salim
Posts: 301
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INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Oct 28, 2001 3:22 pm

hi,
Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Oct 28, 2001 4:06 pm

Just about every commercial aircraft has some form of indepedent position determining - IRS, INS, ADIRU,
 
EssentialPowr
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:23 pm

Most 727s don't...if it does, it's probably a retrofit/upgrade.
 
airplay
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:29 pm

The term "Commercial Aircraft" is a pretty broad paint-brush. Just about every commercial aircraft does NOT have an FMS or FMC and for that matter an INS system.

Many modern airliners however do have this sort of thing. Alot of it depends on what the role of the airliner is. Why spend money on IRS if you're involved in domestic service restricted to airways??

 
EssentialPowr
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Oct 29, 2001 12:56 pm

Just about every new turbine powered a/c being delivered today from a King Air 90 to a GVSP to an ERJ to the 747 400 has an FMS/GPS or FMS/INS, and has had for many years.

For the dispatch operations of a major airline, the effect is huge. The a/c is smarter, so dispatch ops are simplified due to point to point capability. In some cases, a greater variety of approaches is available, which increases access to airports that have less than stellar radar coverage, either as an alternate or primary airport. Accurate fuel burn/step climb/enroute wind data enables "What if" type of planning, which pays directly to revenue enhancement. Typically the graphics driven by the FMC make the a/c simpler to fly, so human factors issues are large...

I don't think one could find an airline that didn't spec an FMS of some kind on an airliner...

Really, it's just an FMS that enabled the F/A 18 to become what it is...but I digress.

Did the PC have an effect on the business environment?
 
cdfmxtech
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Oct 29, 2001 1:01 pm

The term "Commercial Aircraft" is a pretty broad paint-brush.
------------------------
YOU ARE CORRECT. I promise I'll never, ever, ever, ever do it again...
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Oct 29, 2001 1:02 pm

I forgot about maintenance functions...those are rather large as well.
 
airplay
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Oct 30, 2001 9:26 am

EssentialPowr

I think you're mistaking other aircraft systems with an FMS in the case of the F/A 18 or the maintenance function you speak of.

Flight computers make unstable aircraft like the F/A 18 fly. CAMS systems provide integrated maintenance systems that can be merely displayed on an FMS.

And you're right...many new aircraft are spec'd with an FMS. But certainly not ALL commercial airliners. I know of many 737/727/DC-9 aircraft which are still quite abundant (and the MAJORITY) of Kingairs and SAAB 340s and EMB 120s and Dash 8s that do NOT have an FMS installed.

Of course there are exceptions, but remember what the original post said:

"Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks"

The answer is no.







 
EssentialPowr
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:38 pm

The older 737s, the 727s, DC9s and EMB120s may account for maybe 20% of the current airliner fleet in the US, and are being parked on a daily basis...

With regard to the F18, a computer is a computer whether one calls it an FMS or an APG xx...(yeah, yeah, an integrated radar). The F/A 18 has "Flip of the switch" mission capability b/c of its FMS that integrates the air to air functions of the radar with ground map mode, and many other functions. Active flight control or dynamic instability is only a small piece of the pie.

What was stated was that just about every commercial a/c does NOT have an FMS. I disagree with that statement, and went on to clarify it by stating that it's difficult to find an new 121 a/c today w/o one, and the reasons why they are desireable.

Your statement questioned their benefit for domestic use on the airways; if your point was valid, dropping the FMS out of commercial a/c would make them cheaper - and a lot less profitable for the reasons I mentioned. Every hear of an airline ordering a new a/c w/o FMS?

Why is that?
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:46 pm

"Mistaking other a/c systems with an FMS in the case of the F18 or the maintenance function you speak of"

Ever heard of the Maintenance Page on the FMS???...The list of airliners that have it is...fairly significant!

 
Guest

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Oct 30, 2001 1:54 pm

To go along with what "Essential" said, the FMS is one of the few pieces of equipment on an airplane that literally pays for itself many times over. The fuel savings accrued from direct routings is significant and amounts to a lot of $$$. From a situational awareness point of view they are about as good as it gets - PROVIDED the crew is proberly trained - watching your progress on a map displayed on one of the MFDs along with the other traffic and weather sure can make life easier. Additionally the flexibility and workload reduction that they provide when it comes to instrument approaches is another reason that they are pretty much standard equipment in all new turbine-powered aircraft, not just airliners.
 
airplay
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Wed Oct 31, 2001 11:58 am

Yes I agree that an FMS is useful. I just disagree that "ALL" commercial aircraft have one.

As far as the "maintenance" page you speak of, depending on the FMS this can represent 2 different things:

1) FMS maintenance pages that allow for FMS configuration programming and maintenance to the FMS

2) FMS CDU is used by the CAIMS system to display maintenance information. The FMS is just acting as a display. FMSs are convenient that way. They can be used to display TAWS terrain, Video, AFIS information (and control) etc. If you don't have an FMS you can use other displays.

 
EssentialPowr
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:05 pm

No statement made in this entire thread claimed ALL commercial a/c had them. PLs read what was written.
 
airplay
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:12 pm

EssentialPwr......

I didn't say that. It's the original question. You need to read the whole post before you comment.

It says:

"Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks"

The answer again in case you missed it was "no".

 
EssentialPowr
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:21 pm

"I just disagree that "ALL" commercial a/c have them"
You didn't say that? 3 comments above this...

I guess I misread it. Hhmmm.

Nope.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Nov 04, 2001 2:36 pm

EssentialPwr,

For some reason you've chosen me as a target for some sort of misplaced anger.

You've also chosen to do it a typically childish way. You extract snippets of statements and present them out of context.

For instance, I could present your statement:

"I don't think one could find an airline that didn't spec an FMS of some kind on an airliner"

Heck..I know of many airlines that ordered lots of DC-3s
with no FMS/FMC/INS....but if I was to present this as an arguement it would be silly. Don't you agree?

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sun Nov 04, 2001 3:02 pm

You write poorly.

Was an FMS available when that DC3 was built? Does anyone think it was? Did you read Jetguy's statement?

You can pick any snippet you want, and I'll defend it.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Nov 05, 2001 2:08 am

How about this one:

"I guess I misread it. Hhmmm."

Yes. When I presented the DC-3 arguement I immediately stated that it was "silly". But true to form, you took one statement out of context and presented it as a new arguement. Just like I just did!

 Smile




 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Mon Nov 05, 2001 2:44 am

Uhhh...

What's quoted above is called sarcasm.

No one ever claimed ALL commercial a/c have an FMS, other than you, by your statement that defends it. Where did that come from?

Apparently I'm taking all of your statements out of context. Does that reflect on you as a writer?

Keep it comin!!!
 
modesto2
Posts: 2671
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Nov 06, 2001 5:14 pm

I flew aboard an ex-QQ MD-80 series aircraft with American and the pilot said the aircraft had nothing more sophisticated than navigation radios. He explained that since the plane's service is strictly limited to domestic flights (west coast primarily), there really wasn't a need for an INS/IRS/GPS system.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Nov 13, 2001 11:27 am

From Airplay:
"Just about every commercial aircraft does NOT have an FMS or FMC, and for that matter an INS system."

The following a/c come standard with an FMS/FMC (or INS) and have for years! Do they count?

Lear 31-45-55-60 (probably the 24-25 too)
Hawker series
Gulfstream series
Challenger series
Falcon series
CJ1/2
Citation series
King Air 90-200-300-350 (can be deleted)
Do328
ERJ
CRJ
Do328Jet
BAE146/Avro
717
737-300/400/500/600/700/800/900
A300/310/319/320/321/330/340
757
767 - all
747 - all
777
MD-11/87/88/90
DC-10
L1011
F70/100

The above list is, what, 75% of the turbine powered commercial fleet operating today under Part 91/135/121?

Most commercial a/c DO have and FMS/FMC or INS...

Cheers
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Nov 13, 2001 1:14 pm

Thats funny,

I've been involved in certification of FMSs in the following out of your list in aircraft that were delivered without an FMS or FMC:

Lear 31 (and Lear 35)
Lear 24 (It just got a GPS because he didn't need an FMS)
BAE HS125-700
BAE HS125-800A
GI
GII
CL600-2A12
CL600-2B16(3A)
Falcon 50
Falcon 900
Cessna 500 (GPS only because they didn't need an FMS)
Cessna 550
Cessna 560
King Air 200 (very late serial number had a UNS 1C installed by STC...not factory)
SEVERAL other kingairs (GPS only because they DEFINITELY don't need an FMS)
737-200 (Just a GPS because the autopilot couldn't handle the roll steering from an FMS)
727-100 (Not on your list but got dual FMSs)
L1011

This doesn't have to be complicated. The original question was:

"hi,
Does every airliner must have a navigation system like INS FMC, or FMS?
thanks"


And the first response was:

"Just about every commercial aircraft has some form of indepedent position determining - IRS, INS, ADIRU,"

The simple answer is to the first question is "No not every airliner has INS FMC or FMS.

The simple "correction" to the first response is "No. There are very very many commercial aircraft with no FMS FMC or INS"

Here are some commerical aircraft flying today that are not fitted with or typically operate without this equipment:

Cessna Caravan
Cessna 185
Cessna 206
Cessna 207
Cessna 401
Cessna 402
Cessna 421
Cessna 404
Cessna 414
Cessna 310
Cessna Conquest
Cessna Titan
Piper Cherokee 6
Piper Navajo
Piper Aztec
Piper Super Cub
Piper Cheyenne
Beech 18
Beech Queen Air
Beech 99
Beech 100
Beech 90 (All variants)
Beech 200
Beech 1900
Dash 7
Dash 8-100
Twin Otter
Otter
Beaver
Turbo Beaver
Norseman
Jetstream 31
Jetstream 41
Pilatus PC-12
Cessna 500
Bell 206
Bell 204
Bell 205
CL600-1A11
Douglas DC-3
Douglas DC-4
Douglas DC-6
Curtiss C-46
YS-11
Argosy
HS-748
Convair 240/340/440/560/580
Falcon 10
Falcon 20
CL-215
737-100/200
727-100/200
SAAB 340 (Came with an optional UNS 1M later on but not many have it)
MBB series helicopters
F27
F28
EMB 110
EMB 120
Casa 212
Shorts 330
Shorts 340
BN Islander
BN Trilander

I left out many like the 172 that arguably are mostly owned privately or spend their "commercial" life in flying schools.

Here's some interesting facts: There were about as many Navajos produced as there are 737s (all variants). There are more Cessna 402s in the world than there are 767s. (All variants) There are roughly 4 times the amount of Bell 206's in the world than Airbus A320s.


Not all "commercial" aircraft are modern airliners and "most" of the "commercial" aircraft in the world are not fitted with INS, FMC or FMS.

I could agree that most "modern" airliners and business jets are fitted with an FMC or FMS? How's that?
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Nov 13, 2001 3:30 pm

So some operators decided not to spec an FMS, and that means that MOST commercial A/C don't have an FMS? No way.

That's a real contemporary list of a/c ya got there.

All the piston equpiment - I heard FLexjet is buying 300 Cherokee 6s, slightly used of course. Seems everyone at Van Nuys and Dupage think about a '64 model Aztec is the only way to go cross country. Some outfit flying Trilanders in Puerto Rico doesn't exactly account for a large percentage of commercial aviation.

HHmmm... I haven't see a Shorts in operation in the US in a while...I'm sure they're 2 or 3 though. Same w/ the EMB110 and the CASA. Didn't Airtran start up with YS11s? Maybe that was JetBlue...no, no...they're flying DC3s and C46s.

And don't tell anyone, but I got a GREAT price on 20
HS-748s, and am planning on getting them certified with HUDs so I can run Horizon out of business.

Get real - most commercial a/c DO have an FMS. But I guess Jetguy is blowin smoke too...

Back on Thurs.
 
EssentialPowr
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Tue Nov 13, 2001 3:37 pm

Yeah I see it...Airplay's first response:

"The term "commercial aircraft" is a pretty broad paintbrush. Just about every commercial aircraft does NOT have an FMS or FMC and for that matter an INS system."

But wait, says I. Most DO!!

Then, he questions why they're necessary in a domestic airline application...

That's strike 2; so I had to respond.

 
airplay
Posts: 3369
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Wed Nov 14, 2001 3:51 am

EssentialPwr,

Do yourself a favor and check out the pictures of aircraft on Airliners.net.

Then maybe you'll realize that the world doesn't stop at the US border. There are several of the aircraft types you questioned in commercial operation in the world.

Where I live there are several EMB110s, HS-748s, Navajos, KingAirs and even a couple of C-46's and DC-3s that operate commercially. Throw in several 737-200s and F-28s. Round that off with lots and lots of piston Cessnas. Travelaires, Barons, Metros.....SAAB 340s (without FMS/FMS), Caravans etc.

Don't underestimate the numbers of these aircraft. They represent a significant portion of the world commerical fleet.

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Fri Nov 16, 2001 2:42 pm

Good point...
"Several Emb110s, HS 748s and even a couple of C-46s where you live" certainly sounds representative of the commercial a/c fleet as commonly referred to by most people on this forum.

(Not quite)

There has always been quite a bit of discussion on this forum on the commercial aircraft fleets of countries like Ethopia, Niger, Cuba, and Trinidad.

(Not quite)

Look at it this way...How much discussion on this forum is related to the a/c you list above? 5% at most?

Most Commercial a/c DO have a GPS or FMS of some kind
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:25 am

That's funny....I don't remember the question asking about GPS.....

Representative of the forum? That's not the issue. The question didn't ask

"do most of the aircraft discussed on this forum have FMSs??"

Do me a favour. For the US, check out how many "commercial" aircraft there are, then let me know what the ratio is between aircraft like 757/767/777/747/A310/A320/A330/A340/MD Series and the rest of the little insignificant aircraft I mentioned. I think you'll be surprised that not every commercial pilot flies the big new iron.....

My comment about the term "commerical" aviation was never meant to be some sort of huge point. It was a clarification. And I stand my it unless you otherwise present proof against it.

 
EssentialPowr
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Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:37 am

And again,

There's not a lot of chat on the forum concerning the older a/c you mention, or the companies that fly them...Sorry, but that's how it is.

Most commercial a/c do have a GPS or INS, and FMS.

If you want to discuss the current impact of the YS11 on commercial aviation in Botswana, then start that thread...
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:44 am

EssentialPwr:

Never mind...just check out this page:

http://www.aia-aerospace.org/stats/facts_figures/ff_99_00/Ff99p095.pdf

Turbojets in commercial service in the US: About 5700
Turboprops in commercial service in the US: About 3500
Piston in commercial services in the US: About 30,000
Rotorcraft: About 3500

I think arguably there aren't many piston "airliners" out there any more and there are certainly not many helicopters that carry 300 people. So logically I would say the majority of commercial aviation (even in the US) consists of small aircraft that we don't normally talk about in this forum.

5% of the discussion for about 75% of the commercial fleet...shame on us!

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 11:19 am

The original question was asked about AIRLINERS, not aged piston equipment.

I don't think an AGcat in KAnsas and the 4000 beat up C152s/172s, PA 28s, etc in the flight instruction business in this country constitue Commercial Aviation by anyone on this forum....

Did you even read JEtguy's response? Why can't you accept when you're wrong?

Keep posting all of that crap...it only proves you're flailing. I love it that you think a YS11 or DC3 are today's "commercial aviation" b/c some 3rd world countries still use them to ship bananas and chickens out of a dirt strip...
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:24 pm

EssentialPwr...

Listen.....

If you want to debate this, stick to the facts. I presented a document that verified that most "commercial" aircraft in the US are NOT large airliners. Why can't you accept this fact?

If you don't consider crop dusting "commercial" aviation then you don't know much about aviation. I don't think many of them do it for free.....

Jetguy's response? Yes I did read it. At the end he said:

"Additionally the flexibility and workload reduction that they provide when it comes to instrument approaches is another reason that they are pretty much standard equipment in all new turbine-powered aircraft, not just airliners."

I don't disagree with that statement. Many NEW turbine powered aircraft probably are fitted with this sort of equipment.






 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:47 pm

Commercial aviation, on this forum and for the purposes of this discussion, mean a/c made by Emb, Canadair, Dornier, Boeing, Airbus, formerly Beech now Raytheon, Lockheed, MDC and BAC - 95% of which made from the early 1980s until the present have an FMS.

How many threads can you reference about the piston and obsolete a/c you mention? Not many.

Most commercial a/c have an FMS. OR GPS.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:00 pm

EssentialPwr....

Gee...thanks for defining what commercial aviation.

Too bad it's wrong. Just ask the FAA. And then ask some commercial pilots.

Also, thanks for defining the parameters of this discussion.

Of course the initial post establishes that. And it does say "airliners". I was simply addressing the second post and the definition of commercial aircraft.......and really.....it's no big deal!

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:05 pm

Gee, the original post ASKED ABOUT AIRLINERS.

You go define for everyone that cares that, in fact, a C172 used for flight instruction is a commercial a/c.

Great. Was that what was asked? NO!

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

VC10 PLS Read

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:07 pm

Would you mind acting as a referee on the Pressurization ACM topic?

Thanks
EssentialPowr
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:08 pm

Read my post you idiot......

I said I was commenting on the second post. The one that implied that commercial aircraft are all airliners....

 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
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RE: INS/FMS/fMC

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:08 pm

Sorry, wrong comm switch.

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