SailorOrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 12:40 am

I've been thinking about the Gimli Glider lately, and I was wondering whether the MEL has been changed after the incident. Is the fuel indicator on the MEL now (especially on the 767), and if no, under which conditions MUST it be operative?

SailorOrion
 
User avatar
HAWK21M
Posts: 29867
Joined: Fri Jan 05, 2001 10:05 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:21 am

Not sure about the B767.
But on the B737, the Fuel quantity indicator,Any ONE can be despatched under MEL.
regds
HAWK.
I may not win often, but I damn well never lose!!! ;)
 
242
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:10 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:13 am

MELs differ depending on the aircraft model and its operator, but usually you can have one or more fuel indicators inop as long as the amount of fuel in each tank is verified before departure via other means- (dripless sticks) and the fuel flow indicators are working properly.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:34 am

Having a fuel indicator is a basic instrument that is necessary for all types of aircraft... it is part of the minimum equipment list even for basic VFR operations.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
242
Posts: 495
Joined: Tue Oct 24, 2000 1:10 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 2:50 am

Having a fuel indicator is a basic instrument that is necessary for all types of aircraft... it is part of the minimum equipment list even for basic VFR operations.

I guess I'd better start filling out that NASA form.......

I just put a 727 fuel qty gauge on MEL last week.

 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:00 am

242,

When I get to work tonight I'll e-mail Airbus to get them to amend the A320 & A340 MMEL's and Boeing to amend the 747 MMEL's and remove the entries for inop fuel gauge's.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 5:45 am

The most current version of the 767 Master MEL (MMEL) can be found at:

http://www.opspecs.com/AFSDATA/MMELs/Final/transport/B767R27/

The specific item will be in Chapter 28..

Changes to the MMEL drive changes to an individual airline's internal MEL. Some MMEL changes can apply (in philosophy, as well as a technical basis) to other aircraft, and those aircraft MMELs also get changed.

As far as I'm aware, there were no significant changes made after Gimli in the ability to defer a fuel quantity indicator, as long as certain conditions or "privisos" are met.

For example, if a WING tang fuel quantity indicator is inop, a common stipulation is that the airline assure the actual quantity of fuel in the tank by either "dripsticking" the tank, -or- emptying the tank, and then refilling it with a known quantity (as per the truck's meter). Irrective of which ever method chosen, the MEL probably requires that the CENTER tank quantity indicator be operative, and likewise for the engine fuel flow indicators.

The key factor in the Gimli incident, if memory serves, was that while dripsticking, there was a human error made in converting dripstick measurements into pounds and kilograms of fuel. The MEL deferral process itself was (and continues to be) quite sound and rational, if properly complied with...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
SailorOrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:24 am

OPNLguy, you're right about the Gimli incident. However, I know that an aircraft flying on Polar 1,2,3,4 needs a running fuel indicator and fuel temp indicator. Dripping is NOT allowed on those routes.

SailorOrion
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 6:45 am

OK...

Your original question didn't mention specialized ops like polar, or extended range (ER) ops, so I just thought your were asking in general terms.

Certainly, some specialized ops have more stringent requirements...
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

242

Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:24 am

Hey.. I'm not an idiot, I know what I'm talking about... thus, i refer you to:

FAR Part 91.205, subparts (b), (c), and (d)... each section builds on the other requiring more equipment.

Specifically, (b)(9) which reads: "Fuel guage indicating the quantify of fuel in each tank."


There must be some exceptions though apparently to part 121 ops that I was not aware of. If not, better get scribbling on that NASA form.  Smile
Chicks dig winglets.
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:54 am

>>>Hey.. I'm not an idiot, I know what I'm talking about... thus, i refer you to: FAR Part 91.205, subparts (b), (c), and (d)...

One of the great (or not great) things you'll eventually come to learn about the FARs is that they are not necessarily "one-size-fits-all" with respect to applicability. If you'll scroll down a little further in Part 91, you'll notice 91.213:

http://www.access.gpo.gov/nara/cfr/cfrhtml_00/Title_14/14cfr91_00.html

As you can see, this FAR allows operation with some aircraft components inop, provided certain situations exist, and/or certain provisos are complied with. If an aircraft only had a single system for measuring fuel quantity, and/or there was no MMEL for that aircraft, yeah, your statement could be correct. If the aircraft had was equipped with a means for an alternative method of compliance to the FARs, and the specfic item was addressed in the aircraft's MEL, then your statement then becomes a little too generic and generalized, and thus ignoring the specifics of the situation.





ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 7:58 am

forgot about the MMEL... i appreciate the clarification.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
JETPILOT
Posts: 3094
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 6:40 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 10:14 am

You can put a fuel guage on an MEL....PROVIDED that the SP (specail procedure) is accomplished which usually means sticking the tanks before and after the flight.

The SP is just another way of verifying the quantity of fuel.

You guys are acting like guel guages are accurate.

JET
 
SailorOrion
Topic Author
Posts: 1959
Joined: Tue Feb 06, 2001 5:56 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Sat Nov 17, 2001 4:22 pm

OPNLguy, thanks for the link to the MMEL, I was looking for it.

I was mainly interested in the difference between the MMELs for different types and mission types (ETOPS, polar and stuff)

Thanks for all the info  Big thumbs up

SailorOrion
 
iceair204
Posts: 1
Joined: Wed Nov 09, 2005 8:26 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Thu Nov 22, 2001 10:10 pm

It is not that simple to ask if the MEL was changed after the incident. The thing is that Boeing issues a MMEL ( Master MEL ) for the 767 and all other aircraft they produce and each and every operator has to build and maintain their own MEL according to regulations and it can "not" be less than the manufactures Master Minimum Equipment List.

ICEAIR204
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Thu Nov 22, 2001 10:42 pm

The terminology used in this thread is a little misleading. If a particular system is NOT mentioned in an MEL that means that the system can not be inoperative. The term "adding" it to the MEL sort of implies that you want to make mention of the system and therefore allow for dispatch with the system inoperative.

One thing nobody has referred to is FAR 25 that requires "A fuel quantity indicator for each fuel tank".

That is why they are built with a fuel quantity indicator. As to whether it can be defferred or not, is a function of the MEL.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Fri Nov 23, 2001 1:26 am

The crew of the Gimli Glider made a terrible decision (illegal) to accept and fly an aircraft with more than one main fuel quantity system inoperative.

The generic MEL for any airliner is, 1 main fuel quantity sys. inop - "go". 2 (or more) main fuel quantity indication systems inop - "grounded".

A terrible lapse in judgement in my opinion.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Jet-A gasguy
Posts: 259
Joined: Sun Dec 24, 2000 4:04 pm

RE: Fuel Indicator On Mel?

Fri Nov 23, 2001 4:04 am

Aren't ETOPS flights different? I was always under the impression that if one of the cockpit indictors was INOP on an ETOPS flight then the flight wouldn't go.(at least not with passengers on board-ferry only) At least thats been my experience.

Jet-A gasguy
Find a job you love, and you'll never work a day in your life.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: Bing [Bot] and 17 guests