Soku39
Topic Author
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:25 pm


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Peter Unmuth - Vienna Aviation Photography



As I look at this panel I see no back-up vacuum run gauges. I thought a set of backups were recquired on all flightdecks or am I severely mistaken?
The Ohio Player
 
air2gxs
Posts: 1443
Joined: Mon Jun 18, 2001 1:29 pm

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:32 pm

As long as the requirement for redundancy is satisfied, any type of instrument is allowed.

 
Soku39
Topic Author
Posts: 1731
Joined: Fri Nov 03, 2000 7:16 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:35 pm

Which is obviously what Dornier was aiming for....
The Ohio Player
 
DG_pilot
Posts: 810
Joined: Tue Sep 07, 1999 10:21 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:47 pm

That is the ugliest flight deck I have ever seen.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3961
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 12:51 pm

In the cockpit engineer's meeting:

"HEY!! I GOT A GREAT IDEA!!! WE'LL MAKE IT BLUE!!!"


Sweet cockpit though. I like the airbus grey or boeing tan better.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
b767-400er
Posts: 384
Joined: Wed Apr 05, 2000 11:07 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:00 pm

IMO, this cockpit looks alright, other then the yoke which looks like a thing out of a 3 year old's play set, and the lack of things (switches, etc.) on the side panels. I don't know, just, like it's missing something being so empty.

BTW, is that a parking brake handle on the captain-side center padestal? It looks better then the "T" style turn knob found in many others.

Tony,
B767-400er
 
Guest

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 1:11 pm

No vacuum gauges in any turbine powered airplane that I've ever flown. All primary and standby instruments were electric - powered by different power sources.
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 3:07 pm

This is a fake of some kind. Not only is there no redundant AI or HSI, the yokes are differentially displaced. I think that the Transylvania Nightmare Blue is cute, though  Nuts.
 
TechRep
Posts: 1877
Joined: Sun Jan 13, 2002 6:53 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Tue Mar 26, 2002 4:48 pm

Remember a few things here, the yoke, transition and rudder pedals are all from a Do328, it is my guess that this will change. In concept drawings they looked different so it is my guess they were not ready so they used Do328 stuff to get ready for rollout. This is basically how the cockpit will look but there are some things still to be added. The yokes are not differently placed it just has the illusion one is set higher. You will notice no chronometers and Standby Attitude Indicator and Standby Compass are present in digital format in the middle

You will notice as well three FMS units, however the FMS and RMU are incorporated into one unit now, so radios, TCAS, ADF, etc will all be tuned/selected through those units. As you transition down you will notice cursor control devices for GUI interface with the EFIS system. Next audio selection panels and notice the start panel for engines is behind the throttles with no fuel selection knobs, auto start sequencing, none needed.

Like any all digital cockpit there is no brilliance when it is off. Wait till you power up the PRIMUS EPIC avionics suite that's when things get interesting. I like the cockpit but the blue doesn't look as good as it did on the Do328.

TechRep
 
jsuen
Posts: 204
Joined: Tue Aug 14, 2001 2:36 pm

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Wed Mar 27, 2002 2:59 am

A number of new airliners use an electronic HSI standby (or Integrated Standby Instrument System in Airbus terms), including the 717, A340-600, 318, and to a certain extent the 777. The instrument is there, the small square display right under the middle of the glareshield.


Click for large version
Click here for full size photo!

Photo © Ryan Gaddis


 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:18 am

The statement:

"As long as the requirement for redundancy is satisfied, any type of instrument is allowed."

Is wrong. There are more standards and regulations at play here than is obvious. You can't just "fill the hole" with anything.

Large aircraft must meet the requirements of FAR 25. The standard that requires the standby instruments is FAR 25.1333(b) which reads:

(b) The equipment, systems, and installations must be designed so that one display of the information essential to the safety of flight which is provided by the instruments, including attitude, direction, airspeed, and altitude will remain available to the pilots, without additional crewmember action, after any single failure or combination of failures that is not shown to be extremely improbable.

Extremely Impropable is accepted to represent 1 failure in a billion flight hours. That means the occurance of complete loss of attitude or altitude or airspeed indications must be extremely remote.

The failure rate is calculated by using actual failure data available from the manufacturer of the components. Until recently, no electronic instrument was capable of meeting the failure criteria so "standard steam driven" instruments were used. Some only find their way into cockpits because the basic airplane enjoys triple redundancy for the subject systems.

So, the short answer is that you can use electronic standby instruments to meet the rule only if you can acheive the same required criticality.

One last note, the term "vacuum driven" is causing confusion. Airspeed instruments measure differential pressure between the pitot and static air sources. Altimeters measure static pressure. These instruments are NOT "vacuum driven".

However, SOME gyro horizons are driven pneumatically (vaccum or pressure), and many others are driven electrically. A power source is needed to spin the gyro(s).

 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:25 am

One more clarification: An HSI is a Horizontal Situation Indicator. It provides navigation data consisting of a combination of heading, selected course, course error and vertical deviation. Some also include a distance display, a bearing pointer and additional navigation information.

The integrated standby instrument shown in the 777 photo is commonly refered to as an ISIS or Integrated Standby Instrument System. It displays attitude, airspeed and altitude, and can be configured to overlay some navigation data. It certainly is NOT an HSI.
 
VC-10
Posts: 3546
Joined: Tue Oct 26, 1999 11:34 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Wed Mar 27, 2002 3:54 am

I would say the Stby insts in the photo will be contained on the small black screen in the centre top of the panel.
 
wingscrubber
Posts: 806
Joined: Fri Sep 07, 2001 1:38 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Wed Mar 27, 2002 4:35 am

I believe that cockpit photo is a mockup, so it may lack some of the final backup instruments to be added, look through the windows, there's floods of people looking at it...some airshow publicity job.

The Dornier 728 is brand-spanking new kit; this from Janes civil aircraft : The 728 jet will make it's first flight in 2001. Certification and first delivery of the 728 jet is scheduled for early 2003. Certification and first delivery of the 928 jet is scheduled for feb 2004.

Pete
Resident TechOps Troll
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Back Up Gages No Longer Recquired?

Thu Mar 28, 2002 8:10 am

Wingscrubber,

VC-10 is correct. The little screen is the electronic standby instrument. Check out these sites for more information:

http://www.thales-avionics.com/jrun_avionics2/docs/sextant/eng/dco/pdf/esi.pdf

http://www.goodrichavionics.com/docs/gh3000.html

Thales (was Sextant) and Goodrich (was BFG) are the only 2 manufacturers that I know of that make these things.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 13 guests

Popular Searches On Airliners.net

Top Photos of Last:   24 Hours  •  48 Hours  •  7 Days  •  30 Days  •  180 Days  •  365 Days  •  All Time

Military Aircraft Every type from fighters to helicopters from air forces around the globe

Classic Airliners Props and jets from the good old days

Flight Decks Views from inside the cockpit

Aircraft Cabins Passenger cabin shots showing seat arrangements as well as cargo aircraft interior

Cargo Aircraft Pictures of great freighter aircraft

Government Aircraft Aircraft flying government officials

Helicopters Our large helicopter section. Both military and civil versions

Blimps / Airships Everything from the Goodyear blimp to the Zeppelin

Night Photos Beautiful shots taken while the sun is below the horizon

Accidents Accident, incident and crash related photos

Air to Air Photos taken by airborne photographers of airborne aircraft

Special Paint Schemes Aircraft painted in beautiful and original liveries

Airport Overviews Airport overviews from the air or ground

Tails and Winglets Tail and Winglet closeups with beautiful airline logos