Blackened
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Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Aug 27, 2001 8:04 am

Does anybody know what kind of manoevers there have been with big airliners maybe during test flights or airshows? I have heard somewhere that a 747 did a looping once and that another 747 broke the sound barrier in a very fast descent.
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ryu2
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Aug 27, 2001 8:09 am

The 707 (or its predecessor) was barrel rolled during an early demonstration flight.
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Aug 27, 2001 2:08 pm

It was a DC8 that broke the sound barrier in a dive.

Besides, doing aerobatics in an airliner is like using an SUV for stunt racing...need I say more?
 
Twotterwrench
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Aug 27, 2001 2:35 pm

This topic has been EXTENSIVELY discussed in here before... and not all that long ago. And, yes, the 707 story is true...it was a publicity stunt.
 
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HAWK21M
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Aug 27, 2001 4:27 pm

I've heard about the B707 story.Its true.
No idea about the B747 story.
regds
HAWK.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
L-188
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Wed Aug 29, 2001 4:47 pm

I suppose that we can count Frank Tallman taking a DC-7 around the pylons at Reno in the 50's or 60's as an aerobatic manuver.

I think he got third.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
EGNV
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Thu Aug 30, 2001 7:51 am

If anyone is english, call in to a magazine shop and look through the Airbus special of Airliner World...

I think an A300 seems to be pitched up at about 60 degrees!
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:04 pm

I have a university lecturer that claims to have experienced barrel rolls in a 707. It was a night near Melbourne

I tend to have different thoughts about breking the sound barrier in a DC-8. We were taught that a 727 as the example that having cruise capabilities for planning purposes of Mach 0.84, even if this aircraft were put into a decent directly vertical, with all thrust levers firwalledn the aircrfat would still not break the sound barrier. This is due to the air resistance and drag created by such an aircraft. When i thought about it it made sense. Huge amounts of thrust are required to break the sound barrier (the use of afterburner and four turbojet engines along with that superaerodynamic shape for the Concorde).

Would this DC-8 still be in one piece after breking the sound barrier. The aircraft would be past the strucural limits of Vmo and Vne and i would suggest breking up in flight

This is just what i think and may not be correct. Im simply trying to give quite a valid idea and am not criticisizing anyone elses response to the question

Regards,
Geebar
 
musang
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 12:49 am

I would think that any jet transport could be pursuaded to transgress the sound barrier if dived steep enough.

It is said that the PSA 146 which nosedived into the ground went supersonic, and the FDR info implied that nothing came off it before impact.

Theres an autobiography by an former airline pilot from the States who for reasons I can't remember found himself being checked out on Concorde by Air France. He claims they barrel rolled it.

A barrel roll however is a one g maneouvre if properly executed and just about any aircraft could be coaxed through one in the right hands. Not mine!

Regards - Musang
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 1:45 am

Geebar you are correct in saying you may be incorrect..Musang is correct, and yes the 727 will have no problem going sonic as you describe. Even the man that holds the longest free fall a Air force Col. forget his name went sonic when he jumped from a balloon a number of years ago from near 60,000 feet or higher. Max
 
Blackened
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 7:59 am

I think a 747 breaking the sound barrier is a confirmed fact. They did that during test flights.
Bring it back, bring it back, bring it back
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 8:08 am

I THINK WE MAY HAVE TO AGREE TO DISAGREE ON THIS ONE.

I am going to investigate this at uni with my lecturers today and i will get back to you all on what i find out.

Cheers,
Geebar
 
Jetpilot500
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:25 am

All of Dassault Falcon Jets have been flight tested beyond Mach 1.

A B-747 went supersonic over the North Pacific during a high altitude upset, they did recover. I think it may have been Flying Tigers.

JetPilot500
 
RC Pilot
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:36 am

during the test flight i know they took it up to .99 mach
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 9:49 am

A Focke-Wulff fw-200 four engined airliner made a loop at an airshow in Aalborg, Denmark in 1937. DDL (Danish Airlines - later part of SAS) promptly bought two of them.
Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
Carioca Canuck
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 10:17 am

MaxPower.....

The guy in question jumped from 110,000 feet.
 
pmk
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 10:46 am

1. A 747SP during a CAT did exceed the sound barrier, however the wings were bent up at a seven degree angle. The aircraft was recertified and flew for about 5 more years. It is currently at Las Vegas, McCarran waiting to be bought.

2.The 707 and Concorde were NOT barrel rolled! A barrel is a multi G maneuver. The maneuver performed in both cases is called a schondel(sp)roll. It is a 1 G maneuver and is not damaging to an airframe if the 1G limit is not exceeded.

Peter
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 3:21 pm

Another consideration when testing these aircraft at Mach 0.99 and the like is the fact that as the airflow over the wing will have accelerated and be beyond the speed of sound bringing a shock wave and massive drag penalties into the equation. This has to do with the critical Mach number (Mcrit) for the aircraft
 
IndianGuy
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 6:29 pm

A 747SP of China Airlines went into a steep dive and went supersonic while on a scheduled flight into LAX. The aircraft stayed intact though the wings were badly bent, and part of the tail structure was damaged.
 
musang
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Pmk

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:18 am

Pmk - a chandelle is a max performance climbing turn combined with a 180 degree change of direction, speed starting at Va and reducing to just above Vs when the turn is complete. (See Kershner's Advanced Pilot's Manual, fifth edition, Iowa State University Press. Page 251)

It was included in the FAA commercial pilot checkride as a co-ordination/planning exercise.

In all my years I've never heard of a "chandelle roll", as you describe it.

Can't find a definition of Barrel Roll at this moment, but all the descriptions of the Dash 80 stunt over Seattle I ever read describe it as a barrel roll, and I'm convinced it is a 1 g maneouvre if done properly.

Regards - Musang
 
prebennorholm
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:27 am

IndianGuy wrote: ...747SP of China Airlines... supersonic... part of the tail structure was damaged.

Dear IndianGuy, you are really not exaggerating.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy Half of the tail was missing!!!

Rgds, Preben Norholm

Always keep your number of landings equal to your number of take-offs
 
cedarjet
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 5:15 pm

I have seen a TV interview with the 707 test pilot who did the roll, he described it himself as a Chandelle and said it was a 1g maneouvre.

Apparently the 744 has been taken through the sound barrier in a shallow dive. Some mild vibration was noted.

A DC8 was definitely taken through the sound barrier, in a shallow dive starting at FL410. The aircraft was later delivered to a customer.

Rumour has it the 777 was rolled during test flights.

A LH crew did a roll in a 707 during pre-delivery training. Obviously lacking the skill of the Boeing test pilot above, they did it a second time and the aircraft broke up. While most of LH's training was done in Arizona, I have a feeling this accident happened over Germany. Early 60s.
fly Saha Air 707s daily from Tehran's downtown Mehrabad to Mashhad, Kish Island and Ahwaz
 
lapa_saab340
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:18 am

Cedarjet
The maneuver called 'chandelle' was correctly described by Musang. Perhaps Boeing's test pilot "Tex" Johnston was also performing chandelles the day he rolled the 707 prototype, or perhaps he was referring to another flight. But the maneuver in question was a 1G roll, performed over some stadium (I forgot which now  Smile).
 
Twotterwrench
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:49 am

a Barrell roll properly performed is a 1g manuever. I have done them in 150 aerobats for christs sake. it's slow, but it gets there... tex most certainly did perform a very well executed barrell roll.
 
pmk
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 4:47 am

Not to start an argument but Johnson said it was a Chandelle, even had to explain to management what he did. Bob Hoover called the same maneuver a Chandelle. Do we need to call General Yeager for a ruling?

Peter
 
doug_or
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 5:34 pm

i think we may. I have perfoemed many a chandelle, as par the instructions of my instructors and my schools specifications. Max bank angle in this manuever is 30 degrees.
When in doubt, one B pump off
 
Guest

B707 Rolls

Sun Sep 09, 2001 4:45 am

I haven't heard that LH roll-crash story before, but a Braniff B707-200 (N7071) did crash during test flights in October 1959 - not as a result of barrel rolling, but an over-extended Dutch roll that led to 3 of the engines being ripped off and control being partially lost .. the aircraft crashlanded with the loss of 4 of the 8 crew aboard.

It has been alleged that Royal Australian Air Force pilots were attempting to perform the same roll that Tex Johnston did when they stalled and crashed a B707 (A20-103) into the sea off Melbourne in October 1991, with the loss of all 5 crew aboard.
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Sun Sep 09, 2001 5:22 am

The maneuver "Tex" Johnson performed was, without a doubt, a barrel roll. In a barrel roll, the aircraft rolls around it's longitudinal axis as if it were transcribing an arc around the outside of a barrel. It was not a chandelle, which was described correctly by Musang.

Any airplane is capable of performing a barrel roll and as dramatic as it may look by the uniformed, done correctly by an experienced pilot, it is a 1g maneuver that places very little stress on the aircraft. Bob Hoover performs this maneuver with a glass of water on the dash for demostration purposes and doesn't spill a drop!

What was impressive about Johnson's barrel roll was the altitude and occassion in which it was performed. Even though Tex was severely reprimanded by his superiors afterward, there's no doubt in anyones mind that this also sold the aircraft to the foreign operators who witnessed it that day.
 
EDR 374
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Tue Sep 11, 2001 7:58 pm

Is it possible that a 747 did a looping? I don't think so.
 
Staffan
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:12 pm

I've heard of a 747 in a flat spin, the tail suffered heavy damage, anyone else heard of this?

Staffan
 
lehpron
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Tue Sep 11, 2001 8:29 pm

If a 747 can break the sound barrier, was it the point of the SC?
The meaning of life is curiosity; we were put on this planet to explore opportunities.
 
musang
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Chandelle

Thu Sep 13, 2001 3:47 am

The famous photo taken from the Dash-80 cabin during the "maneouvre" by an engineer clearly shows that the aircraft is inverted.

By definition a chandelle doesn't go beyond 30 degrees of bank.

Maybe shortly after the event, realising he'd gone a little too far, Johnson started describing it as a chandelle to deflect some of the inevitable flak. Or perhaps the definition of the maneouvre has been changed.

But I'm conjecturising!

Regards - Musang
 
Guest

RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Sun Sep 16, 2001 9:49 pm

A DC-9-21 attempted a barrel-roll on a ferry-flight once, but the pilots did a lousy job, and the contents of the lav's was splattered all over the walls... The pilots had a hard time explaining what happened, so the company had the CVR and FDR checked. This indicated a 360 degree roll and G-forces varying between -0.5 and +2..

Pilots were fired...

 
FBU 4EVER!
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Mon Sep 17, 2001 3:20 am

The DC-9 incident referred to,did in fact take place.However,it wasn't discovered before the QAR (Quick Access Recorder) was examined!
The Captain was on his very last flight before retirement,coming from STO to CPH,so couldn't be fired,the co-pilot was grounded for some short time and then returned to service.
It happened close to SVD VOR in SW Sweden.
As for the Dash 80 barrel roll,it was performed over Lake Washington on National Boat Race day,an annual Seattle event,and an amateur film shows the plane to be doing a barrel roll,definitely not a chandelle!Also,as mentioned,there is the famous shot from the cabin of the plane being upside down.
Properly flown,the barrel roll will feel just like any other unaccellerated flight.British master pilot Neill Williams described in one of his books how he barrell rolled a Canberra jet bomber without his navigator realizing it.
"Luck and superstition wins all the time"!
 
Mac
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RE: Aerobatics With Airliners?

Tue Sep 18, 2001 5:00 am



It was a long time ago, but if my memory serves me correctly, the Boing prototype was on a promotional/public relations/demonstration flight over lake Washington in the state of Washington when Tex Johnston rolled the aircraft above a boat regatta taking place.

Also, I believe...and correct me if I am wrong, a Boeing 727 was inadvertantly placed in a dive which reached the speed of sound. For some reason, TWA comes to mind. I believe there was a fair amount of damage done to various parts of the aircraft. The pilots were able to conclude the dive by extending the landing gear.
The aircraft was landed safely.

Mac

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