Tg 747-300
Topic Author
Posts: 1282
Joined: Fri Nov 26, 1999 6:08 am

Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Sun May 05, 2002 5:26 am

Are the crew allowed to violate SID and STAR procedures in case of an emergency, if violating the SID/STAR will put the aircraft on the ground faster?

And is it common that aircrafts, that have declared an emergency, flies the approaches at a faster speed to get on the ground quicker?

BTW: what are the penalty for violating a SID/STAR procedure on a normal flight?

tg 747-300
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jcxp15
Posts: 989
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RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Sun May 05, 2002 5:48 am

I would image if there is an immediate grave emergency. For a minor emergency, I presume they would contact approach, and get further instructions from then on.
 
Guest

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Sun May 05, 2002 5:53 am

In an emergency, the crew can do pretty much anything that they feel is necessary to get the aircraft safely on the ground. If they end up doing something really bizzare, they may have to justify their actions, but short of that, no one is going to question what they do. As far as what is the penalty for violating a SID or a STAR - it is the same as violating any other portion of an IFR clearance. It can involve a license suspension for a period of time and maybe a fine. In other words, it's something that you really don't want to do. In the real world, a SID or a STAR is something that you frequently get, but ATC often gives you "shortcuts" so as to not require you to fly the entire procedure. For most airplanes, there are very few emergencies which would require the crew to put the aircraft on the ground quickly. I can only think of two or three right off the bat - a fire, a total electrical failure in IFR conditions, and (depending on the type aircraft) perhaps a battery thermal runaway - these are all very rare events, but of course, they can (and have) happened. Are there others? Of course, but most other emergency scenarios give the crews plenty of time to land. It must be remembered, that bad things can happen when flightcrews get rushed.
Jetguy
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Sun May 05, 2002 8:10 am

As per FAR 91.3
" In an in-flight emergency requiring immediate action, the pilot in command may deviate from any rule of this part to the extent required to meet that emergency."

Which means the PIC can do whatever he needs to get the aircraft on the ground safely. If that means violated SID/STAR so be it.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
modesto2
Posts: 2671
Joined: Sun Jul 16, 2000 3:44 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Sun May 05, 2002 11:07 am

I have heard pilots on numerous occassions inform the controller that they can't meet a speed or altitude restriction. Obviously, it's discouraged, but it does happen.
 
Top Gun
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 8:13 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Mon May 06, 2002 1:30 am

Keep in mind the SID and STAR's are there to garuntee ground clearance. In and emergency in IMC and I had and emergency I would stay as close to the STAR as I could. VMC is a different story.

Now if this was in controlled airspace, I'd ask for vectors for a straight in approach, thus negating most of the STAR, this would then be called a vector STAR.
 
ajaaron
Posts: 136
Joined: Thu Nov 02, 2000 9:31 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Mon May 06, 2002 1:48 am

I listen to the airband frequencies every day in the London Terminal Area, UK.

Fact: 90% of departures are deviated from the SID by controller giving radar vectors within 120 sec. of departure! This is especially true at night time when there isn't much traffic and as soon as an aircraft departs it is almost always given clearance 'route direct to...'.

Fact: Lots of arrivals are deviated from the STAR as they fly in as ATC want to keep all the a/c apart!
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Tue May 07, 2002 12:24 pm

Top Gun,

SIDs and STARs have nothing to do with ground clearance...they are used to maximize traffic flow into and out of congested airports...

Per the FAR/AIM, STARS "provide transition from the en route structure to an outer fix or an instrument approach fix/arrival waypoint in the terminal area".

The def for a SID is similar...
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Wed May 08, 2002 10:37 am

SIDs are a way for the controller to talk to you once and not have to talk to you again until you are in Center's airspace and he gives you the freq and says "Good day."

Seriously, I did spend some time making short IFR hops between Houston, Austin and San Antonio and would just be given whatever SID transition was appropriate until told to contact approach at my destination. The same thing was true during the PATCO strike when one could get a clearance based on SIDs, STARs and "tower direct" clearances and never talk to a Center.
 
flightsimfreak
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:36 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Thu May 09, 2002 11:05 pm

The SID for my local airport is the "Tri-cities 4 departure" and it's something like "Fly runway heading, or ATC assigned heading, for vector to assigned route/fix. Maintain 10,000' or assigned lower altitude. Expect clearance to filed altitude 5 minutes after departure." Sort of simplistic, eh? Usually whenever the Delta 737-400 calls clearance it's "Delta 1172, cleared to the Salt Lake City airport as filed, Tri-cities 4 departure, climb maintain 10,000 feet, runway heading, Departure frequency will be 128.75".
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Fri May 10, 2002 10:38 am

Simplistic is the point.

The SID/STAR eliminate the need to issue the same detailed clearance 1,000 times per day.

In response to the question, an Emergency overrides everything. Airspace is cleared; a/c are vectored out of the way and the emergency a/c has priority...

cheers-
 
Top Gun
Posts: 103
Joined: Wed May 19, 1999 8:13 am

RE: Violating The SID/STAR Procedures

Fri May 10, 2002 4:20 pm

RE: Essential power.

"SIDs and STARs have nothing to do with ground clearance...they are used to maximize traffic flow into and out of congested airports... "

It's quite obvious to me that you have never had an instument ground school.

A SID is designed to give you ground clearance provided you can follow three simple things:

1: You keep a 200'/nm climb.
2: You can cross the threshold at least 35' AAE and,
3: You will be at 400' AAE before comencing your turn.

IF you can't keep those, you cannot accept the SID. Which doesn't mean you cannot depart.

As for the STAR they do the same basic thing as a SID but it leads you to the airport instead.

I put some smart ass comment here, but then thought why rub it in?

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