mirrodie
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For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 18, 2002 6:46 am

Musang? AZJ?

When you taxi up to the runway and turn onto it, do you normally hold the brakes while starting to spool up the engines and then let go?

Or do you just turn on to the runway, line up and slowly advance the throttle?

Some airline video I've seen suggests that pilots will turn onto the runway, line up and hold the brakes. Then as the engines spool up, then let go and the a/c lurches forward.

Just another thought I had. I checked the search but to no avail.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
musang
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:26 am

Hi Mirrodie

With a non-limiting runway, line up, release brakes and steadily increase to t/o thrust.

Some short runways with difficult terrain, e.g. those in valleys, spool up to t/o thrust on the brakes, then release.

One place we go, Geilo in Norway, has a compacted snow runway. At full thrust, the brakes won't hold it so we have to give in and let it go!

Regards - Musang
 
Rick767
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:47 am

To confirm Musang's statement, at my airline we would prefer to spool up without brakes held provided the runway length is non-limiting.

Otherwise we hold the brakes as we stabilise the thrust, then once stable release brakes and advance to takeoff thrust (757/767).

Hope this helped!
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
cv640
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 18, 2002 7:49 am

It actually depends. I fly for Northwest Airlink and with the CRJ all our performance numbers over ACARS are based off of a standing take off with us running the engines up and stablizing before we release the breaks. Supposedly they are working with Jeppeson to develop rolling take off numbers.
 
Guest

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 18, 2002 9:12 am

Our manual allows us to make "rolling" takeoffs provided the available runway is at 10% greater than our calculated takeoff distance. It makes for a much more comfortable takeoff for our passengers.
 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 18, 2002 12:31 pm

In over 30 years of airline flying, have never done anything other than rolling takeoffs EXCEPT stabilized thrust for a predetermined period due to engine anti-icing requirements.
IF I catch any pilot standing on the brakes with max thrust in our airline, he/she will be terminated forthwith...and yes, am in management.
 
mirrodie
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:13 am

Thanks to Musang and all of you.

As always, you guys rock and make this forum a pleasure.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
WhiskeyNovembr
Posts: 96
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:04 am


411A states, "IF I catch any pilot standing on the brakes with max thrust in our airline, he/she will be terminated forthwith...and yes, am in management".

Attitudes like this are exactly what lead to the feelings of resentment between airline management and pilot groups. Rather than taking the stance of immediate termination and direct threats, airline management would do well to treat their employees with respect and create an environment in which all may learn from their mistakes and become safer in the process.

This is exactly the direction the aviation governing and safety authorities have taken. Remember when the industry subscribed to the theory that anything less than 100% perfection would lead to termination? Pilots were afraid to ever talk about human error for fear of being terminated. Airline management didn't realize that you can't fix problems you don't know about. A lot of accidents resulted from such narrow-minded thinking.

Luckily, our industry has evolved into an environment in which it is realized that mistakes related to human factors are unavoidable and WILL occur. Programs such as Crew Resource Management (CRM), derived from United's CLR have prevented countless accidents and incidents, and cultivate an open, learning environment in which all can (and do) benefit.

Let me know which airline you fly for, 411A. I'll be sure to take my career elsewhere.



 
WhalePilot
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:29 am

Don't worry about it Whiskey November, if this guy is truely management for a Phoenix based airline, they won't be around much longer anyway. And if it's the Phoenix base commuter, you don't want to work there anyway.
 
Rick767
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:30 am

My god 411A who barked up your tree?

Glad I don't fly for your airline.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
saab2000
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WhiskeyNovember

Tue Feb 19, 2002 1:53 am

Well said, sir!!

You are exactly right in saying what you said about 411A. He does not say for whom he flies nor on what aircraft type. I am also not interested in flying with that type of attitude.

The procecures for T/O thrust and brake use would of course be made between the aircraft manufacturer and the performance department of the airline. If the procedure calls for one or another type of T/O then I would expect all pilots who fly that type for that airline to abide by that procedure. Nothing more, nothing less. The attitude that someone is here to "catch" the other one is very poor CRM and is what makes it tough for someone to work with a person with that sort of attitude. In the flight deck we need to work together, not compete with each other and not try to "catch" the other one unless there is a deliberate breach of procedures which compromises safety.



smrtrthnu
 
Freya
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:13 am

Presumably, then,411A, during those 30 years you have never had occasion to depart from a runway which is field length limited? Would you perhaps care to modify your remarks with particular reference to 4 jet transport aircraft departing ASPEN? Thank you.
 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:08 am

Don't worry guys, many (if not all) of the posters here would NOT be welcome anyway. We hire professionals, with a very good repoire between flight crew and management....and the young First Officers learn first-hand the proper way to operate the aircraft....and these guys all smile on the way to the bank.
Not in PHX either...more like half way 'round the world.
Standing, full thrust takeoffs are necessary ONLY when the runway is very limiting....we instead reduce the MTOW (payload)...thereby saving the engines for another day. It is called....cost effective management.
The engines used (RB.211) are expensive ($2.5 million+) to overhaul, not a small amount in our opinion.
Oh yes, CRM...well, we hire very experienced Captains so that there is NO mis-understanding about WHOM is in charge, period.
Over...

 
EssentialPowr
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 7:33 am

411A

Just wondering - What does your FOM say about full thrust/holding the brakes?


 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:08 pm

Essential power--
Not to be done unless there is no other option.
And IMHO, not to be done, period. The concerned pilot had better have at least a dozen reasons.
A better solution would be to hold brakes, stabilize engines at 60% N1, release brakes and advance throttles smoothly and firmly to max EPR, to be set between 40 to 80 knots at the latest.
And, the key crew member here is the Flight Engineer, which we highly appreciate.

 
EssentialPowr
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:23 pm

What are your concerns w/ holding brakes at max thrust? By the nature of the situation, this scenario wouldn't be an everyday event...

From what you say, reducing payload in order to reduce engine stress by a slight amount doesn't make sense. Maximizing payload is the name of the game; if max blast is required to maximize PAYload, so be it. I think a crew would have a tougher time explaining why they offloaded PAYload in order to save the engines. With that kind of logic, why not just put the a/c in a hangar and lock the doors?
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 12:35 pm

My guess is that you're worried about compressor stalls...I don't know much about the RB211 or the L1011, but hopefully you're a little more flexible than you sound. Crews are paid to exercise judgement and fly the a/c; your position sounds like micro management.
 
WhiskeyNovembr
Posts: 96
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 2:30 pm



411A states: "We hire professionals, with a very good repoire between flight crew and management....and the young First Officers learn firsthand the proper way to operate the aircraft."

So...let me see if I understand you correctly, 411A. Are you suggesting that your wonder-pilots are immune to human error? Are they advanced androids? From another planet, perhaps?




Just when you think he can't outdo himself, 411A states: "Oh yes, CRM...well, we hire very experienced Captains so that there is NO misunderstanding about WHOM is in charge, period".

This is actually frightening. CREW resource management is not based on hiring experienced captains to order the other flight crew members around. I repeat...it is NOT. Crew resource management revolves around the open exchange of ideas, information, and thoughts pertinent to the flight. While rank and experience dictate who has the ultimate authority, a captain such as yourself who does not permit his or her flight crew to express themselves or does not properly respect and utilize their crewmembers own flight experience will burn in a crash or rot in a watery grave.

Air Florida had a captain like that once. If you had any desire to evolve into a safe, modern aviator, you'd read a little about CRM and learn that he took 74 people to their graves with him. Oh, but then again, I guess you're too professional and experienced to concern yourself with such petty matters...






 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 4:51 pm

No problem with compressor stalls on the RB.211, EssentialPower, I just consider it VERY bad form to hold brakes with MAX power. And as my opinion counts, it just is not done.
And for WhiskeyNovember, the problem with Palm 90 (Air Florida) was the Captain. He had VERY little cold weather experience. The blame there can be pointed directly at their flight operations management. Very poor training.
And as for CRM, the way it is presented today, IMHO 'tis a complete waste of time. In years past, it was called "co-operation" and seemed to work quite well indeed. Ideas are exchanged and a plan developed.
The only part of CRM courses today that I find worthwhile is accident/incident review. Much can be learned from others' mistakes.
 
musang
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 8:02 pm

411A is either deliberately trying to wind us up, or is a prime example of the saying - those most in need of CRM training are the ones most resistant to it.

Regards - Musang
 
Freya
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Feb 19, 2002 9:47 pm

All in all I am inclined to think that this is probably a wind up. However, taking this individual at face value - whatever that might be - I wonder what the Manufacturers' Operations Manual of his aircraft type has to say on the subject of take off performance ? Of course, it seems likely that his opinion will prevail no matter what - which is the prerogative of 'the Operator'. It raises some rather exciting questions though on the issue of product liability.And I suppose the regulatory regime under which this individuals' carrier operates - if indeed there is an operation - have endorsed his or her somewhat challenging concepts of management philosophy? Haven't they?valeat quantum valere potest!
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 1:39 am

I can't think of any reason not to be able to do full thrust/hold the brakes on any a/c, particularly when it's rarely done to begin with. Many times in this industry, people do things think they're technically correct, when they aren't.

So, for 411A to condsider it bad form, with no valid reason, and demand that no one else does it, fits with his leadership style (or lack thereof).
 
mirrodie
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 4:26 am

Musang, thanks for your input. How is everything going? Hope all is well.

And thanks to all of you all for your input.

Amazing how a thread can take a turn for the worse, eh?

411A, I know NOTHING about your field. At the same time, I know about management/labor relations and one's bottom line.

I would look into your strategy a little closer.  Big thumbs up
It would translate to better relations with employees, increased productivity, well,... I think you know the rest. But merely barking out dogma (as it seems) is counterporductive.


Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
AAR90
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 5:58 am

>When you taxi up to the runway and turn onto it, do you normally
>hold the brakes while starting to spool up the engines and then
>let go?
>
>Or do you just turn on to the runway, line up and slowly
>advance the throttle?

AA's normal procedure is to perform a rolling takeoff. i.e. do not hold the brakes. That is not to say that pilots are forbidden from holding the brakes. Many locations _require_ holding the brakes! i.e. SNA.
In the end, it remains Captain's Authority what _technique_ he will utilize.

>Some airline video I've seen suggests that pilots will turn onto the
>runway, line up and hold the brakes. Then as the engines spool up,
>then let go and the a/c lurches forward.

Highly doubtful the engine spool up is to MAX power. Even at SNA we don't (normally can't) hold brakes at MAX power. We do spool them up quite a bit though. Big grin
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 7:34 am

We instruct our guys to do it OUR way...and strangly...they don't object. EXPERIENCE pays!
Paychecks don't bounce either.
Our DFO is retired DAL....superb fellow, and everyone respects same. If it ain't broke....don't fix it!
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:41 am

About a year ago, a topic
"How to Screw a 727 Crew in the Sim" popped up. The latter stages of this thread seem similar.
 
aerobalance
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:36 am

So what's the T/O procedure at SNA with a fully loaded MD-90, 5700' runway on a 85 deg. f. day w/ noise abatement procedures?
"Sing a song, play guitar, make it snappy..."
 
Guest

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 11:37 am

Hey guys…
Cut 411A some slack. I, for one, know exactly where he’s coming from. As a corporate pilot, we often operate out of “minimum” runways. Under those conditions, we have to set and stabilize the power then release the brakes. From a pilot’s perspective it’s great – the airplanes we operate accelerate and climb like “raped apes” however it can be very disconcerting for the passengers, especially the “white knuckled” ones. Whenever we are required to make this type of takeoff we always brief the passengers before we taxi out. Additionally, when we are flying with first time flyers in our corporate jets we also brief them on the deck angle that we will achieve. (We usually limit our deck angle to 30 degrees, again for passenger comfort.) I find that it’s usually sufficient to tell them that it will be a “real E ticket ride” and that it will also be smoother than any airliner that they’ve ever ridden on. Bottom line is that the name of the game is passenger comfort – they’re the ones that pay the bills regardless of the type of operation. What matters most is smoothness – in both control input and power changes. The one area where we differ the most is in braking after touchdown. Airline operators get on them and we usually just deploy the buckets and use enough braking to provide a comfortable deceleration on rollout (you wouldn’t want to spill the boss’s coffee.) If I were in 411A’s position I would do exactly the same thing.

Jetguy
 
Skystar
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:17 pm

Just out of interest, on the A340 you cannot go beyond 70N1 whilst holding on the brakes.

A lot of people report that the pilot "spooled up to takeoff thrust, holding on the brakes" & then zipped off. I'd be very, very surprised if a pilot held the brakes at actual takeoff thrust. At a stabilisation speed, yes, but not at takeoff thrust - that sound odd to me. Anyway, engines spool up to TO thrust very quickly from stabilisation N1.

Cheers,

Justin
 
L-188
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Wed Feb 20, 2002 9:39 pm

Keep in mind that everybody here seems to be focused on turbine powered airliners. Yes. I am aware that piston engines don't "spool up"


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Keep in mind that on a lot of the piston powered airliners, such as the BE-18, PA-18, PA-28, PA-31, C-206, C-207, C-402 ect.


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You can hold the brakes and goose the throttle before break releasing and rolling. You are also a lot more likely to find youself in a short runway situation where you are going to need that capablity then you are going to in a 737 or A-340.


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Before I get out of here I better give a specific example of a big aircraft that would run up to full power before starting to roll.

King Cove, Alaska is about 3300 feet long, gravel surface. Northern Air Cargo gets contract flights with the cannery there to fly salmon roe out. They can only fly out a half load due to the runway length. So they pick up half a load fly it to Cold Bay which is roughly 50 miles away and they fly back and pick up the rest of the load. Go back to Cold Bay get the 1/2 load they dumped off the airplane and they fly it the 550 miles to Anchorage.

Anyway in that situation with that airport you can damm well be sure they are running up those motors to power before releasing the brakes.

Could you imagine what would happen if one of them didn't come up on power in the middle of a rolling takeoff?


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OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Thu Feb 21, 2002 2:34 am

Well L-188, having flown DC-6B's many years ago, I can tell you for a fact that operators do not runup to full power with the brakes set on gravel runways....rather expensive repair bill on the Hamilton Standard 45E60 propellors would result.
The overhaul cost today is approximately $15,000 each including deice boots...not a small sum for many operators.
And as for "goosing the throttle"...not on large radial engines you don't, overhaul cost on an R-2800CB16 is now approaching $80,000.
In the airline business, care of your expensive equipment is very necessary....just ask the guys who have to sign the maintenance checks.
That is WHY pilot technique is very important, especially in small carriers.
 
JA54123
Posts: 128
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Thu Feb 21, 2002 3:19 am

I have seen pilots do it many ways. They will do it one of three ways. 1. They will spool the engines as they are turning using the inside brake to line up. 2. They will turn on to the runway and line up, then stop, and then spool the engines up before releasing the brakes. 3. They will turn onto the runway and without using the brakes and just spool the engines as they are rolling. It usually depends on how busy the airport they are operating from is or the length of the runway. At my home airport (Amarillo, TX) we have an unusally large runway and the pilots like for some reason to use the first method more often to take off.
You wouldn't understand, it's a Texas Thang!
 
WhiskeyNovembr
Posts: 96
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Fri Feb 22, 2002 5:44 am


411A isn't going to kill innocent passengers because of his takeoff techniques. He's going to kill them because of his "I'm captain, I'm God" philosophy.

He says that Air Florida flight 90 crashed because of the flight crew's lack of cold weather experience. This is true, and I actually agree with him. My point was that the crash could have been prevented with a competant captain at the controls. The captain chose not to recognize his first officer's input during the takeoff roll. Like 411A, he believed that the first officer's place was to obey the captain and otherwise shut up.

While running through the takeoff checklist, the following conversation took place:

FIRST OFFICER - Air conditioning and pressurization?

CAPTAIN - Set.

FIRST OFFICER - Engine anti-ice?

CAPTAIN - Off.

15:59:51 CAPTAIN - It's spooled. Real cold, real cold.

15:59:58 FIRST OFFICER - God, look at that thing. That don't seem right, does it? Uh, that's not right.

16:00:09 CAPTAIN - Yes it is, there's eighty.

16:00:10 FIRST OFFICER - Naw, I don't think that's right. Ah, maybe it is.

16:00:21 CAPTAIN - Hundred and twenty.

16:00:23 FIRST OFFICER - I don't know.

16:00:31 CAPTAIN - Vee-one. Easy, vee-two.


The first officer noticed that the engine EPR indications did not match the normal N1, and alerted the captain to this throughout the takeoff roll.

Then the captain drove the 737 into the water. Stay the hell away from the US, 411A. I don't want my family or friends to die on your airplane.



 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:18 am

Well WhiskeyNovember, you sound like someone who is mis-informed about large aircraft aircarrier line operations...when you grow up perhaps you will have learned a thing or two. Or maybe not.
And by the way, the Captain is not God, the DFO is in most companies, and if crew members do not operate the aeroplanes according to standard operating procedures laid down BY the company....they are asked to leave to work somewhere else...simple as that.
 
AAR90
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Fri Feb 22, 2002 7:35 am

>So what's the T/O procedure at SNA with a fully loaded MD-90,
>5700' runway on a 85 deg. f. day w/ noise abatement procedures?

Do a search, I've explained it a number of times. NO, you can NOT hold brakes under MAX power conditions. The airplane will not stay put. Too much power & too little runway surface friction.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
OldMan
Posts: 207
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T/O Query

Sat Feb 23, 2002 6:01 am

Just listen to all the experts! I agree completely with 411A and AAR90 just to mention a few. I have not posted here is some time for the simple reason perhaps 90% have no clue what they are talking about. There are many way's to "skin a cat" some may be better than others. I always operated my aircraft using SCS, Safety was first, Comfort second place and Schedule was last. With over 38 years of just airline flying and other flying before that I have learned a lot from my Captains when I was in the right seat and have also learned from some F/O's I have flown with. Humm, let's break down "Expert" Ex= a has been, and a "spert" is a drip under pressure.  Smile Fly safe men and above all learn from some of these more experienced aviators.
Just had to put in my 2 cents worth, now back to my cave. Regards, Oldman
BTW, with over 32,000hrs. I have never seen anyone hold brakes under power. You will be airborne quicker with a rolling take off.
 
musang
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RE: T/O Query

Sun Feb 24, 2002 3:55 am

Quote from the Avro 146/RJ Manufacturers Ops Manual page 9-10-1-1, 12 Feb '96 -

"Take off power should be set before releasing the brakes unless field length and obstacle clearance margins permit a rolling start, or high surface wind conditions require modified engine handling".

It will be off the ground in less distance because the entire ground roll is at take-off thrust.

We are required (by company SOPs) to set t/o thrust on the brakes if the weight is within 2000 kgs of RTOW, or if specific procedures for a "difficult" airport demand it (Innsbruck, Chambery, Sion etc. which are all in valleys).

Unless we're on compacted snow the brakes have no trouble holding it.

Regards - Musang
 
411A
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sun Feb 24, 2002 7:35 am

Ah yes, a British design...the four engine wonder...perhaps this is why they don't make it anymore. Is THIS the same bird that FLAMES OUT all four in higher altitude icing? Called "engine rundown" I believe....
 
Freya
Posts: 40
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 9:19 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 25, 2002 4:49 am

411A : Just a question : remind me of the provenance of these power units and where you yourself are sitting ? Have a nice day.....
 
musang
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Mon Feb 25, 2002 5:09 am

411 if you were making a point, I'm afraid I missed it. I simply thought some other people would be interested in take-off procedures, as per the original question.

As far as I know the 146 series and derivatives were axed for commercial /economic reasons, i.e. they were too expensive to be competitive.

I'm not aware that production stopped because (a) it was British, or (b) it had four engines.

I agree with you though, it is wonderful. We love it, apart from the APU reliability.

The engine rundown problem was on the 146 series, as opposed to the Avro RJ derivatives. 146s are now, I believe (never flown one) limited to FL 250 or 260 in icing conditions. Not a major hindrance though, the original design brief called for a short haul machine which rarely ventured that high anyway.

Reminds me of the early CFM56 powered 737s, which kept flaming out in rain.

The RJ series are cleared up to FL350 with the digital pressurisation mod., with no icing restrictions.

I know we're off the subject, but I thought I'd clear up your misunderstandings.

Regards - Musang

what?? sarcasm???
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sat Mar 02, 2002 2:23 pm

Damn, great thread!  Big thumbs up

And Musang, I appreciate you're telling it straight.

Thanks to you all.

411A: I beg you to tell me what line you supposedly work for. Our lives may depend on it.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
cricri
Posts: 540
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RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sat Mar 02, 2002 11:50 pm

and..... until what Thrust ratio are brakes able to hold the aircraft? I mean, if full power is applied will the plane still be kept at a complete stop?
 
SkyGuy11
Posts: 532
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:09 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sun Mar 03, 2002 7:14 am

I fly GA planes out of SNA and I commonly see them spool up while holding the brakes prior to takeoff. This is important because of the 5400' (or so) runway 19R/1L.
.
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sun Mar 03, 2002 8:13 am

Mirrodie, why do you want to know? I do not "work" for the airline, I manage it...and do ALL of the flight crew hiring.
Are you qualified perhaps? If you have "the right stuff" you might be considered...then again, maybe not.
Rest assured....the procedures adopted have my complete approval...and the approval of the regulatory authority concerned.
You sound like a "junior" birdman", lots of so-called knowledge, but little practical experience.
Still, everyone has to learn sometime....wonder if you will succeed?
 
Theiler
Posts: 576
Joined: Sat Nov 03, 2001 8:39 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sun Mar 03, 2002 11:15 am

411A, I sincerely hope that your managerial skills aren't as marginal as your apparent people skills. While you are certainly very knowledgeable, the pompous tone to your posts reflects very poorly upon you.

For what it's worth, I wouldn't post the name of my employer either.
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: T/O Query

Sun Mar 03, 2002 11:40 am

Agreed, Oldman. Except for the part where you tell only the men to fly safe; there are plenty of women in the cockpit, now. Just between us old codgers, is there anything better looking than a blonde ponytail under a headset in the left seat?
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Sun Mar 03, 2002 11:54 am

One more thing, Oldman. Like you, I'd never accept a "position and hold" on a short field and then blast gravel at the empenage while standing on the brakes. I found that a "Negative, sir, we'll take it out rolling from here" was always a better option.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Mar 05, 2002 6:44 am

>...until what Thrust ratio are brakes able to hold the aircraft?

You need to talk with the manufacturer about their test data to find this out.

>I mean, if full power is applied will the plane still be
>kept at a complete stop?

For most commercial airliners under most circumstances, no.

>I fly GA planes out of SNA and I commonly see them spool up
>while holding the brakes prior to takeoff.

"Spool up" is not the same as holding brakes under full thrust condition. AA's B737 procedure is to hold brakes while spooling up engines to 40% N1. Then press TO/GA switch while releasing brakes. With both engines about evenly powered (that's why you spool them up, to prevent differential power application), they'll reach 100% N1 within one plane length's distance.

>This is important because of the 5400' (or so) runway 19R/1L.

5700' and the procedure is to clear the noise monitors south of the runway with as much height and lowest power setting as possible. It's a noise procedure thing, not a runway limiting thing. i.e. 01L departures have no such limitations/special procedures.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
cricri
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Oct 02, 1999 12:10 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Mar 05, 2002 10:06 pm

Tx AAR90 for your reply.  Smile
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: For Airline Pilots Please: A Specific T/O Query.

Tue Mar 05, 2002 10:41 pm

Musang and AAR90, thanks for your detailed insights.

411A, quit talking out of your arrogant derriere. "I do not "work" for the airline, I manage it"- Get a grip on reality. You work for an airline. Face it, you serve a higher authority. Hey, I see patients everyday and I WORK for them. I serve them.

"Are you qualified perhaps?...junior birdman?... If you have "the right stuff" you might be considered...then again, maybe not.....wonder if you will succeed?"
Well, where did you get that garbage? Since you seem bent on talking down to others, so here it is. I'm just a lowlife doctor wannabe pilot (least that's what you'd like to think, right?) Talk about the "Right Stuff"? I have what I need to treat my patients the best way.

I ask questions here b/c I know not the answers. You are right in one thing. I have no experience here and ask questions only to gain knowledge. My lifelong commitment to learn (not just medical subjects) covers many hobbies, of which aviation is one.

Then every once in a while, you run into a fool like you who looks to feel better about himself by talking down to others.

Well, seems like that's the 411 on 411A.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st

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