flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 9:34 am

Are FBO rental rates getting out of control? It seems like the cost of insurance is growing by leaps and bounds, as well as the desire to make up losses from last fall. Around here (Denver area) rates for some aircraft have gone up as much as 70% since January. 152s are costing up to $60/hr, with 172Ns up to $85/hr and 182s up to $150/hr.

Is this happening elsewhere? If so, does it seem like the across the board increases are getting to a level that is satisfactory with the owners, or will prices continue to increase at the enormus rates?
 
Guest

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 10:22 am

Where I fly, (north of the boarder) the prices seem to reflect the price of gas. Just a thought!

Cameron
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 11:54 am

Those are about at the national average. The biggest thing is that in most cases at the smaller FBOs, some aircraft don't fly as much as they should. Thus costing more per an hour. But conversly there is the effect that the aircraft is harder to schdule.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
DPrush
Posts: 94
Joined: Wed May 08, 2002 8:11 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 12:36 pm

I've noticed that too. Smaller FBOs are charging outrageous rates nowdays, while the larger, commercial field based ones are becoming more reasonable. Here in MD, an older C172 can be had for 63/hour wet at a larger FBO, compared to upper 70s at a smaller outfit. Instructor prices though, sheesh, upper 30s everywhere  Sad
 
KAUSpilot
Posts: 1659
Joined: Mon Jan 28, 2002 2:15 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 4:19 pm

At my Aircraft Renter/Flight School

172N's $75.00/hr
182RG $120.00/hr
Cherokee $77.00/hr
Mooney M20C $93.00/hr
Seneca $140.00/hr
Baron $180.00/hr


CFI's are an extra $30.00/hr
 
TurbineBeaver
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 1:50 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 5:24 pm

I'm envious of you guys, you're payin' pocket change! At Embry Riddle, a Cessna 172R is $95 an hr, PLUS the $45 an hr instructor rate. And that is only the beginning.

Have a look...I copied this from another one of my posts:

(all prices are per hour).
Cessna 172......................$95.00
Piper Arrow....................$115.00
Piper Seminole................$185.00
Frasca 141.......................$25.00
Frasca 142.......................$60.00
Frasca C-172....................$55.00
Frasca CRJ.....................$225.00
Frasca Seminole..............$140.00


TB
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Wed May 08, 2002 9:22 pm

I will defend the prices a little. The Rs are as well equiped as the SPs at most flight schools. And the maitnece is alot better.

Once we were about to ground a plane for a broken beacon, well the maitnece guy, came around and fixed it before we were done with the pre-flight.

But the CFI rates IMO are horrible.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
TurbineBeaver
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 1:50 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 5:51 am

PPGMD,

I agree with you man. The price of the plane is fine, especially when you consider "you pay for what you get" it's true, maintenance at riddle is awesome. I've had landing lights, and beacons fixed while preflighting. I just don't understand the CFI rates. The riddle CFI's get paid about $12 an hr, YET, we pay $45 for them. Where the HELL is this $33 going to?? It is going to RIDDLE to compensate for what they don't get from tuition. Or to SOMEWHERE. Maybe Douchette's pocket!

TB
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 7:32 am

You say the front page of the Avioff. Its going to Dr. Evil Ebbs  Smile

Part of it goes to the benes, another part is going to the tution discount that the instructors get, finally a part goes to the general fund.

Thats how I see it going, for me that just too much markup. One thing though that it does is that they all charge the same, they could charge a lower rate for a student instrutor vs. a full time one. But what happens when he goes full time. Personally I think it all is just to make it less that people complain about diffrent pricing schemes.

Unfortunatly it didn't work as planned, too many people know what they pay the IPs, and they know what they charge.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
TurbineBeaver
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 1:50 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 8:35 am

PPGMD,

Exactly. It seems like us flight students are the one's picking up the tab for just about everything, (I wonder where they got the $$ for the new AWS building........). Oh well, riddle won't change. It is just something I'll have to deal with, letting Riddle rip me off! My favorite name is Chief Pilot, Mr. Ken Douchebag.

Hehehe!!!

TB
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 12:42 pm

where i teach:

C-72- 75
PA28 Archer II- 75
PA28 Archer III w/ dual garmin 430's and S-TEC 55 autopilot- 115

and thats all we have haha...best kept up straining planes ive ever seen.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 12:48 pm

How do you get your commerical or ME there?

I know there is a better stocked FBO there, I have a friend that teaches there.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
TurbineBeaver
Posts: 1511
Joined: Fri Jan 11, 2002 1:50 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 11:05 pm

XFSUGimp,

What are the rates for those a/c? And where did you do all your training?

PPGMD...have you done ANY of your flight training at riddle? What is your major?

TB
 
flightsimfreak
Posts: 698
Joined: Sun Oct 29, 2000 9:36 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 11:21 pm

Rental of my aircraft went up from 39/hour to 45/hour... Grandpa got pissed, went in and yelled at the FBO owner's daughter (she's the secratary) and decided he wasn't going to pay... I talked him back into paying and he went down there with me, and I got the rate garenteed and he wrote them a check for a couple thousand dollars... nice grandpa, eh?
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Thu May 09, 2002 11:54 pm

Right now I am finishing my IFR, and working on my glider commerical. At the same time I am building time for my airplane commerical. Thinking about getting my multi-engine after I am done with the IFR.

Don't know, I just want to have my airplane comm. done by next summer because I want to do the CFI/I fast track program. I have no intention to work for Riddle, I just want to get it done in two-three months. After that I might do my MEI/I at Riddle it just depends on how expensive it actually is. At the same time I would be getting my CFIG.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Guest

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Fri May 10, 2002 1:02 am

This is a very interesting thread. Costs have certainly increased over the past 35 years. Everything's relative though...

I learned to fly back in 1966 in an Aeronca 7AC Champ that cost me $4.00 per hour/wet. In 1967 I could rent a brand new Cessna 150 from the local FBO for $6.00 per hour/wet in 10 hour blocks. Cessna 170s rented for $8.00 an hour and Mooney M20Cs rented for $16. I know that sounds pretty cheap, but I was earning $1.25 an hour bagging groceries at the time. My PPL cost me about $600, but that represented 480 hours of "bagging groceries". I'm sure that it's about the same today. Flying never has been nor will it ever be inexpensive.

One thing that seemed to be more popular back then was flying clubs. The Champ and C170 that I flew belonged to a club. However, the other planes were were FBO aircraft. In additon to belonging to various flying clubs, I've also been in several aircraft partnerships and I've even owned a few aircraft outright. Schools, like ERAU, and FBOs charge what they do because they can. There are ways to get around the high costs, but you have to be creative.

If I were you, I'd check to see if there were any flying clubs in your area. Typically, most flying clubs have five or more members per aircraft. They usually are "non-profit” organizations designed to provide club members with a less expensive alternative to either renting or outright ownership. These clubs own or lease one or more aircraft and make them available to club members at significantly reduced rates. The best way to find out about any clubs which might be in your area is to go out to the airport on a sunny weekend and ask around. The clubs typically charge an initiation fee, monthly dues, and hourly usage fees. The scheduling is usually handled by a club member and is typically “first come, first served”. It is not uncommon for club members to share aircraft cleaning and maintenance responsibilities.

One of the other ways I've owned aircraft in in partnership with other pilots. Partnerships are similar to flying clubs, but with fewer participants. (Usually four or less.) Like clubs, partnerships save money by dividing the fixed and indirect costs of aircraft ownership among multiple individuals. There are as many ways to organize partnerships as there are partners. Normally, each partner owns a share of the airplane and is responsible for a corresponding percentage of the fixed and indirect costs such as insurance, hangar, taxes, annual inspections, etc.

Sole Ownership is a reasonable alternative for many people. Good, well maintained used aircraft are readily available and can be purchased at prices ranging from about $15,000. Ownership, either individual or in a partnership gives you control over your situation. You know exactly how well the plane is being maintained; you know what the plane’s idiosyncrasies are; you have much more control over the schedule; and finally, GOOD CLEAN USED AIRCRAFT TEND TO APPRECIATE IN VALUE. Over the years, I’ve been involved in several aircraft partnerships. My first partnership was in a Luscombe 8F. We purchased it while I was working on my instrument rating and commercial license. I was able to use the airplane for a significant portion of my training. After I had obtained my ratings I sold my share of the airplane. In the eighteen months that I had owned it, it had appreciated enough to cover all of its operating costs. In other words, flying the Luscombe had cost me nothing! It would be a mistake to purchase an airplane expecting the appreciation to totally cover the cost of operation, because like buying a used car, there is always some risk. However, if you do your “homework”, shop carefully, and have a bit of luck you may be able to recoup a significant portion of your training costs when and if you ever decide to sell.

If you plan on flying a minimal amount after you complete your training it will probably be more economical to simply rent your aircraft. If you happen to live in an area where there are no flying clubs and/or partnerships it might be worth your while to organize one. It’s not difficult and there are several books and publications available to assist you.

Bottom line is this: All any potiential employer cares about is the ratings and experience that you have, not where or how you got them. Upon graduating from ERAU you are not issued a special FAA certificate with a gold seal that says "Graduate of ERAU". ER is a good and highly respected school. We have a couple of their graduates that work for us and I have flown with several others. Their flight training program turns out good pilots. However, you pay a high price for what you get. Is it necessary? Personally, I don't believe so. I have always felt that the CFI is the single most importent factor in determining the quality of the training that you are receiving. Whether you select ERAU or another flight school or even decide to use a “freelance” flight instructor the quality of your training will be largely determined by individual flight instructor’s skills, abilities, and experience. The best flight school facilities, training curriculum or the newest, best equipped training aircraft can not compensate for a mediocre flight instructor. ERAU certainly has not cornered the market on good instructors - they are where you find them.

Jetguy
 
Illini_152
Posts: 959
Joined: Sun Jan 14, 2001 6:00 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Fri May 10, 2002 4:03 pm

I'm going to second what Jetguy has said here and recomend looking for a flying club if you want to build hours before you can get a job flying or without paying an arm and a leg.

Right now, I pay $45/month in dues at my club, in return I have access to a 182, a 172M, a 172R, a PA28-151 and a Citabria 7ECA. The planes are almost always available, all but the Citabria are not only IFR equiped, but I wouldn't (havn't) hesitated to fly them in IMC.

The worst one is the 182 as far as cost goes, its $88/hr wet, with a 280 horse engine, GNS430, dual glideslopes, ADF, DME, long range fuel and wing leveler. I can stock it with 4 pilots, and fly somewhere for the weekend, and we effectivly pay 22/hr.

Cheapest is the Citabria at $39/hr. And she's just a fun little bird to toss around


Clubs are the way to go in my opinion. Join one, get a few friends together and go on a trip. Split the costs, see the country and have fun!

Mike
Happy contrails - I support B747Skipper and Jetguy
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Fri May 10, 2002 6:40 pm

The Cessna 150 out at Bryan Coulter Field (CFD) is still $40/hr. wet. At Easterwood (CLL), the 172s run about $65/hr. In 1996 when I was doing my PPL, the 152 was $45/hr, 172 was $60/hr, and the 172RG was $75/hr.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
serge
Posts: 1903
Joined: Thu Sep 27, 2001 2:01 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sat May 11, 2002 9:40 am

At Servair West, my local FBO at KISN (Williston, ND) I am paying $52 an hour for a Cessna 152 and another $30 an hour for the instructor. Very cheap considering the aircraft is in great maintainance and we aren't charged for the instructor's time on the ground! The aircraft rental rate for the 152 did go up $3 though since last year, but thats nothing to pay for quality....

Sadly, it looks like I will move before I will get my PPL (I am only 14 though, I have 9.1 hours), so I will be paying through the arse, especially if I live in the DC area (looks like it'll be DC).


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Photo © Serge Walczak



^ Thats the aircraft ^

...Serge  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
Av8trxx
Posts: 632
Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2001 7:08 am

FBO Rates Suck- Join A Club!

Sat May 11, 2002 11:16 am

As long as there is a staff and overhead to pay for, what else would you expect? The object of running a business is to turn a profit.

Want better prices? Try looking for a flying CLUB in your area. Most are NOT FOR PROFIT, and operated by the members for the members.

In San Diego, one such club is Plus One Flyers. Cessna 152s go for $49, C172s for $64 and Archers rent for $75. Check out the Fleet List & Prices and see for yourself. Flying clubs are a better way to fly AND save money! Look for one in your area. I saved at least $10-15K over the course of all my ratings.
 
Racers22
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:03 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sat May 11, 2002 12:18 pm

I wish that I got the deals that some of you have. At my local FBO in Indianapolis it is:

$69....C152
$105..C172R
$106..Rockwell Commander 112A
$110..C172SP
$116..PA28-Archer III
$145..C182S

and then instruction is another $35/hour.

 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sat May 11, 2002 12:24 pm

OMG I love that, Useful Load: Not too much

Yep the trusty 152, now if only I had a good looking female instructor during my training.  Big grin
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sat May 11, 2002 2:06 pm

Average price for instruction down here is $22, some only charge $15 or $18/hr.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
SkyGuy11
Posts: 532
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:09 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sat May 11, 2002 4:41 pm

My FBO:
172P $79.50
172R $89.50
172SP $99.50
172RG $89.50
Katana $71.95

A bit steep but not unreasonable in my opinion.
.
 
flyf15
Posts: 6633
Joined: Tue May 18, 1999 11:10 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 12, 2002 6:21 am

Thought since I started this, I'd throw in the exact details for the FBO I was talking about (and I fly out of occasionally)...

152 ... $58
172N ... $85
R172K ... $92
182 ... $115
TR182 ... $150
T210 ... $210
310Q/P ... $255
PA-28-180 ... $88
PA-28R-200 ... $100
Citabria ... $90
Super Decathlon ... $155

Instruction ... $40


The other FBO I usually fly out of ---

172N/P ... $77
R172K ... $98
172S ... $108
BE-76 ... $175

Instruction ... $45



I thought these prices were extremely high, but it looks like they're sadly not too high in comparison.
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 12, 2002 6:33 am

Now the super D is extremely high, I can fly a Pitts S-2B for only $100/hr + 35 for instrutor.

But all the other prices fall in line with normal.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
lamyl_hhlco
Posts: 596
Joined: Tue Aug 08, 2000 8:28 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 12, 2002 11:47 am

At my FBO at lee's summit the prices are all right compared to what i was paying at Spartan school (part 141) in Tulsa Oklahoma.
I was getting a good deal here in Kansas city for 51$ /h with a C152 + 25$ for the instructor and 75$/h with a C172 which is all right compared to SPARTAN School...believe it or not this School is exagerating on the price and it's obviously ridiculous. Check it out for an hour of flight on a C152 Dual 100$ !!!! C172SP 120$
plus the monthly ground school 500$ ...so at this point u need to have bank running for your business. I might say in a part 141 you don't fly as much as u suppose to and u learn almost nothing...I have learned more on flying at an FBO's and i have a better flying experience...the cheapest of all, is the "Christiansen Aviation school" a part 61 at Tulsa Lloyd Johns, if you buy a block time of 1000$ u'll have a big reduction ex: C152 36$/h C172 47$ + 20 instructor
Compared to Spartan u can fly 3hs for the price of one and on the same type of aircraft...do you think it's normal?? why this big difference?

best

Lamyl
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 12, 2002 11:55 am

rates here:

C-172S-$108/hr.
Instructor-$35/hr.
Thats all my school has really, they just got a 152 and a Katana but I dont know how much they cost...
On this topic, my parents are thinking of purchasing a plane and leasing it to the FBO for their usage... theyve talked to the Chief CFI here about it...anyone ever done this? is it worth it?

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 12, 2002 12:54 pm

sorry fellas...been doing trips and otherwise running all over creation the past few days...

Good question on the commercial and ME stuff... you dont really do it here though, we do have access to a complex plane so ASEL com would be feasable, but most people go other places for commercial. There isnt really a high demand in tally-ho for an ME training...although i believe by buying one we could make a demand for it. The lead flight instructor and i are trying to talk our CEO into getting one.

I got most of my training from Advanced Aviation back home in atlanta at LZU airport (private-C-152, IFR-C-172, ME-PA-44T turbo seminole). I did some of my instrument and CFI training down here.. and did my ASEL commercial add-on here too. Got my CFI, CFII, and MEI from Arnie Odegaard and Associates in a little airport outside of Crestview, FL. Flew a C-152, Beech Travelair and Beech Baron 55. Neat little 3000 foot grass strip there. A hoot operating those barons out of there.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
bahadir
Posts: 1287
Joined: Wed Oct 03, 2001 4:57 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Fri May 17, 2002 9:13 am

Only 4 years ago I was able to rent a PA28R-201 at Manassas, VA FBO for $70 / hr. Now at the flight school I work at KRNT people pay $89 for a C172N. My instructional rate is $40/hr but I get only 25% of it.. I am willing to make the instructional rate $25/hr if the school went off its way. Of course the owner is turning nice profit on my charges too..

CFIs of the world Unite!!  Smile
Earthbound misfit I
 
surv1
Posts: 14
Joined: Wed Feb 07, 2001 9:23 pm

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 19, 2002 1:32 am

I presently pay $72 an hour wet for a 172M in great condition. When I was working on my PPL, it was $69 an hour for the same plane and $20 per hour for the instructor, which in reading some of the other posts, isn't so bad.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: FBO Rental Rates

Sun May 19, 2002 5:50 am

Wow, Bahadir.... your school makes huge profit off of the instructor rates. We charge 25 an hour here, and i make 17.50. They make the most off of the airplanes as Flightline has its own in house maintainance and fuel.
Chicks dig winglets.

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