concorde1518
Posts: 723
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 12:02 pm

What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Tue Dec 04, 2001 12:24 pm

Hi, I got curious over the 767-400's range, and how the problem seems to lie in DALPA not allowing pilots to work a flight long enough for a ATL-HNL flight. So, what are the necessary "accommodations" if you will, for the "heavies?"
1) Do you need beds below decks or somewhere, or just enough jumpseats for them and nonrevs?

2) Also, how many Heavies are needed? I remember From the cockpit reports in airliner world show BA's LHR to HKG (744) to carry 2, but virgin's Shanghai to LHR (A343) only carries one.

3) What aircraft are equipped to carry heavies? Like, 777's, 747's and L-1011 size aircraft?


Any help is appreciated greatly!
Aaron
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Tue Dec 04, 2001 2:25 pm

First of all, the term "heavy" refers to an aircraft's weight, if a plane weighs a lot, it is referred to as a "heavy".

I believe you are refering to the "relief crew". The relief crew are just that. When the first group of pilots fulfill their time in the cockpit, the relief crew will take over. They consist of totally new captains, first officers, and flight engineers.

Yeah, I remember hearing about the ATL-HNL flight. The last I heard, they have a "technical stop" in LAX in order to change crews.

Since ATL-HNL is a long flight, you obviously need a relief crew, but I don't remember what was so special about this flight. When I flew ATL-LGW a 777 (which also had a relief crew), I saw one pilot leave the cockpit and he went to sleep in one of the seats in Business Elite (First Class). However, some pilots and flight attendants go to sleep in bunk beds that are right behind the cockpit I think (there are pictures of them on this site).

I'm sure the pilots can go to sleep in the first class seats, but they may have demanded that they have bunk beds, which the 764 (which is used on the ATL-HNL route) does not have. So, the pilots can demand a technical rest stop then.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
TurbineBeaver
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 1:50 am

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Tue Dec 04, 2001 3:35 pm

Panam747,

Sorry, not to be mean but you are wrong! Relief crews consist of usually another first officer and what is called a "2nd officer". The 1st officer is trained to sit in the left seat, and the 2nd officer sits in the right seat. These two only fly the aircraft in flight, at cruise, which consists of talking to ATC, turning once in a while to avoid a storm, climbing/descending, and checking the navigation systems, (and of course monitoring systems!). There is never more then one captain on an airplane, if there were, the term would be redundant!! If want more info about this, ask CXFlyboy, he is a 2nd officer on the 744 for Cathay Pacific.

TB
 
PanAm747
Posts: 4713
Joined: Mon Mar 01, 2004 4:46 am

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Tue Dec 04, 2001 4:04 pm

Sorry about that, I thought there was of course a main captain and a "cruise captain". Thanks for correcting me.
Pan Am:The World's Most Experienced Airline - P(oor) S(ailor's) A(irline): San Diego's Hometown Airline-Catch Our Smile!
 
concorde1518
Posts: 723
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 12:02 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Wed Dec 05, 2001 6:41 am

Sorry about the mix-up. I was going off the info from a "From the cockpit" report in Airliner world. They used the term "Heavy Crew" to mean relief crew. Also, it says the the "Handling Pilots" will become This "Heavy crew" for the flight home. Just wondering if the 764 couldn't handle this because of a lack of enough jumpseats, and what the policy is for carrying 1 relief pilot (There was only 1 on a later "from the cockpit report" in the ?October 2000? issue) Just to site the source, I am getting this from the August 2000 "Airliner World."
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:40 am

How does the relief crew rank from a crew bidding/seniority point of view? If there can only be one captain on the plane, are both relief crew technically considered FOs? Or are they a rank/position to themselves?

Does the left seat relief pilot considered to be higher rank than the right seat relief pilot?

 
AJ
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:54 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Wed Dec 05, 2001 9:48 am

Different airlines run the 'relief' system differently.
For example a British Airways crew for a long haul flight may consist of two Captains and two First Officers, one of each performing cruise duties only. There are bunks on the flight deck for the off duty pilots.
Singapore runs quite a few flights (SQ006 for example) with one Captain and two First Officers.
Qantas (and Cathay) employs Second Officers, trained pilots on the aircraft type who aren't necessarily rated on type. On a Qantas long haul flight there may be a Captain, a First Officer and two Second Officers. The Captain and First Officer can only operate from their seats, so the Second Officer relieves the other pilots by sitting in the left OR right seat as required.
The minimum crew compliment is decided by Civil Aviation Regulation/Federal Aviation Regulation or the local equivilent in conjunction with the pilot body and the company.
 
EHAM06
Posts: 145
Joined: Sat Oct 27, 2001 6:17 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Wed Dec 05, 2001 7:25 pm

Hello,
in the tail of the 744 there are beds provided for the crew
 
BWIrwy4
Posts: 877
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 1:41 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Thu Dec 06, 2001 12:09 am

SQ is flying 006?? I thought the airlines change the flight number after a crash. That would make sense to me; anybody here want to fly on PanAm 103 or TWA 800?? I didn't think so.
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Thu Dec 06, 2001 7:37 am

SQ 006 is now called SQ 30.
 
concorde1518
Posts: 723
Joined: Thu May 17, 2001 12:02 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Thu Dec 06, 2001 8:34 am

Yes, flying on AA 11 doens't sound good at all.  Sad
 
AJ
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:54 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Thu Dec 06, 2001 9:02 am

SQ006 was a flight where the media made it clear the flight deck crew consisted of two F/Os and a Captain.
 
Goldenshield
Posts: 5015
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 3:45 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Fri Dec 07, 2001 9:41 am

There is a forum in another website, where a retired 747-400 captain would answer questions.

I can remember reading one of his replies where he said that there was 2 sets of crew, in other words, 2 captains, and 2 first officers. The way they went worked this was a follows:

The first crew would do all the preflighting, takeoff, and cruise during the first half of the flight.

The second crew would then come in and relieve them, leaving the first crew to get some sleep.

Two all beef patties, special sauce, lettuce, cheese, pickles, onions on a sesame seed bun.
 
Gregg
Posts: 313
Joined: Sun Jun 18, 2000 12:49 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Sun Dec 09, 2001 11:51 am

EHAM06,
The pilot rest area in the 744 is right behind the cockpit. (when sitting on the upper deck, the front left side of deck is the crew rest area, right front is two bathrooms)

Some airlines have flight attendant rest areas in the rear of the a/c
 
kaitakfan
Posts: 1482
Joined: Fri Oct 29, 1999 1:04 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Sun Dec 09, 2001 12:03 pm

well just a bit of info regarding relief crews... on one flight from SFO-SYD every single pilot in that cockpit was 747-400 captain rated... just the most senior takes the full captain title I guess. they were all high in age as well... so i didnt doubt it. anyone else hear of something like this?
 
seagull
Posts: 334
Joined: Sat Jun 30, 2001 5:58 pm

RE: What Is The Deal With "Heavies"

Sun Dec 09, 2001 12:07 pm

The relief crew size depends on the length of flight and the regulations under which the carrier operates and the contractual requirements. The relief crew can be one regular first officer, a "second officer" (at some carriers, where the person is not qualified as a F/O), but can also be a Captain. On longer flights there can be a full double crew, a relief crew or some other combination. Depending on the carrier the double crew can be anything from a capt and f/o plus an additional f/o and a "second officer" to 3 f/o's and a captain, to 4 captains.

The only actual requirement being that there are enough qualified pilots to be legal, but that can be satisfied in a number of different ways, as you can see.

A separate set of rules, contractual and regulatory, dictate whether the crew requires actual bunks or just a seat in the back. For example, in the U.S. after 12 hrs you need a real bunk, below that the requirement for additional crewmembers is just that, and they can all be on duty the whole flight (contractual rules may be more restrictive). There is also no set schedule that crews need to follow on when they rest, usually the capt gets first choice of when, then the others based on seniority, crew position, or just mutual agreement. It's not structured at all (despite what the news media seemed to think on the Egypt Air accident).

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: AirstairFear, zee73 and 16 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos