Guest

Single Eng. Night

Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:18 pm

How many of you fly without fear single engine night time?? And if so why?
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Single Eng. Night

Fri Apr 06, 2001 11:41 pm

Well, I wouldn't use the term "without fear." I don't fly a single engine at night without caution. Then again, I try to be careful, competent, and safe in all flying situations.

I don't think night flying is something to be avoided. Granted, you do have to be a little more careful at night, but if you exersize good judgement, I don't think flying at night is something to fear.

It's sort of like instrument flying - there is more risk involved. But as long as you as you acknowledge your extra responsibility, and use good judgement, then you can safely accomplish it.
Jack @ AUS
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 2:47 am

I agree 110% with Western! I happily fly single engine night, however I am a lot more careful from the get go! I read the squawks more carefully, and think about everything, I always get a last minute weather breifing, as clouds and mountains look the same at night! I take my time and do a very complete pre-flight, and my flight planning is a bit different, I always try and be in a reasonable distance from an airport, incase anything goes wrong. And choosing an emergency spot is very different at night, golf courses are not very good as you can not see the trees, I always had a some what empty freeway in mind!

One of my most memorable flights was back from Vegas in teh evening and when we came over the moutains and into the LA Basin, the view was brilliant. It was so clear you could see the coast, the traffic around LAX, and many other cool things! Also it is less busy at night, so you can normally get what you want. At SNA once I took off on 19L climb to 700 feet, and tear dropped onto 1L, which was wicked fun! I can not imagine being able to do that during the day! The only thing I would not do is fly over large bodies of water at night single engine (i.e. flights to Catilina).
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 3:26 am

Iain, Ok, but something does not seem right to me. You say you are more careful when flying at night with flight planning being different? If you are going from a to b what does the day or nite have to do with it? Are you saying you are not as careful during day flying? I know the engine does not know if it is dark but if it quits how far can you go? Any open space would be unknown area and your landing light would only show you what tree or trees/rocks you are going to hit  Smile And where do you find empty freeways? One's I see are either all red (tail) lites for miles or headlights in the other lane. Don't you think if it quits you will be in a "World of hurt"? Gotta be a brave man to go S/E nite it seems.
Regards.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:22 am

The difference in the planning is becuase you can not detimine if the are is a suitable places to make emergency landings at night. During the day you can use open fields, golf courses, the beach, which you can see from quite some distance away, and see things like trees rocks, ect. At night you do not know where the trees are, if they are open feilds, or lakes, or a little hill.
The real of thumb if your engine quits is you should be able to get to the area of land which is just off your nose. At 10 o'clock at night freeways are not too busy, therefore you would merge vertically instead of horizontally! I have only ever had engine problems once, and it was when I was short final, so I was lucky!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:26 am

Maxpower, i agree totally with WA727 and Iain. You are correct when you say there are less places to land at night, but then again if you fly over any mountainous region in the day you're pretty much in the same situation. An important part of aviation is "risk management". Aviation will never be totally risk free. If you're so worried about your engine failing, why bother to step outside? you might get hit by a meteor! heck, if you're not going to fly at night VFR, you can forget about IFR. All your instruments might fail simultaneously! What would you do then?! The point i'm trying to make is anything is dangerous if you look at it with enough paranoia. The best thing to do is to reasonably judge the risk and prepare accordingly.
 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:42 am

I do a good amount of night flying. Lately I have been doing it for my Instrument training. Most people do their training in the day, but doing it at night has its advantages. It offers a more lifelike environment as far as IFR flying goes. It is also less crowded and cooler in the summer.

When I do fly at night, I have this necessary urge to check everything on the pre-flight several times. Sometimes I will finish looking over everything, and then go back to the top line of the checklist and do it all again.

All in all, Western 727 got it right. Night flying inheritantly has more risks, but the name of the game is managing those risks. If the pilot does their job well, everything will be alright.

Safe and happy flying.....
 
Guest

RE: Advice!

Sat Apr 07, 2001 4:59 am

If you lose your engine, point your plane down and turn on the landing lights. If you like what you see, then jump; if not, then close your eyes!... Just kidding!

 Yeah sure
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 5:09 am

Jet Joc you got it a little confused, why would you jump if you like what you see. If you do not like what you see, you turn the light off!
Iain
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:16 am

Another technique for night cross-country flying is to plan your route so you are always within gliding distance to an airport. This isn't always possible in less densly populated areas (such as my home state), but you could minimize the risk by planning your route to take you by as many airports as you can. If you zig/zag between airports, you won't really add that much distance to your trip, and you will greatly increase your safety margin. Also, another thing to do at night is fly high. The extra altitude will give you more gliding distance, more time, and more options.

Something I learned on my private checkride. The cross country I was assigned to plan was from Provo, Utah to Battle Mountain, Nevada. I planned the going as direct as I could. This took me over vast exanses of uninhabited land. The examiner suggested that in the future, that I plan my route over main roads and cities, so that in the event of a forced landing, I wouldn't have to wait for days in the desert for someone to find me, and therefore wouldn't be subject to dehydration and exposure.

I think that principle applies to night flying to. Altering your route just a little gives you a much bigger safety margin.
Jack @ AUS
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

SLC At Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:20 am

As you may know, SLC is Class B airspace, but it is pretty laid back at night. Here's a typical clearance: "Cessna XXX radar contact, cleared into class B, resume own navigation..... wanna do some touch and goes?"
Jack @ AUS
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Iainhol

Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:30 am

I just realized that in my second post, I basically restated everything Iainhol said. Sorry about that...
Jack @ AUS
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 6:32 am

Western 727, Zig zagging at night??? If you miss a check point while zig zagging, you could find yourslef miles of course, and I am sure being lost at night is no fun! What I was trying to get accross with my reasonable distance from an airport was in gliding disatnce if the terrain below you is unsiutable for night landings.
The cross country I had to plan was from SNA to LAS, which was very simple you just followed the 15 most of the way.
You also have to be careful flying at night as oxygen is recommended at a much lower altitude (5000 feet) at night. So you have to be careful of that too!
Iain
 
PW4084
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 7:31 pm

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 7:34 am

In addition to everything already said....
I"ll fly a higher cruise altitude at night, even if it means I take on extra headwind.

Also, one thing I haven't done is single engine night IFR.  Smile
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 10:28 am

I never fly at night without being filed IFR pretty much. Night flying is by far my favorite..but i always have both the GPS in the airplane and my handheld up and running for additional spatial awarness and just incase and engine fails. I have around 50 hours or so of night time..15 or so of that being in actual IFR. One thing is for sure...do not make the mistake of leaving your strobes on when you go through clouds at night...sheeeeeesh. I try my best to shy away from mountain ranges at night, dont have to worry about too many of those down here in florida though. In general, you just make sure the airplane is in the best shape possible before you fly it, and check very very carefully on the weather, even though it is much easier to spot thunderstorms at night.

I was from atlanta... man it was so hard to get clearance to do a touch and go in the ATL class B airspace. That airport is busy as all get out 24 hours a day. We went out there at 145 in the morning... took us forever to get an approach slot... did my usual 130 knot approach all the way in to landing flare (i run 130 knot approaches quite often just for the fun of it). Anyhoo.. thats all from my end of things.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 10:38 am

XFSUgimpLB41X - I really enjoy night flying too, over 10% of my time is at night!
Reason I am posting this you went into ATL at 1:45 in the morning? I used to fly into LAX VFR at 5 o'clock in the afternoon (you know when the tower controller sounds like an auctioneer on speed?), I also went in the weekend before the Demoncratic National Convention, and both times I do not think I circled for more then 5 minutes, I also got straight in once!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
I hear you on the 120 knot final, and you float 1/2 down the runway, my landings there where never very good, however I was happy to be down!
However I give you mad props for doing it at night! I would not have done it at night, as I can imagine the taxi/raunway lights being a mess, especially as we are not as high up us the airlines so all we see is a plethora of lights, not much fun me thinks!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 12:09 pm

You Guys are are a little "off". All the pre-flight prep. will not change a thing if it quits. I did this or I do that does not make any difference when push comes to shove. I'll bet none of you have had one quit so far....I'm not paranoid and I am not interested in "risk management" Hay, if there is a risk, I will wait till the sun comes up and fly day time and if need be log it as night. Ops! I just screwed up on the side of safety..
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 9:42 pm

You are always safer, if you have prepared and thought about difficulties you might have during flight.
Night flying is great fun, and done with precautions that we have mentioned above, it is safe. Flying at night has many advantages, i.e. less taxi time, cool more dense air, pretty view, ect.
I also want to know how much you want to bet? On my phase III check a while ago, I was about 3-4 mile final and the instructor called go around (to see if I can do it) when I advanced the throttle, I got very little power, lots of vibration, and a horrible sound. I pulled the power back to idle, and advanced it slowly this time, and I experienced the same as before. I had the runway made, so I focused all my attention to landing the airplane.
Iain
 
Bill Bob
Posts: 49
Joined: Sat Apr 07, 2001 9:54 pm

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sat Apr 07, 2001 9:59 pm

Iain, wow, I'll bet that really got your attention? Nice job. Hope you did not have to have the seat covers replaced after??  Smile
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

Zigging And Zagging

Sun Apr 08, 2001 12:31 am

I'm gonna have to stick with my zig-zag/higher altitude theory, especially because I got it from the Jepp Private Pilot Manuevers Manual. It's something I read as I was reviewing for my BFR. If you have to use oxygen to accomplish that, so be it.
Jack @ AUS
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 12:34 am

Bill it sure did get my attention, however at that time you are very busy, so you really do not realise what happend until taxi back! The seat cover did not need to be changed!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
Iain
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

High Alitude

Sun Apr 08, 2001 12:39 am

See, using oxygen at 5000 ft is weird to us highlanders, because my front yard is 4500 MSL. I routinely ride my mountain bike at elevations between 7000 and 10,000 MSL. I guess you could say that I'm acclimatized. I suppose oxygen should be used if you are one who spends a lot of time at lower elevations, but none of my instructors ever worried about it, and we were flying at 7000-8000 MSL at night. Usually you have to go up that high during the day just to clear terrain. And there is no FAR (correct me if I'm wrong) that dictates the usage of oxygen at night for flight over 5000.
Jack @ AUS
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 1:02 am

There is no FAR regarding oxygen at night, it is just a reccommendation. I used to live right by the beach so it is quite a concern for me.
I still do not like the idea of zig zaging unless you are very familiar with the area, checkpoints can be very easily missed, and you can find yourself loast very easily!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: High Alitude

Sun Apr 08, 2001 1:21 am

Maxpower, If you're that worried about your engine failing at night, just plan a IFR (I Follow Roads) flightplan. Unless you live in an incrediblely remote area, there will be roads that go everywhere. On top of that, they make great night checkpoints.
There is the freak chance your engine might fail at any time when you're flying, but i will remind you almost all general aviation crashes are caused by pilot error rather than mechanical failure. Heck i bet there's been more deaths because of drunk pilots flying into moutains than deaths because of broken engines. I'm pretty sure most of the time too that most engine failures are caused by the pilot inadvertantly leaning the mixture too much or allowing ice to build in the carb.
Western 727, i too live in high altitude, and i have never had any problems flying as high as 13,000' (for less than 30 minutes of course) at night w/o oxygen.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 1:46 am

Mikey - Your comments are not only inacurate, but insulting!!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:09 am

Pilot Involvement
Specific Pilot-Related Causes
1,233 Total/247 Fatal

Mechanical/Maintenance 236 Total/19 Fatal

"Several of the mechanical-failure accidents could have been prevented by a thorough preflight."

Source: 1999 Joseph T. Nall Report
available online at :http://www.aopa.org/asf/publications/99nall.html
if you have an aopa membership

Okay i went a bit overboard with the drunken pilots bit, but this proves my point that statistically speaking, you're far more likely to cause your own crash.
The quote i included proves your point lain that a good preflight can make all the difference in the world.

 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 2:41 am

Causes or Contributing Factors, Loss of Engine Power
Cause=Fatal/Total
Human Performance=32/300
(Pilot)=28/241
(Maintenence)=5/32
(Builder)=0/5
Aircraft=17/190
Undetermined=19/117

Source: NTSB 1996 ANNUAL REVIEW OF AIRCRAFT ACCIDENT DATA U.S. GENERAL AVIATION
available at:http://www.ntsb.gov/publictn/2000/ARG0001.pdf

Iain, this source proves my point that more engine failures are caused by the pilot than by the aircraft.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:18 am

Your comments did seem very harsh, it seems to many that the NTSB blame pilots for most things.
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 5:33 am

I have a lot of single engine night time. It's the only way to deal with the Arizona Summers. It seems that the youngster (Ian) makes a good point about a good preflight, especially if you rent.

One more thought if I may. USUALLY an engine will warn you before it gives up the ghost mechanically. Unfortunately, too many pilots pay no attention to what the engine is doing, or saying to them.

It's sort of an Aircraft/Zen thing (tongue in cheek) you have to be at one with your airplane.  Smile

Blessings
Don

 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 5:56 am

Sorry for the spelling Mr. Holmes.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 6:21 am

StallSpeed no problema about the spelling, your post bought up a very good point!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 9:36 am

Why the hell would some dumbass retard fly a single engine plane at night???
 
Guest

RE: FlyerC_B757

Sun Apr 08, 2001 9:47 am

What's your problem? I've read some of your other posts, and if you had that attitude @ my school you'd get the sh*t beaten outta ya. Just a little advice: shut up...

Anyway, to respond to the original post about single eng. flying @ night... A good preflight will of course be #1; 2, fly according to your ratings and experiance. Don't try to handle something you can't, or aren't ready for; 3, get enough sleep!!! Pilot error due to fatigue is the number one reason why planes crash!

Happy flying,
Jet Joc
 Big thumbs up Big thumbs up
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:04 am

FlyerC What is wrong with flying a single at night? Remember a while ago when you informing us how smart you are. One thing you will notice about pilots is we all have respect for each other. As soon as you start taking flying lessons you can count on us, to help you by answering questions, or informing you that your cargo door is open, or your gear is not down. If you are going to complete the rest of your training, please give your fellow pilots some respect too!
Iain
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 10:18 am

When it comes to night X-C, it's my opinion that you had better be IFR rated, in an IFR equipted airplane and willing and able to fly in instrument conditions. This is for a couple of reasons: 1) You can't see clouds at night and sooner or later you're going to find yourself in some. 2) Although in many parts of the country it's not a big problem, out West you can often find yourself in an area where you have few ground lights. Mix this with a high cloud deck to eliminate the stars and you have the classic setup for a JFK, Jr. scenario. Once a VFR only pilot loses the horizon you can literally measure his life expectancy (and that of his passengers) in minutes - and precious few of them at that. "Dark hole" approaches and departures can be equally as deadly. I've lost more than ATP rated friend making VFR "dark hole" takeoffs or departures - their instrument training and experience didn't help them much when they were suddenly and unexpectedly disoriented. Just some food for thought.
 
L-188
Posts: 29881
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

RE: Single Eng. Night

Sun Apr 08, 2001 8:25 pm

There is a world of difference between night conditions too. I have been up on a Full Moon night with snow on the ground and didn't have any problems seeing terrain features on the ground. Dark of the moon right before the first snow, it will be very dark.

Night flying is nicer in a lot of regards, Generally not as much traffic, It can be easy to spot the airfeilds, Not as much turbulence.

Take care of your Airplane/engine and it will take care of you. Rules to live by.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Mon Apr 09, 2001 9:54 am

Thanks to all for the great replies. I appreciate all your imput. That is to say, all except for FlyerC_B757 who ever that jerk is??
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Single Eng. Night

Mon Apr 09, 2001 10:13 am

Apparently FlyerC_B757 has been deleted. The fact that he called anyone who has even tried to get their PPL a dumbass retard (since there is a certain amount of night time required for that) didnt help him keep his user status i dont think.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Mon Apr 09, 2001 10:30 am

Well Flyer C, you too will have to be one of us "dumb ass retards" if you ever plan on getting your private pilots licence.
 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

RE: Single Eng. Night

Mon Apr 09, 2001 12:21 pm

Iainhol is right, pilots stick up for each other and usually try to help each other out as much as possible.

That's one of the many great things about aviation. I instantly can strike up a good talk with anyone if they fly.
 
Guest

RE: Flyer C

Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:42 am

Then is it safe to assume that you would not go IFR in a single either?
 
SophieMaltese
Posts: 2023
Joined: Sat Feb 17, 2001 2:08 pm

RE: Single Eng. Night

Tue Apr 10, 2001 11:53 am

I can't wait to fly at night, but my CFI won't let me yet. Of course, I'm not scared of anything when he's in the plane. Who knows when I'll feel comfortable enough to solo, even in the day!
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Tue Apr 10, 2001 12:25 pm

My opinion of single-engine IFR has really changed. It used to not bother me at all. Now I would never even consider it unless I had a VFR ceiling underneath me the whole time. It's not the single engine that bothers me so much as the single alternator, single vaccuum pump, single this and single that, plus no radar, little if any anti/de-ice equipment - all of the stuff that you come to depend on and use when you're flying serious "got to get there" IFR. I know that you can get singles with most if not all of the "whistles and bells", but I've never flown one that was that nicely equiped.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Tue Apr 10, 2001 9:01 pm

Jetguy is right on target as far as I'm concerned. VFR under, heated pitot tubes, heated prop deice, elect windshield is a must not to mention a little ice on the leading edges and the effect that will have. Most little aircraft are only good for going up and down thru the overcast and really not much more. Unless you like to read more NTSB reports. Smile
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Wed Apr 11, 2001 6:33 am

It seems to me that one of the problems is preconceived idea, And some of those whom have answered in the negative have implied that those of us answering in the positive would go blundering into absolutely any situation with no "plan B" Would I go single engine night across the mountains of Arizona? Probably not. Would I go from Tucson to Phoenix single engine night. In a heart beat. You see ther is an airport every 20 miles, and plus there is a large freeway all the way as a "plan C".
As far as single engine IFR goes, not all IFR situations include icing conditions. (Would I fly into known ice? Thanks, but no thanks.) A good example is a San Diego summer morning. We have punched the deck many times to get in. Electrical, and Vacuum failures are something I train for. Not to say I look forward to it really happening.
The point is this. It is unfair for us to asume that because one would go single engine night, or IFR, that we would go blindly into all situations like that.
The reason that I raised the IFR question, was to see what kind of response I would get from one of our least informed, and most beligerent participants.
 
Guest

Stall Speed?

Wed Apr 11, 2001 9:42 am

I wonder who you are referring to and did he reply and take your bait??  Smile Geez hope you were not talking about me? I do get edgy with some of the posts too.
 
Guest

RE: Single Eng. Night

Thu Apr 12, 2001 5:07 am

Chill out Max. I was refering to Flyer C, and his never ending diatribe of ignorance. Although you can be a bit abrasive, your a sharp cookie. Just promise me that you will never seek a career in International Diplomacy.  Smile
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: High Alitude

Thu Apr 12, 2001 5:21 am

Yeah, going along with what Jetguy said, I'm not too excited about the "VFR-on-top" idea. At least, not in a single.
Jack @ AUS

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