mirrodie
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Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:02 am

I'm sure I am not the only one that, when flying, imagines themselves as flying a bigger bird, right?

I just have always wondered why the makers of smaller planes such as Cessnas don't have the throttle the same way that the jets do. (or for that matter, like the Navajo does.)

Just a thought for future flight models.

But am I the only one that feels that way?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
PPGMD
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:29 am

Cheaper is the reason that I would guess.

Most Pipers have the traditional throttle, along with the modern Beechcrafts. It really depends on what the manufactor wanted to put on it.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
SkyGuy11
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:31 am

Fly a Diamond Katana! Feel that 125hp engine power under the hood!  Big thumbs up
.
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:41 am

Hello Mirrodie.

You're not alone. A sexier throttle in the cockpit of Cessna 152's & 172's, etc, would be nice. Those small round knobs (the throttle) with their friction locks don't exactly make you feel powerful. They feel rather simple, but I guess that's all that is needed...so why make it more complicated? From a mechanical view.

The small throttle quadrant on Piper Cherokee's isn't bad. The PA-28's have similar engine power as Cessna singles though, so I guess it's just Piper's preference.

I think the throttles in a Piper Navajo let you know you're in control of a larger, more powerful machine.

Cessna Skyhawk
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Piper Cherokee
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Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 9:49 am

Well, having been raised on Cessnas, I have no issues with the way their throttles are. I fly a Cessna 172 S, among others, and I assure you that you can feel all 180 of it's horsepower with the throttle in the "old" style.

Also, I thought it worthy of mention that Mooneys, some of the fastest single-engine airplanes out there, have throttles just like the Cessnas, and that includes those Mooneys that are rolling off the assembly line right now. Come on, guys. A throttle is a throttle.
 
Mr Spaceman
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:05 am

That's true NormalSpeed, a throttle is a throttle. I agree. It's design can't change how much horsepower is at your fingertips. However, I also understand what Mirrodie is curious about.

Chris  Smile
"Just a minute while I re-invent myself"
 
Continental
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:13 am

I would also guess cost. I know that the Cessna I fly at Anoka has a little stick with a flat grey knob at the end. I can't wait till I get to use the throttles like on the 747's!

Continental
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 12:06 pm

The Cessna throttle makes it very easy to make small power changes without looking at the throttle, a real plus on an ILS. You can adjust the friction lock while your hand is on the throttle and it is easy to see throttle "creep."
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 12:25 pm

Simplicity. Try changing the throttle cable on a Piper. You will cuss the brain dead engineer that came up with it. Then change the throttle cable on a Cessna. 1/2 hour later you are flying again.
 
tt737fo
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 2:02 pm

>>>"Then change the throttle cable on a Cessna. 1/2 hour later you are flying again."

Bullshit. I just replaced the throttle cable on a friend's 172 last month. (The cable broke during our runup--what luck). It takes at least 1/2 hour to take the cowling apart. As I recall, it took about 1 hour to replace the throttle and cable itself (including adjustment time). From there it took 1 hour to get the cowling back on (the lower half is an ornery bitch). All told it was close to a 3 hour deal. Not really a model of simplicity. BTW we didn't fly right away again because we each drank a six pack in the hangar afterwards from being worn out.

Yet the Cessnas are really a model in simplicity--at least design wise. The construction of the panel, firewall and engine mounting make sense to have the cable attached by a knob right on the panel. It's easy to manage power, and it really is easy to fly IFR without making excess movements with head and arms--thereby throwing off equilibrium.
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:01 pm

I have watched you pilots try to be mechanics and it is a true exercise in hilarity. Just because a bumbling flyboy can't change it quickly, doesn't mean it is difficult. I once watched a pilot try to change his spark plugs with a pair of vise grips. I don't even own vise grips. Go back to what you know how to do, leave the maintenance to us.
 
PPGMD
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 3:31 pm

I found that its best to at least learn the basics. One of my friends is an IA, I make sure to be around him alot when hes working on the planes. Just helping him out teachs me alot about the basics on working on them.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
cosync
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 4:47 pm

yeh im 15 and im a bit of a mechanic myself. did work experience at the local aero club hangar a while back and knew heaps. The other day i had a real test though, the lawnmowert conked out so i fixed it Smile
i was quite happy.
 
erj-145mech
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Fri Apr 05, 2002 10:35 pm

The reason that Pipers have a quadrant and Cessna's don't is that Piper, in its design, is preparing pilots for advancement to higher performance type aircraft that have power quadrants, ie Navajo's. Multi engined aircraft have quadrants because it's easier for power adjustments on more than one engine with one hand.

Dave
Continental Express Airlines
Knoxville, TN
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:01 am

I have watched you pilots try to be mechanics and it is a true exercise in hilarity. Just because a bumbling flyboy can't change it quickly, doesn't mean it is difficult. I once watched a pilot try to change his spark plugs with a pair of vise grips. I don't even own vise grips. Go back to what you know how to do, leave the maintenance to us.

As a flyboy, I can say that I completely agree.
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 12:22 am

I apologize for my pissy tone, but it galls me at times when someone with no true experience tells me that he knows everything about my job. I would not presume to tell him it's not so tough to shoot a NDB approach to minimums with 40 knot wind shears. While I may be a weekend flyboy, I don't have that type of experience. On days like that, I stay home so I can't tell him what that is like or how hard it should be. By the same token, as an experienced AMT, in my judgement a throttle cable change on a Cessna can be done with ease with one hand tied behind my back.
 
dragogoalie
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 1:49 am

I hate the throttles on the Cessna. They're a pain cause you can't really rest your hand on them like you can on the piper. The piper one moves smoother too and is easier to fine tune. Not to mention it just looks cooler  Wink/being sarcastic. In fact, now that I think about it, I don't like cessna much...

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
pmk
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 3:38 am

Okay guys let the Piper vs. Cessna fight start! Personally after flying both I love the Warrior and hate the Cessna. I find the Piper flies more like a "real" airplane and it is designed as a trainer, where the Cessna is a trainer designed to train you to fly a Cessna for the rest of your career. As I am making the transition from my PPL to a A complex High power (for my new Pilatus, but that's another post) I will tell you the Piper was better for all around training than the Cessna. That being said I do like the Piper throttle better because the lack of friction locks makes it easier to get the right throttle position without having to get close and then see how much the lock is going to move the throttle rod.

Peter
 
FredT
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 6:29 am

I think the Cessnas were designed to fill the 50s vision of a car that can fly. This would go a bit towards explaining the for aviation rather atypical instrument panel design.

Cheers,
/Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Illini_152
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:39 am

Ah... lets not get into this one now. I presume most of this is Cessna tricycle gear single vs. the PA28 line?

1. High-lift wing. The Cessna wing is much more suited for high-lift, high AoA flight. Stalls much slower than a typical Piper product. Makes 'em better short field planes. Looking at the book for the stock '73 Skylane that I fly stalls at 55 mph; it can get in and out of a 1000' strip with trees on either end with ease at gross.

2. 2 doors; if I go in off airport, I've got a second way out of the plane. If the right wing on a PA28 folds up, you're pretty much screwed.

3. Barn doors. Flaps are incredibly effective compared to the tiny little things on PA28 series.

Now, I do like the Pipers for somethings. They are generally quicker than a comperable Cessna product. They are differant planes with differant purposes; the Piper is like that little coupe or sedan. The Cessna is like your pickup truck.

BTW- not all Pipers are bad; I just LOVE the J3, PA18, well, most all the ragwing pipers. (BTW, early Cherokee 140's had the knobs.) And also, my time is about evenly split between Cessna singles and Cherokee products.
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 8:53 am

I hate the throttles on the Cessna. They're a pain cause you can't really rest your hand on them like you can on the piper. The piper one moves smoother too and is easier to fine tune.

Huh. That's funny. Someone forgot to mention it to me, because I've been resting my hand on the Cessna throttle most of my flying career. And anyone who has any type of experience in a Cessna knows that you can easily "fine tune" the throttle setting by adjusting the throttle with your index finger touching the stop. Try that in a Piper.

Now, lest anyone think me anti-Piper, I have to say that I love flying the Archer. Also, I have about 20 hours in a Cherokee 140, and I think it's a really fun airplane. But as far as the strenghts of Cessna, I'm with Illini_152.

'Speed
 
ThirtyEcho
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sat Apr 06, 2002 11:48 am

Geewhillikers, I can adjust the RPM on a 172 within 25 RPM without even looking at either the throttle OR the RPM gage. I can make the appropriate power reduction after an IMC takeoff in a C210 with three little twists of the wrist without looking at the throttle or the MP gage. Not likely to get vertigo from that like I might from looking down/up/over/down. I can understand the "throttle quadrant" fantasy but please try to confine that Walter Mitty stuff to Microsoft Flightsim.

As for no friction lock, Hah! Just wait until the throttle creeps back on you on a dark night IMC climbout.
 
Illini_152
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sun Apr 07, 2002 4:41 am

Oh, forgot one HUGE benefit of the Cessna-style throttles that I figured out on my way up to Oshkosh last year.

Out of a 5:30am takeoff, still had quite a bit of coffee left. Found out with the prop and mixture set just right for 24"/2400 150 rich of peak at 4500 in the Skylane, a McDonald's coffee cup fits PERFECTLY between the throttle and prop controls. The cessna cup holder.

take a look:
http://www.students.uiuc.edu/~momalley/SkylaneCupholder.JPG
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
mirrodie
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sun Apr 07, 2002 5:03 am

Wow. Thanks for the interesting responses. I just thought I was the only one that thought it.

Normal SPeed- Re: the throttle i s throttle remark, I understand that completely but was wondering why, if that's what consumers 'might' want, most planes just didn;t have the same functional throttle. I mean, the same argument could be said of cars right? But where are 99% of the throttles found, nes pas?

Illini_152- Now thats a pitch for Cessna if I ever saw one! LOL  Nuts You may find a very cooshy job in Cessna's advertising dept!
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sun Apr 07, 2002 9:39 am

Normal SPeed- Re: the throttle i s throttle remark, I understand that completely but was wondering why, if that's what consumers 'might' want, most planes just didn;t have the same functional throttle. I mean, the same argument could be said of cars right? But where are 99% of the throttles found, nes pas?

Hmm.... At first blush, I would have thought it was closer to 60%. I'll have to check on that.
 
SkyGuy11
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sun Apr 07, 2002 10:45 am

Yes, they specifically calibrated the prob and throttle controls for that purpose lllini_152.
.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sun Apr 07, 2002 5:02 pm

Interesting comparison weve got going here... i teach in both the PA28 Archer II and the C-172. After hundreds of hours in both, I am sold on the Archer. I can outperform the 172 in all areas easily with the Archer. What the Archer lacks in drag from its flaps (which really stick out there), it makes up for by being able to slip with the flaps deployed. If you can see the field you can land on it...and stop in a few hundred feet. When the approach is flown just right, Ive successfully stopped the Archer in under 200 feet before on several occasions. Once the normal landing technique is acheived, it is much easier to get a consistent grease job landing in the Archer as opposed to the Cessna (maybe its that i dont get to fly the Cessna quite as much)- and they are much better in crosswinds. The Archer outclimbs the Cessna by 500 feet per minute on most days. Also breakout/overhead manuevers and short vertical climbouts are a cinch in the Archer (as long as no more than 2 people in it) where as those are hardly possible in the Cessna, and the vertical climbout is not near vertical.

I like the throttles more in the Archer too...but it is a different technique than the Cessna (very similar to what you do on multi-engine aircraft, just instead of anchoring your hand on the other throttle you anchor it on the quadrant base). Also the archer DOES have a friction lock, contrary to what has been said on here. Every piper i have ever flown (from the archer to the Nava-slow) has a friction lock.

That's my input on the subject.  Smile Now give me a Cessna 150 Aerobat and i will stop ranting as much about cessnas.. that is a sweet sweet airplane. Welp.. see ya later.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Illini_152
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Sun Apr 07, 2002 5:21 pm

OK, that Archer/Skyhawk comparison just ain't a fair one. You're comparing the climb performance of a 150-160hp airplane to that of a 180 hp airplane. Of course it will get more feet per minute.

The Skyhawk though, while having a similar gross weight, has a stall speed 15 knots slower thant the Archer, and you CAN slip any highwing cessna with flaps; how do you think you land in a crosswind? It just says "Avoid slips with full flaps" not "Slips with flaps prohibited"

And I'm calling BS on the 200 ft remark, unless that's with a headwind. A Supercub can't get down and stopped in 200' without any wind.

You want a fair comparison, go with the Warrrior 150 vs. 172. The warrior will carry either the same or 100 lbs less, take 15% more runway, and cruise about 5-7 kts faster on a given fuel burn. And this is what I personally have observerd in numerous differant planes.

In all honesty, its Ford vs. Chevy though. Whatever you learned in you're going to side with and think is better. (Ever seen a low-winged bushplane though?)
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:09 am

As much as I love Cessnas for their familiarity...

Let's compare the newer Cessna 172 SPs with the Archer, since they are both 180 h.p. And even though I was raised in Cessnas, if I had to choose either a 172 SP or an Archer to buy, I'd pick the Archer without much ado. Why? Well, because it would be a better airplane for my purposes, (except for the cup-holder part). But I'll tell you this much, my decision wouldn't be based on what type of throttle each airplane has.

'Speed
 
mirrodie
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 12:21 am

"(except for the cup-holder part). But I'll tell you this much, my decision wouldn't be based on what type of throttle each airplane has"

Thoroughly agreed. However, if you think back, even the cup holders that were non-existent on certain European cars are now at least offered. So I just wanted to know if that was one consumer command.

Either way, thanks for the insights. BTW, I'm cessna/piper neutral.

Normal- 60%? Please tell me your being sarcastic.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
pmk
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:56 am

I agree, my decision on aircraft does not hinge on the placement, type, color, weight, or taste of the throttle  Smile. I just prefer the Piper. BTW all pilatus aircraft are certified for rough field ops, even the PC-12 and the PC-9. Welcome to a low wing bush plane.

Peter
 
DG_pilot
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 9:45 am

I am nuetral as well. And bickering about which throttle is better is plain stupid. Those who say one is absolutely better because it has a "big jet feel" need to stay on the flight sim.
 
Ralgha
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like

Mon Apr 08, 2002 10:44 am

I'm gonna have to back up XFSUgimpLB41X against Illini_152 here on the short field bit. A Super Cub can stop on a dime, and I can get an Arrow down and stopped in a few hundred feet, and an Archer is easier to stop faster than an Arrow. Though I prefer the Cutlass RG over the Arrow, the Arrow flies like a dump truck, the Cutlass, by comparison, is a sports car.

 Big thumbs up
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
dragogoalie
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:38 pm

As for no friction lock, Hah! Just wait until the throttle creeps back on you on a dark night IMC climbout.

Thats why you keep your hand on the throttle during climbout and approach. In response to resting my hand on the throttle of the cessna, I guess it was that I would rather rest my hand on the throttle quadrant, rather than on a thin metal post sticking out that it is possible to bend. Another reason I like the piper cadet/warrior much better is because once you commence a turn, you can actually see where you are going. That high wing is a pain in the ass in my opinion. Not to mention refueling takes nothing short of an acrobat trying to climb up there (if there is no ladder)

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
Ralgha
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 1:56 pm

That's why you buy a Cessna with skylights and make all your turns at 60 degrees or greater.  Big thumbs up
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
dragogoalie
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:10 pm

lol, yeah, that woudl be fun  Wink/being sarcastic

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 2:46 pm

Funny... I have worked in the Bush in Alaska for years and almost no one flies Piper singles out here. Why? They don't hold up. The 180, 185, 206, 207 and 208 are MUCH better platforms for rough field operations. Not too mention not nearly do maintenance intensive. Piper gear can't take it, and the Hershey bar wing sucks for short muddy field work. Don't use the rough field Archer argument... no one really uses an Archer for that.
 
Illini_152
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 3:02 pm

Allright, I'll give you 500 foot ground roll in the Arrow MAYBE with good technique and smoking the brakes with one person in it, dragging in in with the stall horn blaring.

Thing is, you AIN'T getting it off in 500' at gross, that's for darned sure. Every chart I've looked at (C152, C172N, C172R, C182, PA28-151, PA28-181, PA28R-201, and PA28RT-201) reflects this claim, and my personal experience backs it up too.

Cherokee's are great in cruise, but they're runway hogs.

The most accurate comparison I could find was a -151 vs. 172R. The Warrior gives up 10 hp to the new Skyhawk, but the new hawk weighs in 125 lbs heavier than the Warrior at gross. The power loadings are almost the same, but the Skyhawk will need 120 feet less to get off the ground, and 90 feet less to reach 50'.

We go worst case, the highest I could get the performance charts was 7000' and 0C. Worst case is the Warrior with nearly 4700' to get to 50'. The Hawk will take 3100' The right tool for the job; if I'm cruising IFR with one other person for 2 hours, I'll probibly go with a Cherokee, its quicker, and holds more gas. If I'm taking 3 or more out of a short strip, I'd go with the Cessna. And if I needed to utilize the back seat for an adult for any length of time, I'd go with a Cessna.

That said and done, I'd take the Supercub over all of 'em as long as I didn't need to get anywhere in a hurry with more than one person. Then give me the Skylane with the Texas Skyways O-520 conversion. Hehehe- 280' groundroll with 1100 lbs of payload (at least thats what they're claiming if we get ours done...)

-Mike
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Mon Apr 08, 2002 3:21 pm

hehe... props to Ralgha. Sorry it took me so long to update my respected list, bro.

Yes.. it is very possible to land an Archer in 200 feet. It is necessary to have about a 5 knot headwind and only a crew of 2 in the plane.... but i have done it on a number of occasions with relative ease.
I fly turbo saratoga's all the time for charters down here.... now they definitely dont have near as good short field performance as their 1000 pound lighter siblings, but can go 70 knots faster. As you move into the complex aircraft, short field performance seems to reduce pretty quickly, especially in the Piper line. I havent really had much of a chance to goof in the Saratoga too much because we usually have passengers on board and are going for smoothness as opposed to landing performance... but i can usually stop the King Air 200 in around 1000 feet or less in a calm situation (plopping her down at 80 knots and then max reverse on the props-makes a huge difference having the reversers).. which is about what youre going to get in a Saratoga usually with alot of effort-

Like Ralgha said.. the complex Pipers are comparable to driving an F150 or Explorer-alot of fun and will haul a load, but just arent the most manueverable things out there (we start slowing down 60 miles out in the turbo-saratoga). Ive never had the opportunity to fly a complex Cessna, so cant really comment on that area.


As far as the slip aspect is concerned, i thought it was obvious i was talking about forward slips as opposed to side slips (crosswind landing slips). Ive personally never really liked the way Cessna 172's land... but have always loved the way 150's and 152's do.

Off to dreamland for me. Good night yall.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
mirrodie
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Tue Apr 09, 2002 2:06 am

Getting back from the way off tangent...

Those of you "bickering" about it have issues.

I just wanted to know the reasons behind certain designs. In that respect, thans to all and Apathoid especially for your 2 cents.
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Tue Apr 09, 2002 10:36 am

If you are stopping your King Air in less than 1000 feet then your chief pilot AND your mechanic ought to be kicking you square in the nuts. There is almost never a need in normal operations to abuse your poor airplane that way. No one who truly understands aircraft is impressed with that kind of behavior. It causes undue wear and tear on gear, brakes, props, engines and so on.... I hope you never work somewhere I do. I HATE guys like you.
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Tue Apr 09, 2002 11:08 am

I've got to agree with Apathoid on the braking thing. I'm sure you can stop the KA within 1000 feet, but braking that hard and going that deep into beta will increase your maintenance costs significantly and unnecessarily. Brake overhauls aren't cheap and I can only imagine what your props look like. Personally, I try to "roll it to the end" when ever I can. Sure there are times then it's not cool to have so much "runway time", but most of the time it's OK. I like to do everything possible to give the PAX a nice smooth ride - from takeoff to rollout. (Do I practice "short field" landings? Yes, but only a couple of times per year to maintain proficiency. The Astra has good brakes, I can come in and bring it to a full stop in about 1,800. However, I would NEVER do it with passengers on board.)

A major benefit to operating the airplane this way is that your brakes will last for an extremely long time and propellor erosion is greatly reduced. Now's the time to learn this lesson - when maintenance costs get too high airplanes are sold and when airplanes are sold pilots are sent packing.

Jetguy
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Tue Apr 09, 2002 3:20 pm

Hey man.. its not like we do it everyday.... just goofing off on a dead leg (yeah lets toss the passengers through the cockpit door)-and weve only done it a couple times. It really didnt take it that deep into beta anyways. By the way.. the captain is the cheif pilot. This airplane has been flying for 15 years with our company... we take EXTREMELY good care of it... it is very babied. The props are in great condition (as always... we usually land on 12,000 foot runways and just roll with light beta range), as are the brakes. It's amazing how from one post people think they know everything about the operating procedures for a company.  Laugh out loud
Chicks dig winglets.
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Wed Apr 10, 2002 5:43 am

but i can usually stop the King Air 200 in around 1000 feet or less

What did I misinterpret about that statement?


just goofing off on a dead leg

Not too hard to figure out that one either. You are a cowboy and cowboys make bad pilots. Could you please share who you work for so I can add that to my list of "don't fly with these clowns" places please?


 
Ralgha
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:07 am

Oh, so a guy that goofs off on a dead leg occasionally is a cowboy and a bad pilot? I happen to have a friend that is about the safest pilot that I've ever met, yet even he "goofs off" occasionally. What he does isn't "unsafe", he knows exactly what he is doing and where his limits are. Hell, his normal cargo runs are more dangerous than when he's goofing off.

Aren't you the one who said don't talk about it if you don't know about it?
09 F9 11 02 9D 74 E3 5B D8 41 56 C5 63 56 88 C0
 
Guest

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Wed Apr 10, 2002 7:47 am

Come on guys, I'll give XFSUgimpLB41X the benefit of the doubt here. I admit to taking his comment "...but i can usually stop the King Air 200 in around 1000 feet or less in a calm situation (plopping her down at 80 knots and then max reverse on the props-makes a huge difference having the reversers)..." to mean that he did this on a regular basis. This perception was what I, personally, was basing my comments on. However, I stand behind my original comments - if he does it as a SOP then I'll take issue with it for all of the reasons that Apathoid and I mentioned. As far as doing it occassionally, I personally agree with that. I do it in the Astras and the Galaxy and I did it in every other turbine-powered airplane that I've ever flown; but like I also said, only occassionally and only without PAX on board. As I mentioned earlier, a pilot needs to do it to keep his proficiency up. It's pretty easy to let yourself get sloppy when you fly out of a 10,300' runway on a daily basis. We operate out of several airports with runway lengths between 4,000' and 5,000'. While a 4,000' runway is not an issue with most propellor-driven aircraft, under many conditions, it can be marginal with turbojets. I don't consider a pilot fully "captain qualified" until he/she can demonstrate the ability to do this on a consistant basis.

Jetguy
 
apathoid
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Wed Apr 10, 2002 9:08 am

Oh, so a guy that goofs off on a dead leg occasionally is a cowboy and a bad pilot?

Aren't you the one who said don't talk about it if you don't know about it?

I am fully qualified to talk about this. I am the one who has to file and repaint his prop when he is done goofing off. And dress the nicks in the first stage impeller. (That's a real honey of a job in a King Air with the engine on the wing.) And replace the brakes. And explain to my boss why we are only getting 1/2 the life out of our brakes. And change the flat spotted tires. And repack the struts when he blows out the seals while "goofing off." Oh, then there is the Caravan I got to pull out of the water because the pilot was "goofing off" on a dead leg impressing his buddy by seeing how close to the water he could get his wing tip. Unfortuneatly, he lived and is still employed in aviation. Or the Twin Otter I had to change the tires on the runway because the pilot was "goofing off" and landed with the brakes set trying to impress someone with how short he could land that plane, and it, unlike a King Air is designed to land short. Or the pilot who went up to test fly an autopilot and was warned that it might now disconnect... his comment was "I could lift my leg, fart and disconnect this autopilot." So, SuperPilot went and flew a coupled approach on that test flight without first seeing if it would disconnect and lo and behold it wouldn't... 20 feet off the ground it pitched down 10 degrees and did some lovely damage to the front of the airplane. Do I need to go on????

"Goofing off" is not what professional aviators do. Practicing short field work IS important. Abusing the s*** out of your airplane because you are "goofing off" is stupid. Do you do V1 cuts just for fun? Or do you practice them in the sim where it is safe and doesn't do unneccessary damage to you aircraft?

No, I don't want guys like him in the cockpit. He needs to grow up and show a little more responsibilty before he gets cut loose with people on board.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:33 am

Thank you for the lecture, Apathoid...if you want to feel like you are a high and mighty pilot above all of us, go for it. Your comparisons are completely different than the operations we were doing... Never is the safety of flight and integrity of the airplane challenged in what we do. A lightly loaded King Air coming back from a long trip, landing on a short runway is a great time to practice short field operations. No cowboy hats needed.

I apologize as i looked over my wording originally and it was a bit misleading. Jetguy (like he usually does on here) posted another good post, and echoes my stance on the subject. My idea of "goofing off" is challenging myself and practicing keeping my abilities sharp. I enjoy doing that greatly, and use lots of care and judgment when operating in a different manner from the normal passenger carrying type operations. I dont get to fly the King Air as much as i do the other aircraft, nor have i been to flightsafety for school for it, so it is necessary for me to get my procedural practice in on the dead legs.

I already fly charters as captain in the smaller aircraft, and have gotten nothing but top reccomendations from my passengers and crewmembers, not to mention have flown with numerous high time airline and corporate pilots all who have on the spot offered me reccomendations for the airlines when i graduate. I'll let my track record speak for itself.


Anyhoo.. back on subject.
I got to fly a Cessna 152 today again for the first time in a long time, and i remembed a quirk about that throttle that i had long forgotten. They really like work work themselves out of the full throttle position even at full throttle (only a few i have been in havent been that way). We still practice holding it up there in the Pipers, but I've never had one to vibrate itself out like Cessna's do alot.

Welp... like a baby, I'm heading out. I hope there werent too many typos in here.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
apathoid
Posts: 887
Joined: Fri Sep 28, 2001 3:19 pm

RE: Throttle On Cessna And The Like.

Wed Apr 10, 2002 11:54 am

I work with guys like you. I know I will never convince you... and likewise I am wholly convinced you don't belong in the cockpit. We will have to agree to disagree on this one.
 
tt737fo
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Apathoid

Wed Apr 10, 2002 1:06 pm

GREAT!

Another working class hero in our midst. Pissed off at the pilot world for mishandling his hangar queens.

Did it ever occur to you that a pilot will test the performance of his aircraft--i.e. short field capabilities--by putting the props into full reverse, dynamic breaking, etc. A pilot who doesn't do so shouldn't fly at all.

Spinning an aircraft isn't good for it--even though it's certified to be (C-152). Does that mean that if you are a CFI, you shouldn't ever do it? By your logic that would be the case.

Let's say that gimp gets into a situation where he needs to put his King Aire down in a tight squeeze. As a pax, I would feel comfortable knowing he,s been there done that.

So apathoid, when you get a brand new porsche 911, are you going to keep it in your garage? Drive the speed limit? Keep it at 55 on the highway? I bet not, shame on you.

Just keep the master cylinders filled, all your tools counted and your achin sewer shut.

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