Guest

What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 7:50 am

Hello,

What would cause such a horrific landing as in the picture below? It appears the pilot doesn't have control of the jumbo. Is it because the pilot came in too fast, or could there have been a malfuntion with the planes breaks?


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Photo © Samuel lo



Thanks guys!
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 8:01 am

Nothing "worng" actually, just another normal crosswind landing at Kai-Tak, maybe with a "better than most" pilot.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Maybe he aimed too far to the right during the IGS 47 degree turn (possibily to compensate crosswind from the west? Or maybe from the east over the mountain as he's crubing left) and didn't kick(or not enough) the rudder to straighten out before touching down. But you must admit, Kai Tak is a damn fine airport to see jumbos "fly". I'll miss that place for a long time...  Crying

Tony,
B767-400er

 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 10:15 am

Thatis a pretty ugly landing.....from the tire tracks it looked like it started out just fine. What happened next is anyones guess.

He/she's pretty close to striking #4 engine.

I wouldnt be suprised if this guy went back to the sim after that episode.

You just don't get on the mike and make the normal announcment "thank you for flying X airline". You're gonna have a lot of passengers who shit their pants.

JET

 
speedbird092
Posts: 164
Joined: Thu Apr 06, 2000 9:04 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 10:33 am

Just crabbing during a crosswind landing
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 1:26 pm

What is "crabbing"?

Cheers...
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 1:56 pm

It's turning the nose of the aircraft into the wind on landing, or what you are seeing above. The trick is to be keep the center of the wheelbase aligned with the centerline as you are flying the final.

If you were too keep the nose aligned with the centerline while landing in a crosswind you'd get blown off to the side of the runway.

For example, say your landing on Rwy 13(130 degree heading) in Kai Tak(above) and you you have a strong crosswing coming in at 95 degrees. You would have to fly the approach on something like 115 degrees to compansate for the crosswind and keep the wheels on the centerline.

The stronger the corswind, the more crab angle there will be. I may be wrong since I gathered all this from flying flight-sims.
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 2:13 pm

It seems like a lot of bad landings took place at this airport, Kai Tak. The plane below also had a bad landing. Was this airport closed because of dangerous landings to aircraft?


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Photo © Daryl Chapman

 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sun Sep 02, 2001 4:06 pm

Crabbing is the aircraft "weathervaning" into the wind. It is more or less a vector type thing. The stronger the crosswind, and the slower the airplane's speed through the air, the more of an angle the airplane is going to have into the wind to keep a ground track aligned with the runway.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Panther
Posts: 200
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 3:17 pm

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Mon Sep 03, 2001 2:05 pm

Crabbing is easy, the trick is to finally kick the crab out and straighten out the nose while putting just enough wing down into the wind to stay on centerline.
I usually kick out of the crab around 80-100', however I fly with a lot of captains who can do it in the flare. It all comes with experience.


happy landings
 
fritzi
Posts: 2598
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 2:34 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:29 am

There is nothing wrong with this landing at all. Especially not at Kai Tak. This is how aircrafts land in crosswinds! The Kai Tak APR and landing is something I really miss.

Regars,
Fritzi
 
JG
Posts: 165
Joined: Tue Jun 07, 2005 1:53 am

RE: Fritzi

Tue Sep 04, 2001 3:44 am

Oh my fellow forum friend,

I hope you are being humorous with your reply because there is everything wrong with this landing... this aircraft came within milli- or even nano-seconds from major aircraft damage. Very poor execution of cross wind landing techniques. The flightcrew involved, I am certain, know this.

Entertaining to view all of that airport's close calls. But, I would be cleaning (most likely changing) my shorts if I should ever be this unfortunate.

JG
 
meister808
Posts: 924
Joined: Sat Jan 01, 2000 11:45 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:15 am

Yeah.. just b/c this is a difficult airport to land at does not mean that this is normal.. the pilot should hvae had plenty of time to fix his crab.. a gust probably caught the pilot by surprise.

-Meister
Twin Cessna 812 Victor, Minneapolis Center, we observe your operation in the immediate vicinity of extreme precipitation
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 8:48 am

If anyone thought that NCA photo (the second one in this thread) was something, you ought to look at the next one taken, after the engine struck the ground and caught fire...


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Photo © Daryl Chapman

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 10:54 am

Oh my goodness!! Why is that plane above taking off with engine damage and fire??
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6039
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 12:14 pm

Better to go around with one engine damaged and three working then running out of runway and putting it in the harbour, or veer off the runway into the traffic coming on the parallel taxiway. BTW, the seperation between the runway at KaiTak and the parallel taxiway was less than the ICAO recommended spacing...apparantely.

Whats's wrong with the inital picture of the crosswind landing? It's China Airlines, that's whats wrong.
 
tbar220
Posts: 6706
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 1:04 pm

Why didn't aircraft just land in the opposite direction? I know this might sound a little naive, but couldn't ATC figure out a way to have aircraft takeoff and land off the same end of the runway?
NO URLS in signature
 
AJ
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:54 pm

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 2:58 pm

Panther,
Lowering of the wing in a B747 is a dangerous pursuit due to the risk of pod scrape. Our company policy is to straighten the aircraft just prior to touchdown and allow the sheer momentum to keep the aircraft on the centreline.
The only exception to this is during an autoland, when the autopilot may drop a wing, however autolands have strict crosswind limitations.
If the aircraft is not entirely straight on touchdown the undercarriage will naturally straighten the roll.

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Photo © Craig Murray

 
n949wp
Posts: 1398
Joined: Thu Feb 03, 2000 3:45 pm

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Tue Sep 04, 2001 6:14 pm

More crazy landings at Kai Tak........ Wow!

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Photo © Alan Tsui



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Daryl Chapman



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Daryl Chapman



'949
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 12:18 am

These pictures are amazing. So many people say they miss this airport, but it's obvious to me why it is now closed.

Thanks guys, I appreciate all of the knowledge here! Big thumbs up
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 11:07 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:05 am

I think your obvious reason for closing Kai Tak is wrong. It's not because if it's IGS 13 approach, or it's safety (in fact, I can only recall 2 major incidents, Lufthansa 747 cargo, Air China 744, both didn't result in deaths, also, the Luf 747 was fished out, and is still with Luf cargo). The major reason for Chep Lap Kok was that Kai Tak is located in the middle of the Kolnoon, pointing out into a bay, and has no expasion capabilities. My Father worked at Kai Tak before we moved to Canada, and I've been in the airport only a couple times, but memories are still so vivid...

Tony,
B767-400er
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 1:30 am

Thank you, B767-400er, for clearing that up. I figured the aiport was closed for saftey reasons, but that's not the case. But those turns and landings were indeed intense and must have been an utter thrill for the passengers.
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 10:05 am

Probably the pilot stroke the engine on the Rwy because of the heavy cross wind blowing from the left of the 744, you can clearly see the nose of the aircraft not allined w/ the Rwy, the pilot just didn't kick enought on the right rudder end he also didn't used the cloche correctly, in fact because of the heavy xwind he was supposed to give a lot of left aleiron in order to keep the aircraft wings parallel to the Rwy he apparently didn't do it and the wind brought up the left wing making one of the right engine strike.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Wed Sep 05, 2001 11:49 am

767-400er,

I think you mean the China Airlines 744, and not the Air China 744. Completely different airlines. Air China has actually a fairly good safety record compared to China Airlines.....than again, what airline doesn't!!
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 4:50 am

Cx flyboy:

Man, I keep mixing them together, esp with the China Eastern Airlines and stuff. Thanks for settingthat straight.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Tony,
B767-400er
 
jwenting
Posts: 9973
Joined: Mon Apr 23, 2001 10:12 pm

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 5:10 am

Major reason for Kai Tak closing is economics. It was indeed getting too small, but at least as important is that it is sitting on some very expensive real estate. I think that the sale of the ground it is sitting on would have paid for construction of the new airport with money to spare?

And don't call them bad landings. Any landing you walk away from is a good one  Wink/being sarcastic Call them below average instead  Innocent
I wish I were flying
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Thu Sep 06, 2001 6:10 am

Good point, Jwenting! The main thing is no one got injured in the landings above. I'll just called them "crazy landings".  Big thumbs up
 
wingscrubber
Posts: 806
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 2:48 am

The classic approach into kai tak, bordered by mountains in a tall valley, meant that you had to turn right 45 degrees onto final marked by a giant red and white checkerboard before flaring and dealing with crosswinds, it was indeed a hazardous airport to land at, pilots used to be specially trained to land there.
Kai tak was closed with the opening of the new hong kong airport, built on reclaimed land out in the sea, I don't know much about the new one or even what it's called, but I do know that it was almost certainly built to replace kai tak due to it's hazardous approach and small size.

Peet
Resident TechOps Troll
 
wingscrubber
Posts: 806
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NOTARs And Fast Liners

Sat Sep 08, 2001 3:04 am

Two things-

1. How do NOTAR choppers work? As far as I know, to eliminate the problem of gearing up a tail rotor to eliminate torque, the engine exhuast is chanelled sideways out of the tailboom instead, which has the same effect. Is that right? Do NOTARs still have left/right control with foot pedals? How do the foot pedals work if there's no tail rotor blade angle to change?

2. How fast do airliners go these days? I've always assumed that the typical liner cruises at 30,000ft+ at a speed around 500-600mph on about half throttle.
How fast could a big girl like that go flat out, straight and level? On flight sim 95 I used to fly on...if I whizzed around flat out in a 737 soon enough I'd get a 'overspeed' warning, can that happen for real? And finally, around what speed do the big birds rotate nowadays? I'm guessing around 200mph for a heavily laden jumbo...

Feel free to correct me where I'm wrong.

Peet
Resident TechOps Troll
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 3:43 am

For a DC-10, cruise is set on Mach .82 at approx 33,000 feet, this gives an indicated airspeed of 310 knots and a true airspeed of around 550 miles per hour. The engines are turning at about 60-70% N1. If you do bump the throttles up and let it accelerate, you will start getting the overspeed warning and mach buffets.

A DC-10-30, at 580,000 pounds, has a rotation speed of around 160-170 knots, depending on flaps settings, outside temperature, thrust setting, and how many twinkies the lead F/A ate before the flight.

I dont have the exact figures, but these are very close.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 3:44 am

***That should read "true airspeed of around 550 knots"***
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 3:59 am

The runway at this Kai Tak was really short. Looking at that Malaysia jumbo above striking it's engine, it is ALMOST OUT OF RUNWAY! Thank God the pilot was able to slow down the jumbo. I'm surprised more aircrafts didn't run off the runway and into the water. I can see it took skill to land there and many pilots still had trouble. But I am still thankful everyone was safe. That's the key.

Thank you guys for the great replies. I appreciate the fact that I can post questions here and not be made to feel stupid.

I love the knowledge on this forum.

Cheers..
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 11:07 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 5:01 am

Climbout:

Kai Tak's runway is actually pretty long, average for major int'l airports, huge for airports it's size...

Take-Run Available 9490ft/2892.5m
Take-off Distance Available 9950ft/3033.0m
Accelerate stop distance available 11130ft/3392.5m
Landing Distance Available 10435ft/3180.5m

Source: Charts dated '94

Tony,
B767-400er
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 9:33 am

Thank you, B767-400er.

I guess that's just the way it appears in the picture.

Regarless of how long the runway is, doesn't it seem like this jumbo (I'm referring to Malaysia with the wing strike), has used up lots of runway? He didn't seem to have much left, did he?
 
Guest

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 9:43 am

B767-400er-
If it had no expansion capabilities, why didn't they reclaim the land?
B777-200ER
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 11:07 am

RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 1:40 pm

I'm not sure if I understand your question correctly, but I'll try and see if I hit it somewhere near...

1.) If you're trying to say why they didn't reclaim land and build additional runways, and expand the airport. That's because of the geological location of the airport itself. When you look at where Kai Tak is on a map, you'll see that's it's surrounded by hills on the north side, east side, and hills on the HK island in the south direction. Where the IGS 13 beam is, is the gap bearing a westerly direction.

However, due to the Meteological(sp?) conditions, 80+% of the time, winds favour landing and departing on runway 13. However, If we look at building another runway, say, parallel but to the west of rwy 13, hills on the HK island will block the departing and arriving traffic, and if they are using rwy 13's departure path, then the second rwy hasn't solved anything.

If the second rwy isn't parallel to rwy 13, it will take up a whole lot of space, and we all know what the enviromentists will say...

Therefore, there wasn't many choices, but to build a brand new airport, somewhere that they can plan expandion, and is not too near the main parts of the city. And I think Chep Lap Kok island is a good choice. 1, it's close, but not too close to anything, or everything. 2, it's kinda sheltered from the ocean, so even under heavy storm, atleast final approach will be kinda stable.


2.)If you mean by why they aren't using it for somthing else now, there are a couple reasons. First, oil and fuel used when the airport was in operation was left behind, leaving the land toxic, and unless someone wants the land very badly and is willing to pay to clean it up, it'll stay like that for a while.

Second, HK's current economy looks more like a piece of burnt toast, than anything. Low-cost housing is in need. But land Kai Tak is on, is prime, high price-range realestate, so unless it's the HK government that's building the houses there, no thanks.

So therefore, if nobody has something to do with it, just leave it the way it is.

Please feel free to correct any facts that I'm wrong, and most of this post is my personal opinion, so, if you think I'm wrong, feel free to say your opinion.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Tony,
B767-400er
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
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RE: What Went Wrong With This Landing?

Sat Sep 08, 2001 1:42 pm

BTW, that was the longest post that ever got through the A.net server, I used to only be able to post <2 paragraphs. I guess my ISP fixed something, or Johan has made A.net better, which IMHO, best site on the web!  Big thumbs up

Tony,
B767-400er

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