david b.
Posts: 2894
Joined: Fri Jun 15, 2001 7:18 pm

How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Jan 29, 2002 10:45 am

Steer hard to the left?




Or go for a swim?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
Beefmoney
Posts: 1065
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:02 am

I would have, and he should have gone around looooong ago, you should never put your passengers in that kind of danger. But as some people say "Real men never go around!"
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:08 am

First picture is a typical crosswind landing at Kai Tak. Perhaps the pilot didn't kick the rudder fast enough to shrighten out before touch down. If you don't use crab capibilities of the 747, the events in the second picture will happen.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy You should see the Korean Cargo pilots. Fresh out of fighter jet school(doing the same things with a 747)  Laugh out loud

Tony,
B767-400er
 
SophieMaltese
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Jan 29, 2002 11:35 am

"Real men never go around!"

Maybe this is why, when I was flying with an instructor other than my usual one and I went to make a go around, he grabbed the controls and finished the landing. My regular CFI told me, "He should have let you go around."
 
barney captain
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sun Feb 03, 2002 7:01 am

The 747 is designed to land in a crab, up to 45% off centerline. This prevents dragging an outside engine (second pic).
Southeast Of Disorder
 
CPH-R
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sun Feb 03, 2002 11:36 am

Alas, I can't remember which airline was operating the aircraft in the first image, but I've been told that there is a sort of honour code between Asian pilots, where a go-around would mean a great shame for the pilot, as it indicates that he has not been focusing enough on landing the aircraft.

Can anyone confirm that this exists?
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sun Feb 03, 2002 11:43 am

If I'm flying, I would have gone around. I guess this kind of landings in Kai Tak during in crosswinds are inveitable, but isn't it a bit too much of a danger, especially that guy in the first pic?
Boeing747 万岁!
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sun Feb 03, 2002 12:06 pm

Uhhh..note that that is not a typical crosswind landing at kai tak..sheesh. He should have gone around long ago.

I super pilot! I not go around! I scrape engine on ground! I get most popular picture on airliners.net!

My dad flew into that airport many many times when he was on the 747-200 and never crapped a landing like that.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 11:07 am

RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sun Feb 03, 2002 1:06 pm

I've flown into Kai Tak around 70 times during the period of 1994 until closing of that airport. In fact, my father used to work there managing the radio systems.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy I can't say it's an fequent occurance, but if there is a slight amount of crosswind, perhaps a gust that the pilot didn't anticapate, it would result in a crab landing because there is very little time for correcting with a bank after(or during) the 47 degree starboard turn. I've remembered about 5 (noticable ones anyways) crab landings, 2 of them were during typhoons.

As to pilots worrying about harming their pride in a go-around, I think most pilots (note I said MOST  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ) are smart enough to know that killing 200+ pax and more then likely him/herself plus a 180 million dollor plane, is worst then maybe a couple of laughs from other pilots.

The good old days at Kai Tak will be missed. Espically now with the not-that-exciting CLK.

Tony,
B767-400er
CYYZ RWYs 24R-06L and 24L-06R are now 23-05 and 24R-06L!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
A/c train
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Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:57 am

CPH-R

Sun Feb 03, 2002 10:19 pm

Sorry mate but that has got to be the biggest load of crap i've heard in a long time , you cannot justify a tradition being the result for the death of 450 + people, think about what your saying, you can't kamikazee a 747!!!!! I dont know were you've heard that from but in this industry you have to learn to seperate the good knowledge from the b'' '' '' ''shi'', put your brain into gear before typing,
regards,
a/c
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Mon Feb 04, 2002 3:14 am

Agreed A/c train! It would be more shameful to see a couple hundred dead people and a wrecked plane then a simple, normal go-around.

Tony,
B767-400er

 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Mon Feb 04, 2002 4:53 am

Only explanation is that this is a former J-3 pilot trying to land across the runway rather than down it. Actually, if good landings come out of good approaches, I'd love to see a video of the whole approach. It was bound to never have been stabilized and should have been a go-around.
 
Notar520AC
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Mon Feb 04, 2002 11:21 am

Can you say, "Surfing Kai Tak?"
BMW - The Ultimate Driving Machine
 
MagicMan_841
Posts: 177
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Mon Feb 04, 2002 12:10 pm

These things are designed to substain a landing with an angle of over 45º between the gear and the runway....hee hee....the pilot must have been puckered to it's brain on that one tho...

Magic
 
Give it a GO
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:15 am

Corrections can also be made through the use of differential reverse thrust.
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:37 am

Correct what? This ceased being a landing at the runway threshold and became a crash, instead. I hope that the captain got his ticket lifted.
 
CPH-R
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 4:56 am

Like I said, please correct me if I was wrong. And so, obviously I was.
By the way, show me one point where I said that it was OK to kamikaze the 747. I just said that there was some sort of thing going on, where a go-around meant a great shame.
 
norseman
Posts: 41
Joined: Thu Feb 22, 2001 10:22 am

RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 5:26 am

Sorry folks, I've heard on numerous occasions from people who train Asian pilots that this mentality does exist. I'm not saying it happens regularly, but it does exist. Pilots get so focused on landing the plane that going around doesn't even come into their mind. The idea of electing a go-around means that they have failed. I hate to tell you, but It's not like this stuff doesn't happen state-side as well. There have been many incidences caused by pilots electing to not go-around when they obviously should have.
 
Guest

RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 7:19 am


Guys, just an observation:

Using traditional crosswind technique (landing with one wing low) is not an option in a 747, or any other airplane with engines hanging off the wings. And you don't think the engineers at Boeing were aware of this? These airplanes are designed for this.

The pilots of this particular flight had two options - land with the crab angle, or divert. I do not know what I would have done, because I was not at the controls during the approach. But I think instantly pass judgements like "they should have gone around" is to do so without all the facts.
 
Guest

RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 7:21 am



PS - I'm a real man, and I go around.
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 1:47 pm

It is correct that the 747 is designed to be capable of this kind of landing, but pilots are not taught to land like that on a dry runway. We are taught to kick out the rudder upon flaring, whilst using aileron to keep the wings level. By this time, you will not drift off centreline too much.

When landing on a wet runway it is permissable (But not very good technique) to land with the crab, the slippery runway will aide in helping you to correct and track the centerline.

The photos show landings quite often done when flying the IGS with a tailwind. Pilots tend to forget that they're going to get blown wide, and have to get a very large crab angle to get back over the centerline. Often they land still in that attitude rather than go-around.
 
sudden
Posts: 3934
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:08 pm

Just makes me think....

Does this have to be crosswindlanding?
I meen alot of approaches to Kai Tak looked like that cause of the heavy right turn at the checkerboard. Could it have been that and not a heavy crosswind?

I don't have all the facts so I stand corrected if that's the case.

Regards!
Sudden
 Smile
When in doubt, flat out!
 
L-188
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Fri Feb 08, 2002 9:17 pm

Left rudder. LEFT RUDDER!!!!
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Mr.BA
Posts: 3310
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sat Feb 09, 2002 11:38 pm

"We are taught to kick out the rudder upon flaring, whilst using aileron to keep the wings level."

For example, when we kick the left rudder, will the plane tend to roll left or right?

Thanks

alvin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
musang
Posts: 788
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Sun Feb 10, 2002 1:04 am

Mr BA - If you kick in left rudder the aircraft yaws left, right wing travels through the air faster, develops more lift, so rolls left also. On that basis the answer would have been to feed in left rudder and simultaneous co-ordinated right aileron. Thats the technique for x-wind landings in aircraft which are able to land wing low.

A/c train - CPH-R is correct, there is a cultural trait amongst Asians which equates seniority with infallibility, and makes it difficult for juniors (read co-pilots) to correct or even to question the actions of their seniors (i.e. Captains, or even FEs).

Its known as "saving face", and going around does indeed mean, to many, that mistakes were made leading up to the GA. This is unspeakable, and to admit it is disgrace.

For evidence of the phenomenon, and to allow you to apologise to CPH-R for your post, read the Delta Airlines safety audit which they did on Korean Air a couple of years ago. It contains numerous references to the issue in question, as well as being a frightening inditement of Korean's safety culture.

I haven't seen the Korean Stansted 747F crash report, but believe the FE and FO both made verbal references to the attitude problem, but neither took positive action. The FO, with a functioning attitude indicator, sat and watched the captain slice it into the ground.

For a junior crew member, daring to infer a critisism of the captain wouldn't be worth the risk of the disgrace if he found himself wrong.

Its not only other cultures. A classic example which now figures prominently in CRM training involves an American (but NOT AA) 727 crew landing at night. Throughout the flight the Captain and FE have been ganging up on the FO, making fun of him etc. The captain sets up an approach which the FO thinks will end up landing long, on a short runway. The FO voices his concerns several times, only to be shot down by the other two. The Captain of course drives it off the end of the runway, in a classic "Told You So" incident. The difference between this and the Asian idea is that the FO correctly spoke up, but the Captain wouldn't accept critisism.

Saving Face, and unconditional respect for authority/seniority are, unfortunately, known cultural traits in several Asian cultures, and completely at odds with safe flying.

What was going on the original Kai Tak picture we don't know, but I just thought I'd lend support to CPH-R against the uninformed reply to his post.

Regards - Musang
 
sudden
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Mon Feb 11, 2002 5:17 pm

That's what I call a good reply!!!  Big thumbs up
When in doubt, flat out!
 
A/c train
Posts: 674
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Mon Feb 11, 2002 11:56 pm

Apologies To CPH-R,I jumped the gun on him a bit, but it sounds so rediculous!, it's insane even, I would hold someone in high regard for making the decision to GA ,it's not as if you can discuss the pros and cons on approach!!, but its stupid and un proffessional to think shame on someone if he admits to going round!, Musang I can't argue your point because you know a dam site lot more than I do on the subject!, but as long as you can see were im coming from with my point. 'Shame on you for going round!!' what a load of B'' '' '' ''cks!, as I say 500+people to consider, not the shame or disgrace you have on yourself! you should respect the decision in my view! bloomin Asians!
regards
a/c
 
duggan
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 12:23 am

Some more kai tak :


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Samuel lo



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Samuel Lo



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Daryl Chapman



Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Daryl Chapman

 
PPGMD
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 4:25 am

CH's asain attitude is correct for a few of the pilots, I have heard that a Japanesse pilot once commited Seppeku (ritualistic honorable sucide) after he tailstriked his airliner on landing. So there is that honor BS there for some of the asaian pilots, its the same idea as "Real men don't use flaps."
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
A/c train
Posts: 674
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:10 am

OMG!!! come on guys this is B'' '' '' '' '' it!, ritualistic suicide!!! and you expect someone reading this whos going to fly on JAL or 'some airline over there' tomorrow to be comfortable with what she/he is reading-
REALITY CHECK:::
They honestly let these people take responsibility for peoples lifes,
????????
regards
a/c
 
CPH-R
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Tue Feb 12, 2002 9:20 am

a/c Train:
No problem, we're all allowed to have our own opinions here  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Admitted, I WAS very concerned whether or not it was correct, as I had a hard time remembering where I had seen this, but Musang's reference to the Delta report made me remember that it was during a previous discussion of the report that the code thing came up.
 
musang
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Wed Feb 13, 2002 5:36 am

Its "saving face" again. Two other suicides I can think of after Asian airliner accidents are the Bangladesh Biman 707 which lost all four on take-off at Singapore in early 1980. The pilot landed within the airport perimeter with no fatalities. Until the FE, who had mis-managed the fuel system, got to his hotel room and hanged himself.

In another incident, the details of which I can't find right now so I won't malign anyone by guessing, a 707 (Asian carrier) crashlanded and caught fire. Everyone got out without too much problem, including the FE. The pilots however chose to stay in the flight deck and perished. The FE testified they were uninjured and could have left with him. As they say in the States - "Go Figure!"

These unfortunates would have faced shame and dishonour not only from their (ex) colleagues, but family and friends also.

I don't have an an axe to grind with Asian airlines, I lived in Singapore for many years, enjoyed it, and was grateful for that opportunity. But this kind of thing does seem to come up more with them than in other parts of the world.

The Singapore Airlines at Taipei last year - highly experienced Skipper, junior FO. Difficult for the latter to put his foot down if he has doubts, also the assumption is there that the captain is high-time, so won't make a mistake.

I wonder if the same was true with the CAL A340 incident?

Regards - Musang
 
A/c train
Posts: 674
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RE: How You The Pilot Correct This?

Wed Feb 13, 2002 6:07 am

It sounds like the Pax came first from what you are saying Musang, the errors which you have singled out a 'mismanaged fuel system' and the others are none the less Very critical and would have probarbly resulted in the guy getting the sack maybe, someone whos been around longer than me can clear that up, but it has to be questioned weather these guys are mentally fit?, its not an everyday occurence for people to hang themselve's over these incidents, as in the Engineering side of the industry, my eventual target is to be a Line Engineer, 'A+C licenced Tech' and I know that if I have any doubt in my mind as I watch the a/c approach the runway threshold from a turnaround or a pre flight/daily, that something hasn't been done correctly that aircraft comes back I!!!, I wouldn't hand out bollokings as long as the person responsible realises his/her mistake and Never lets it happen again, No shame, as for myself aswell!!, it depends who my boss is!!lol, So the a/c doesn't go if I have any unsurity or doubt in my mind, even if its just turned on too the runway threshhold,
regards,
a/c
 
EGGD
Posts: 11880
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Musang

Wed Feb 13, 2002 7:41 am

Hey, could this 'saving face' attitude have anything to do with the Saudia L1011 fire where they landed and carried on with usual procedure, before everybody in the aircraft suffocated from the fumes, before being effectively cremated?

It sounds like it to me!!! wow.

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