Braniff747
Topic Author
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 10:10 pm

747-100 Dome Windows

Wed May 16, 2001 4:57 am

Why do some -100s have only have 3 windows on each side of the dome:


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Photo © Richard Silagi



While others have more:


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Photo © Michael F. McLaughlin



I used to think you could tell the difference between the -100 and -200 by the number of windows in the dome, but this doesn't seem the case, as the the -200's dome resembles some of the -100s:


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Photo © AirNikon



Is there an easy way to tell the difference between the -100 and -200? For example, the -300 and -400 both have the extended upper deck, but the -400 has winglets.


 
Guest

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Wed May 16, 2001 5:05 am

When airlines started putting seats up there they added some more windows that is why the 100 has more then 3 normally!
Iain
 
philb
Posts: 2645
Joined: Mon May 24, 1999 5:53 am

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Wed May 16, 2001 5:42 am

The upper deck was originally going to be a bar area - and in many cases, for a short time, was.

When passenger seats replaced the "recreational area" there were complaints about lack of windows.

Boeing offered a retro fit of up to 10 windows per side which some airlines took up BUT, though many recognition books say that 100srs with the conversion and all 200srs have ten windows per side, this is not strictly true.

The window blanks for 10 a side are there but some airlines left the odd window blanked over, depending on how it fitted out the upper deck. For instance, if the crew rest area was at the rear, the last row or two of windows may have been left blank.
 
A40-TY
Posts: 137
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 4:18 am

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Wed May 16, 2001 8:45 am

When early 747's were delivered to their customers, they were equipped with a lounge area on the upper deck, and so were fitted with a 3 window set. With the increase in oil prices in the 1970's, airlines saw the financial benefits of adding more seats on the upper deck, in turn a large number of 747's (both -100's and -200's) were converted in order to have 10 windows to cater for the increase in the number of passengers. For some reason, a smaller number of 747's retained their 3 window status (the French airline Corsair still operate a 747-100 with the 3 window set, as do Air Atlanta Icelandic who operate a couple of 747-246B's that retain their 3 window upper deck).
On your second question about 'Is it possible to identify the difference between a 747-100 and 747-200?'
The answer is yes, on some aircraft...We have already established that it is very difficult to tell a -100 from a -200 by the number of windows, however it can be possible to identify one model from the other by engine type.
Any 747 with CF6 powerplants is a -200 (or 300), as this engine option was offered on the higher gross weight model (-200). Also the Rolls Royce RB211-524D4 powered 747's are -200's, again offered on the higher gross weight 747-200. However Saudi Arabian Airlines operates a number of Rolls Royce RB211-524B 747's that are actually -100's (custom built lower thrust and weight aircraft). It is much more difficult to spot the difference between a P+W 747-100 and 747-200 as the engine design is virtually identical.
Finally, you also say that a 747-300 can be spotted easily...however, some airlines (eg. KLM and Japan Airlines) had their 747-100 and 747-200 aircraft converted with the SUD (Stretched Upper Deck) feature, so they are now technically 747-300's, but the airlines themselves call them 747-206B SUD (KLM) and Japan Airlines 747-146B SUD. Japan Airlines designates a small number of it's 747 Short Range aircraft 747-146BSR/SUD!!




I love it when a plan comes together
 
Braniff747
Topic Author
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 10:10 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Wed May 16, 2001 10:49 am

Thank you for your excellent and helpful response.  Smile
 
Guest

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Thu May 17, 2001 6:44 am

I heard that another reason why airlines added the windows was also to convince mainly the more frequent passangers that they were flying on a newer -200, as the 3 window setup resembled an early 747, which may not impress some passangers.

-Tom
 
skwpilot
Posts: 56
Joined: Tue Feb 27, 2001 2:32 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Thu May 17, 2001 3:03 pm

Hi guys!

From what I've been able to surmise from my studies, the 100 series 74's had a series of black lines (static electricity conductors between the forward spar and the hot leading edge on the top of the wing. These panels were composite requiring static dischargers. On the 200's, these don't show as I suspect some other method was developed.

Happy Flying!

Skwpilot
 
N312RC
Posts: 2584
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 10:58 am

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Fri May 18, 2001 7:42 am

TWA had the extra windows plugged for fleet commonality on their 747's.
N/A
 
Braniff747
Topic Author
Posts: 106
Joined: Mon Apr 30, 2001 10:10 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Fri May 18, 2001 9:10 am

So that's why you only see 3 windows on the TWA800 plane before the accident:


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Photo © Propfreak



But more than 3 in the NTSB wreckage recreation photos? The plugs fell out from the force of explosion/impact?
 
speedbird001
Posts: 28
Joined: Thu May 04, 2000 5:12 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Fri May 18, 2001 4:57 pm

Does anyone have any photos of the lounge/bar area when fitted out to a 747?
Thanks
 
L-188
Posts: 29874
Joined: Wed Jul 07, 1999 11:27 am

Braniff 747

Fri May 18, 2001 9:58 pm

Somebody asked that question a looonnnng while back.

Somebody noticed that the fuselage section from the left side had only three windows and the right side had 7 windows.

That was how the NTSB was able to determine which side of the aircraft hit the water. The force of the impace drove four of the blanks out of the fuselage on the impact side.

I am pretty sure I remember which side hit first and the number of blown windows but correct me if I screwed up. I am working off of memory here.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
N312RC
Posts: 2584
Joined: Mon Aug 28, 2000 10:58 am

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Sat May 19, 2001 4:10 am

For whoever asked for pics of the upperdeck in lounge form:

"747 Braniff Place: The Most Exclusive Address In The Sky."


TWA Lounge

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Photo © Mike Genovese



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Photo © Mike Genovese

N/A
 
747Specialist
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Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 9:12 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Sun May 20, 2001 7:55 pm

There's always a misunderstanding about the difference between a 741 and a 742. It's not the numbers of windows on the upper deck.
All passenger's 747s from line nr #1 to line nr#148 were buildt with 3 window holes on the upper-deck. This include 100 and 200 series. Line #149 (First QANTAS 747-238B VH-EBA) was the first 747 buildt with 8 to 10 window holes, and that became standard for all classic 747s buildt just after it, again including -100 and 200 series. Now some early 747 operators had to made a choice for fleet commonalty: Either they had to convert their early 747s to 8/10 windows or had their new delivered 747s with 3 windows and blanks to cover the remaining holes on the upper deck.
The only 3 operators that had 747s delivered (after #149) with 3 windows (+ 5 blanks) were American, PanAm and TWA. On the other hand, British Airways, KLM, Sabena, Northwest, Air Canada, Swissair, United and Air India had all their early 747s retroffited with the 8/10 windows modification.
Saudia is the only operator that received it's whole bunch of 747-100s with standard 8/10 windows because they were buildt after the change. Air France and JAL were 2 operators that operated for many years a mix of orginal-3 windows and newer 8/10 windows 747-100s.
In this post, I speak of course only of early original first hand 747s operators.

Hope that helps.









 
atlasair
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:43 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Thu May 24, 2001 3:44 am

Can anyone tell me what -200 has only three windows and who operates it ?

AtlasAir
 
atlasair
Posts: 99
Joined: Sat Jun 05, 1999 11:43 pm

RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Thu May 24, 2001 9:59 am

How can you tell the difference between the 747-100SUD and the 747-300 ? Are there any -200SUD
AtlasAir
 
747Specialist
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RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Thu May 24, 2001 9:32 pm

Atlas Air,

The only 747-200s remaining with 3 original windows must be some of ex-JAL 747-246s. These are now in service with Air Atlanta Icelandic as TF-ATB and ATF and were never converted to the 8/10 configuration.

The SUD conversion was ordered by 3 airlines: KLM (10x 747-206Bs converted), UTA (2x 747-2B3Bs converted) and JAL (2x 747-146Bs converted), making a total of 14 747-100/200S converted to SUD.

It's interesting to note the history of KLM's PH-BUH and BUI. Born as regular's 747-206Bs, they were converted to SUD, and then to Freighters SD...making them the only SUD and Freighter converted 747s.

Rgds
747Specialist
 
wilcharl
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RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Fri May 25, 2001 9:11 am

So, On TWA's aircraft ie: TWA 800, there were only 3 windows per side, but with the removial of the lounges, were alot of the upper deck "window seats" windowless?
 
n949wp
Posts: 1398
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RE: 747-100 Dome Windows

Fri May 25, 2001 10:52 am

TWA probably put three rows of premium seats on the upper deck, so three windows on each side is sufficient (though I wouldn't mind more).

Anyone know which class of service did TWA put on the upper decks? First? Business?

'949

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