peterba69
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:31 am

Composite Usage On

Sat Nov 17, 2001 1:32 am

Hello, I'm new here, and love the forum. I know that cowlings and fairings are composite, but what about horiz. and vert. fins ? I get a mag. called "Advanced Composites" that had a great art. re.: JSF horiz. stab's being all carbon/matrix, but they still attach to the A/C with Alum. fittings built in.
 
peterba69
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:31 am

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Nov 19, 2001 12:53 am

Interesting. After three days here, noone touched this one. I was basically referring to Airbus, 'cause I've seen enough Boeing production line pic's to know that the V&H fins are alloy. The rudders, elevators, flaps, ailerons and spoilers are painted before ass'y. Anybody know if Airbus is the same? I would assume that they are.
 
Ikarus
Posts: 3391
Joined: Mon Jan 08, 2001 10:18 pm

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Nov 19, 2001 2:22 am

As far as I know, the horizontal and vertical fins of all Airbuses since the 320 are composites. As well as some of the flaps, the spoilers, ailerons and other control surfaces. Same would go for the 777.

If you are a composites fan, you must love the Raytheon Premier 1 business jet, eh?

Regards

Ikarus
 
peterba69
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:31 am

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Nov 19, 2001 4:37 am

Thx for the response. I was an A&P student back in '90, finished in '91 right as Eastern, Pan Am, & several others folded (great timing). Composite class was probably the most interesting, because it was about the only modern tech. they taught with no turbines to work on that ran, and hardly any pistons either (S#%^^a A*ad%+y was the school in OAK). We got a tour through UAL's mx. facility in SFO. Way cool. Engine shop and test cell, composite shop, sheetmetal, avionics, and about twenty(?) A/C in various states of insp./repair.
Yes, the Premier is very nice. Also went in Alaska's mx.& watched a guy doing repair on a nose cone.
 
FDXmech
Posts: 3219
Joined: Sun Mar 19, 2000 9:48 pm

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:05 am

Hello Peterba69,
I must have overlooked your post, sorry.

Actually the A300-600 (and A310-300) vertical stabilizer is entirely composite in addition to the aforementioned A320+ series of a/c. The A310-200 are of made with conventional aluminum.

I was surprised to learn that even where the vertical stab mates with the empennage (where the 6 bolts go) is composite (on the vert stab side). This appeared to me (from viewing the NTSB web site) as if several of these composite mounts failed. This is just my opinion but see for yourself.

I would at this point think Airbus is concentrating a vast amount of their engineering resources to quickly resolve this problem.

You're only as good as your last departure.
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:17 am

At the A300 accident in NY, how exactly did the tailfin break away?

Exactly which components failed? Would be good to know...
 
peterba69
Posts: 147
Joined: Fri Mar 01, 2002 9:31 am

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Nov 19, 2001 5:23 am

I hadn't looked at NTSB's site before. Those comp. fittings look terribly torn up, for lack of a better term. It looks almost like fretting corrosion, although we know that's not the case, but they are severely delaminated, and the bolt holes look "worn", although I'll be dipped to find out what kind of movement could cause the wear (see the blackish look to the holes).
 
Klaus
Posts: 20649
Joined: Wed Jul 11, 2001 7:41 am

Peterba69

Tue Nov 20, 2001 3:06 am

Thanks. I hope a preliminary report will shed more light on this detail.
 
BWIrwy4
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:41 pm

RE: Composite Usage On

Mon Dec 03, 2001 3:26 am

I'm very surprised that Airbus uses composites for the control surfaces. As far as I know, this is the first plane crash attributable to composite failure (preliminary I know, but until the NTSB report comes out, I have to go based on what I see, and I see some very torn up fittings) but I follow sailing very closely as well as aviation. A bunch of racing boats have switched to carbon fiber masts. They're light, but they have a tendency to break at inopportune times. Also, two America's Cup class boats, with carbon hulls, have broken in half and sank. I don't know, but it seems that Airbus is playing with fire with this relatively new technology.
 
BlatantEcho
Posts: 1820
Joined: Wed Sep 27, 2000 10:11 am

BWIrwy4

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:18 pm

I also sailing and follow sailing very closely, and some of this is similar to what happened to the old AmericaOne American's Cup boats.

They were bought by the Oracle team and training in NZ a few weeks ago, the keel came off for the second time. Dunno if the hulls of the AmerciaOne (USA 51 was it???) were complete composite, or what, but the seperation of the keel is somewhat mirrored by the tail seperation of the AA plane.

In any event, my neighbor owns a Wiley Cat 30 with an unstayed carbon fiber stick, and to see that thing bend at various points of sail is pretty amazing.

The weight savings are tremendous, but i do hope Airbus and Boeing alike are looking into possible wear and tear problems in composites.

BlatantEcho
They're not handing trophies out today
 
Minuteman
Posts: 260
Joined: Sat Aug 05, 2000 1:01 am

RE: Composite Usage On

Fri Dec 07, 2001 12:49 pm

Wood is a composite material. It is essentially fibers in a binding matrix that has anisotropic properties.

Fiberglass is a composite.

Just like wood, manufactured composite materials come in a variety of toughnesses and elasticities..compare balsa versus pine versus oak.

I'd say Airbus has done an excellent job with their tailoring and use of composite materials. 20+ years of service from some of the earlier iterations of composite material without earning a negative reputation or having a bad streak...much of that time before practical NDT of composites existed (or maybe that was it...the inspection interval was conservative and chosen well before a part could fail).

Either way, think about taking a cantilevered wooden structure and freezing it several times a day and applying many varying loads throughout. Now multiply that times 15 years. Would it last?

I'm curious about the inspection methods for the Premiere I. Obviously they can't pop off a panel or remove a section for inspection (can they?). I've heard of an ultrasonic/thermal device that vibrates the structure and then looks for "hot" spots (fractions of a degree difference) where the edges of material are rubbing. This is supposed to help find delamination and cracking in its early stages.

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