read it for yourselves--it was scanned in so it's pretty rough (acrobat pdf):

http://amelia.db.erau.edu/reports/ntsb/aar/Aar81-12.pdf
 
Guest

RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:43 am

AAR I think with more experience I will be able to anticipate what the controllers are needing me to do more, however right now I like it as simple as it comes!  Smile
Iain
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:58 am

I have heard a 270 degree spacing turn for changing runways at the same time as getting spacing. That is very rare though. I still think it is an airspeed request.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
FLY 8
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RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 4:27 am

"with more expierence I will be able to anticipate what the conrollers are needing me to do"

wright, you well get a feeling for that.
But ATC should always give clear and easy to understand advises, so that everyone understand it.

I flew a lot in the US and a lot here in Europe, and my opinion is that the americans are a little bit slopy with ATC communications.
Also when I here US americans over here on the radios.

Benjamin!
yes i can handle that alone. - - -famous last words
 
XNV
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RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 1:36 pm

Regarding clarification - I saw a case examined on a TV show where the crew received a descent clearance - I can't remember the exact details - I think it was a flight somewhere in Asia - but it was something like this:

ATC: Descend two-nine hundred

Pilot thinks he has been cleared to 900 feet not two thousand nine hundred and flies the jet into the side of a mountain.

That one little word of clarification could have saved a lot of lives, and yes, ATC should have said two thousand nine hundred, and yes, why didn't they know the terrain around them and so forth but you get the point.

I agree that the statement 'can you do 270' may have made sense in context. If the plane is descending from 41,000 and is catching up to the plane ahead of it (or they are going too slow and someone is catching them) and they are still above 18,000 it would seem to make sense.

I like Fly 8's way of reading instructions back to ATC to help keep things straight.
 
Buff
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RE: Can You Do 270

Thu Mar 22, 2001 3:18 pm

Here is an example of when you might get an instruction to execute a 270 degree turn. To begin with, if you do a 180 degree turn, your heading will reverse; if you do a full 360, your heading will return to where it started.

Picture yourself on a left base to Rwy 36. In a zero wind situation, your heading for this left base would be 090. Tower advises you have a choice of a delaying manoeuvre or a go-around because there's a snowplow on the runway and by the time you're on short final, you will not be able to land. You elect the delaying manoeuvre. The Tower tells you to do a 270 turn and return to final. The execution of this manoeuvre simply means to continue your 090 heading through where the final approach would be and then to make a right turn through 270 degrees of heading. That will bring you around to a 360 heading, right on final if you timed your turn correctly. In a rate one turn, it should take 1 minute 30 seconds to execute.

Make sense?

Best Regards,

Buff

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