IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sat Nov 10, 2001 4:13 pm

I realise this might perhaps seem more appropriate in the Hobby forum, but i'd like to address this quetion to REAL pilots who have used FS98/2K.

Just how realistic is FS98? i must say that some parts of the scenery etc IS Realistic.

But how realisitc are the flight models of the aircraft?

I eman i have just been practising circuits (complete T/O and Ldg) with an Air India 747-400. The aircraft manages to take off and land from the barely 4000 feet runway at Merril C Meiggs airfield that too with over 40% fuel load! Surely a real aircraft cant do that!

Also an IC A300 that i fly regularly lands at about 110 knots! Surely this isnt true in the REAL FS?

SO how realistic is FS? Does anyone have any aircraft with REALISTIC Flight models? Perhaps a pilot could shed more light on this?
 
Guest

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 2:39 am

This has been address ad nauseam.

It's a game...period. Nothing more.
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 3:01 am


How realistic? Well, that depends on what you are trying to accomplish.

I can only talk about the Cessnas, since I haven't ever flown a jet in real life.

If you are talking about the actual eye-hand manipulation of the controls, and flight models, then FS has a long way to go. I think that, as far as actual hand flying goes, real airplanes are easier to fly then the simlulators, because you have actual feedback on the controls, and you can just turn your head and look, rather than have to mess around with switching views all the time. Also, the "ATC communications" in FS98 and 2K are severly lacking in realism.

But, if you are looking for a good navigation trainer, or instrument procedures trainer, then MS FS is great. The NAV radios, at least in the Cessna, behave almost exactlly as they would in real life. I have the Jepp airway manual pack, and I use those instead of the ones that MS includes (they are practically useless), and I fly airways, ILS approaches, VOR approaches, NDB approaches, according to the IAPs daily on the simulator to keep myself sharp on them. (FS2K is much better for this - many more NAVAIDS and airports) I set the visability to 1 mile and rain, and I won't let myself use the autopilot - It's great for developing a good instrument scan, and developing situational awareness. Also, it really helps you learn the charts, and how to fly the procedures (i.e., Feeder routes, course reversals, holds, procedure tracks, minimums, FAFs, MAPs, DAs, MDAs, etc...)

Jack @ AUS
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 9:53 am

If you want something pretty realistic, as far as flight and performance characteristics are concerned, check out Aerowinx Precision Simulator. It's not a game, but rather it's a real cockpit trainer for the 747-400. Every button/switch/function is duplicated, and the performance models are spot on. Many real airline pilots use it to practice themselves.

The main drawbacks is that it's over $200 USD, and also, there is no scenery apart from the horizon and runway flights -- but the intention is to simulate the aircraft, not the scenery outside anyways.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 10:57 am

.. but if you have a second PC & a netcable you'll still be able to use FS2K to run the scenery part.

BTW, I'd say that from the software that have been provided over the years, I'd say I'd be able to take control over an modern airliner (say a B777) and know how to change direction, altitude, speed etc. without too many hassles. Not that I would do it, unless it was called upon (another thing that has been discussed for ages: Would a flightsimmer be able to take over a airliner if both pilots went out.
 
delta-flyer
Posts: 2631
Joined: Mon Jul 30, 2001 9:47 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 11:30 am

My son has Fly2K and it seems quite realistic. I don't know how it compares to the MS-FS, I suspect it may be better.

The neatest thing to try is cut one engine (on a twin) during take-off!

Cheers,
Pete
"In God we trust, everyone else bring data"
 
IMissPiedmont
Posts: 6200
Joined: Wed May 23, 2001 12:58 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 12:11 pm

A couple quick points.

1) FS won't kill you when you make a mistake.
2) A real light aircraft is easier to fly because all your senses are used. I can drive a street stock dragster to a 8.3 sec 1/4 mile but I cannot do so using a keyboard. I can also fly a real Skylane in an almost passable fashion but can't find the airport on FS.
3) If you think that you could handle a real 747 etc because you can land one on FS, think again. Refer to note 1.
The day you stop learning is the day you should die.
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 11, 2001 2:51 pm

Would a flightsimmer be able to take over a airliner if both pilots went out.

I can't really answer that question, because I've only flown airliners on the flight simulator. Maybe if I altered the question a little...

Q: Would a flightsimmer be able to take over a Cessna if the pilot went out?

A: Ain't no way.
Jack @ AUS
 
concorde1518
Posts: 723
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 12:02 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:00 am

I wasn't the PIC, but I have had the controls of a 172 before in the right seat, and although I was only keeping it straight and level, no takeoffs or landings, I though I was doing a damn good job given that I've only flown a simulator for 1 year.
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:11 am

I wasn't the PIC, but I have had the controls of a 172 before in the right seat, and although I was only keeping it straight and level, no takeoffs or landings, I though I was doing a damn good job given that I've only flown a simulator for 1 year.


See, that's just the thing: "No takeoffs or landings..." Anyone can fly straight and level - with or without simulator experience. I have 160-odd hours in real airplanes, innumerable hours in Microsoft Flight simulator. I'm here to tell you: They ain't the same.

However, I will still stick to my previous statement: It makes a great IAP trainer.
Jack @ AUS
 
sccutler
Posts: 5603
Joined: Thu Jan 27, 2000 12:16 pm

One Anecdote...

Mon Nov 12, 2001 12:49 pm

A couple of years ago, a friend who is a 737 Cpt was visiting me at the house, and I showed him the computer w/ FS98 on it (he'd never seen it, being accustomed to big, grown-up simulators and honest-to-gosh airplanes).

By this time, I'd mastered basic flight in the 182 (takeoff from Meigs, fly pattern, land and stop, whoopee), and was fiddling around with a 737 taking off from DAL.

He took it off, flew around Dallas for a while, found DAL again and landed. First try. No force-feedback (and heck, it was a joystick, not a yoke). The only thing I had to tell him was (1) where the throttle control was on the joystick, and (2) how to apply the brakes.

Not sure what that all means. But it was fun to watch.
...three miles from BRONS, clear for the ILS one five approach...
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: One Anecdote...

Mon Nov 12, 2001 2:59 pm


...He took it off, flew around Dallas for a while, found DAL again and landed. First try. No force-feedback (and heck, it was a joystick, not a yoke). The only thing I had to tell him was (1) where the throttle control was on the joystick, and (2) how to apply the brakes.


That's nice. But what we were actually talking about was the opposite: Someone who has no experience but Flight Simulator trying to fly a real airplane, rather than someone who has thousands of hours in real airplanes trying to fly a glorified computer game.

Look, I've been where you guys are. I was an FS expert, and I thought that I could just jump in a real airplane, fire it up, and go. Who needs a stinkin' CFI anyway? I'm telling you that it just doesn't work like that.

Jack @ AUS
 
yka
Posts: 723
Joined: Sat Sep 15, 2001 3:00 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:01 pm

I think real pilots give themselves too much credit. In a proposed emergency situation someone with FS experience would be be far more valueble then somebody with no experience whatsoever. Knowing the basics such as flap settings, approach speeds and techniques im pretty sure someone with plenty of FS experice could land a cessna safley.
 
GE
Posts: 312
Joined: Sun Mar 26, 2000 5:01 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Mon Nov 12, 2001 5:29 pm

Yeah, but what's missing in FlightSim is the "feel" for the aircraft. That v. important and can only be achieved from real flying. As for operational procedures, I think a really good flightsimmer won't have any trouble in that.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Mon Nov 12, 2001 8:54 pm

I seriously doubt an experienced flight simmer could get a cessna airplane on the ground on a hot summer day safely. Seeing the look on their faces and such fear that you can smell it from being that low to the ground at a mushy airspeed in slow flight...its alot harder than you think. The feel of an airplane in a high drag configuration and the feel of the actual air shifting around and moving around and gusting is so much different than that game.. its nuts.

Maybe, just maybe if the person was able to get the airplane slowed down enough and it was CAT III autoland capable and they were able to get it programmed properly in time (doubtful) they might be able to get it on the ground.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
CPH-R
Posts: 6064
Joined: Thu May 03, 2001 5:19 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Mon Nov 12, 2001 9:42 pm

.. and if you're flying the heavy iron you can still (hopefully) rely on ATC to tell you what to do & where to go.

Also, with the invention of online flying (complete with DP, STARS & real-life routes) it would actually add quite a bit to the FS experience, especially in therms of communicating with the tower.

Yes, the feel of the aircraft is still missing, however, we're not talking about doing the absolutely A+ descent & approach, we're talking about getting the a/c on the ground (using the basic rules: It's a good landing if you can walk away from it & It's a great landing when the a/c can be re-used.
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:33 am

I think real pilots give themselves too much credit. ...Knowing the basics such as flap settings, approach speeds and techniques im pretty sure someone with plenty of FS experice could land a cessna safley.

YOU THINK WHAT???

Do me a favor. Go down to your local GA airport, and sign up for one of those "introductory flights." You know, the one where they give you the logbook and everything? Ask the CFI if you can try the landing. If he or she even allows you to attempt it, it should be a sufficiently humbling experience to break that "FS bubble" in your head.
Jack @ AUS
 
covert
Posts: 1507
Joined: Sun Oct 21, 2001 1:02 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 4:22 am

man, you couldn'tfind the airport in msfs? i couldn't find the CITY. if flying a real airplane is that hard, then by god...
none
 
Soku39
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 10:53 am

The Ohio Player
 
IndianGuy
Posts: 3126
Joined: Fri Jul 07, 2000 3:14 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 12:35 pm

To answer the question that if both pilots were cisabled for whatever, would i be able to fly the plane? the major problem would be that i dont know where the flap settings or engine levers etc are. In FS we just press F7 or F6 to set the flaps. but in real life?

When my sis took me into the cockpit of her A320 on a recent flight, the first thing that struck me was how different the REAL cockpit looked from the one in FS.

For eg the Reverse thrust was a SEPARATE lever altogether, unlike in FS.
 
Timborara
Posts: 23
Joined: Mon Sep 10, 2001 4:58 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Tue Nov 13, 2001 8:54 pm

It appears that no-one has mentioned the most recent addition to the FS family - FS2002. FS98 is getting on for 5 years old now - thats prehistoric in simulation terms.

The advances made in 2002 over 2000 are imense - there is proper ATC now from ground to centre and back, hell;theres even a taxiway direction thingy that tells you where to go. As with all the FS's, the flight models have been verified by cessna themselves - surly they know what the real thing feels like?

As for Indianguy-you're registered in airliners.net, yet you wouldn't know the first place to look for the thrust levers??? come now-an exageration methinks.

And western727 - i couldn't agree with you more. Been there; done that. I tried a landing on my second lesson thinking it was easy - the approach was fine, but a gust of crosswind picked us up and across the runway - scary experience. That burst my bubble for good!

Ra

 
Guest

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 4:28 am

Here's my 2 cents worth...

Let's change the question just for fun - could a high-time pilot (13,000+ hours) sucessfully land a FS version of the aircraft that he flies. I've tried it with the Lear 35 (3,000 hours in type) and it was UGLY -and embarrassing. I guarantee that I have NEVER crashed the real airplane, but I can't say the same for FS. As a CFI/CFII I would admit that there might be some advantages to FS for the would be pilot, BUT caution must be used because there is a great danger that the FSer will inadvertantly pick up some bad habits then in grain them through repeated practice. I would NEVER recommend a would be pilot to practice flight procedures or techniques on the FS without some type of supervision. I've seen guys who thought they had it all "figured out" have to spend hundreds of additional $$$ to break the bad habits that they had formed. All in all, I don't think that it's worth the risk.

If you guys want to see a real sim I'd suggest that you visit the closest Flight Safety or Simuflite Learning center. (Flight Safety has centers across the country.) Just walk in and introduce yourself as a would-be pilot. I'd bet lunch that you'd end up with the $10 tour of the place and maybe they'd even let you to sit in and fly one of their $25 million Level D simulators for a few minutes.

By the way, those sims are fantastic! If you want to talk realistic, these level D sims are good enough to get your type rating in them with out ever having flown the real airplane.

Bottom line is this: FS is just a game. But if you're VERY careful there could be some advantages in it for a would be pilot.
 
Notar520AC
Posts: 1517
Joined: Sat Jul 21, 2001 6:53 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:50 pm

The Flight Sim is just not a game, it's a simulation of flight. I started in '97, and the first time I stepped in the cockpit of a Cessna, everything came naturally to me. Same with the chopper. It helps a lot!

 Smokin cool -Notar520AC
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
Guest

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Wed Nov 14, 2001 12:54 pm

This ought to be good...
 
captjetblast
Posts: 288
Joined: Thu Aug 30, 2001 5:59 am

Nothing Compares To Reality

Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:06 am

I've been using FS from years, flown flight plans as accurate as possible, and passed al the lessons, from Cessna to B767, B747, MD-11, etc. I even downloaded all the available panles for every plane.

But believe me, nothing compares to reality!

In the past I used to visiting real cockpits (since 9.11.01 it's impossible), and even the most accurate and complete MSFS panels have nothing to with real cockpits!

And when you wish to fly-sim, you just choose the plane and airport, apply throttles and flaps. Real pilots spend some time "warming" everything on board before t.o.

Regards.


 
wardialer
Posts: 1144
Joined: Fri Sep 14, 2001 1:08 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Thu Nov 15, 2001 2:24 pm

Also there are NO taxiway markings. Example would be A (ALPHA) B (BRAVO) etc.
 
Guest

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Sun Nov 18, 2001 9:04 am

Sorry, must disagree,
I enjoyed 'learning to fly' with MSfs so much that i did book myself an hour on the simulator at Cranebank Heathrow on a 777 and it was just like the; 'real thing'  Smile, only easier because of the sensory feedback that helps with visual flight.
I've also had 1 hour each on the 747 and 757 and took off and landed unaided purely from what i learn't toying with fs.
I'm not a pilot, though i am thinking of going for my PPL next year after i had an hour trial at stapleford earlier this year, and dont know the correct procedural operations of flying but i could handle the big sim easier than the MS one. So i do feel that i could actually handle a real jet, dunno bout crosswinds though  Smile.

ps. I'm going to treat myself to an hour on the 737 as an xmas prezzy to myself to see if its like the MS one  Smile

Log
 
NiteRider30
Posts: 145
Joined: Sun Jul 22, 2001 4:34 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Tue Nov 20, 2001 8:59 am

For anybody who thinks that somebody with only FS experience were to get into a Cessna and be able to land it without it being a scary experience, listen up. I am an avid Flight Sim'er, and have been since the good old DOS version Flight Sim 2. Earlier this year, I started flying a real Cessna, and I tell you that it is NOTHING like on FS. Sure, the controls may be the same, and the general fundamentals are the same. But there is absolutely no substitute for getting the "feel" of an aircraft. In FS, you have no control pressure... in real life, I get white knuckles if I don't trim it just right! I have to agree that FS is a good instrument trainer... but when it comes to visual flight, there is just no substitute for the real thing. For instance... let's say we're flying a Cessna 172 and we're landing in gusty winds. FS gives real life no justice in this case... as your slow airspeed on final will allow the wind to toss you around significantly. Your airspeed will also fluctuate, and it will be rather difficult maintaining a constant slope, and constant airspeed. Once you get down to the flare right above the runway, there are multiple scenarios... you could get a quick crosswind to blow you off to one side (or even totally off in an extreme case) of the runway... you could lose the wind, and the plane will slam into the runway... or you could get a gust underneath your wings and send back back into the sky at a near-stall airspeed. FS simulates none of this anywhere close to the extent in which you would experience it in real life. If I have yet to convince you, then I ask you to go your local FBO and sign up for a intro flight. Ask the instructor to let you land... and then you will see that FS experience won't help you in this phase of the flight.

NiteRider30
 
OH-LZA
Posts: 971
Joined: Fri Jun 08, 2001 12:29 am

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 2:59 am

For FS2000 there's a great payware add-on called 767 PIC, i am 99% sure i could operate the FMC (at least partially) and set the autoland on a B757 or B767.

Zulu Alpha
 
Western727
Posts: 1428
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2007 12:38 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 3:19 pm


I'd like to amend my opinion on the subject just a bit.

My flight school uses Diamond Katanas for instrument training. As some of you may know the Katana has a stick, rather than a yoke for aileron and elevator control. Since I have always used a stick on FS (always flown with the left hand), transitioning from yoke to a stick was no big deal... But then again, it might not have been a big deal anyway, but some people say that it's a lot different. It was just another airplane to me.
Jack @ AUS
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: Western727

Wed Nov 21, 2001 4:32 pm

I dunno- I've had very little FS time, most of my flying had been in spam cans with yokes. Went over to the Citabria (a newer Champ) a year ago. The transfer from left-hand yoke/right hand throttle to right hand stick/right hand throttle was effortless. The HARD part was re-learning what your feet are for.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
jsf119
Posts: 189
Joined: Thu Jul 26, 2001 3:46 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Wed Nov 21, 2001 4:51 pm

if you kids want realism save your money and take lessons
 
Guest

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Thu Nov 22, 2001 12:48 am

Bob, you hit the nail on the head. People who truly want to learn to fly will find some way to make it happen. Spending endless hours on a computer playing a game that has limited (at the very most) benefit is pointless. Going out and spending that same amount of time at a minimum wage job will make definite progress towards reaching your goal. Within out pilot group - 14 guys and a gal - we have people who worked at flea markets, car washes, janitorial services, pumped gas and flipped burgers at fast food joints to earn the money that they needed to learn how to fly. As for me, I bagged groceries at a supermarket. (We only have one guy who didn't go this route, he went to the Air Force Academy and Uncle Sam paid for his lessons.) And all of this "extra effort" while they were earning a living, raising a family, and/or going to school. It wasn't easy, but the effort was worth it. I guess that it's something that helps to weed out the less motivated which is probably a good thing.
 
uvalencia
Posts: 54
Joined: Sat Jun 02, 2001 12:23 pm

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Thu Nov 22, 2001 3:08 am

I must say that while reading this post I was a little bit reluctant to believe that the Flight Simulator didnt reproduce so well the real stuff. See, I am also a fan of the Flight Simulator, so reading all of this made me decide to see it by myself and this weekend I went to my nearest Cessna authorized training center and booked one of those discovery flights for 60 bucks. I must say that the experience is awesome, I flew in a very nice full equipped Cessna 172 for about 35 minutes over Wichita Ks, the instructor let me handle the aircraft almost the whole flight, of course except for take off and landing, but I must say that nothing comes close to the real thing in the sense of the feedback and the real forces you experience. So to all flight simmers go out and see how the real world is.
 
Guest

RE: Flightsim: Just Hw Realistic?

Thu Nov 22, 2001 7:23 am

I found that MS FS98 is fairly close (but not the same) to the real thing for the Cessna, from the cockpit instruments to the way it flies (except for the landing, the FS98 is too forgiving I think). However, it's not remotely close to any of the jets models. The FS98 is too erratic and does not represent the way they fly or respond to pilots' controls. This is just from my perspective of a low time PPL pilot (almost exclusively on the Cessna 150) and having flown on the MD-83, MD-11 class D simulators for many hours and recently an hour on the 737-200 simulator.

Happy Thanksgiving,
Nut

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: keesje and 10 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos