david b.
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Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 9:16 am

What is a sink rate of a aircraft? And what does it mean when the GPWS tells you "Dont Sink"?
Teenage-know-it-alls should be shot on sight
 
sxmarbury33
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 9:27 am

The GPWS callout sink rate is when the aircraft is approaching the ground faster than it should be in normal service. This is probably the most frequent alert because its just a matter of a few hundred feet persecond. If this is not corrected you may get the terrian and or pull up warning. The dont sink warning is mainly for after takeoff. If the GPWS senses from the RA that the aircraft is decending after the takeoff it will give an aural call out to warn the pilot.
 
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wilcharl
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 9:29 am

Thats on all airlines except NW, on NW they have an STC that allows them to modify their GPWS to say "Don't Drink... Don't Drink"
 
avt007
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 9:41 am

And here I always thought it said "don't think"!
 
777236ER
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 10:22 am

"Don't sink" is after take off to ensure that they keep on climbing immediately after take off. "Sink rate" is at any other time when the sink rate gets excessive.
Your bone's got a little machine
 
PPGMD
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 10:31 am

"Sink rate...Sink Rate... Gear... Gea..." Shut up!  Smile

I flew an aircraft with one of those it only lasted about ten mintues before I turned it off, too much of a distraction.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 10:51 am

To further clarify what has been said.. sink rate has to do with the vertical speed of the aircraft. It's easy to get this in a windshear situation after departure or on arrival- the Don't Sink warning comes in when your sink rate has a projected danger of sending you dancing with a hill. I've only heard on departure on a 2 engine failure the DC-10... the most ive heard it is adjusting when coming off of a non-precision approach or visual approach and trying to get the airplane set up for a stabilized final descent. When i first heard the warning, i also thought it said Don't Think.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 11:18 am

There are 5 basic GPWS modes. They are shown below with the associated callouts:

Mode 1 - Excessive Descent Rate (Sink Rate, Pull Up)
Mode 2 - Excessive Terrain Closure Rate (Terrain-Terrain, Pull Up)
Mode 3 - Altitude Loss After Take-off (Don't Sink)
Mode 4 - Unsafe Terrain Clearance (Too Low Gear, Too Low Flaps, Too Low Terrain)
Mode 5 - Excessive Deviation Below Glideslope (Glideslope)

All of these modes have specific aural warnings associated with them which are issued based on specific aircraft performance parameters.

The "SINK RATE" callout is associated with Mode 1 only and is issued when the GPWS detects excessive descent rate for the altitude above ground. It is followed by "PULL UP" at a pre-determined point.

The "DON'T SINK" callout is associated with Mode 3 only and is issued when the aircraft sinks after takeoff. The altitude loss at which the callout is issued is dependant on the height above ground. This mode is inactive above 1500 feet.

These callouts are ONLY used for these instances.

 
Guest

RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 3:17 pm

Someone here seems to take the attitude that these cautions and warnings are nothing but nuisance...I wish you wouldn't take it too slightly.

Perhaps with the exception of Mode 3, "Don't Sink" and occasionally some nuisance alerts, any of the GPWS warnings could literally mean you are seconds from being a grease spot on some hills. I wouldn't turn it off if I were you.

I was on about half a dozen of GPWS flight tests and my impression was that these warnings were darn hard to get. When we get them I'd still remember the chills that ran down my spine, thankful that we were inducing these warnings on purpose. As I recalled, to get Mode 1 "Sink Rate" and the subsequent "Whoop Whoop Pull Up", we had to start out at 2500ft AGL diving straight at the ground at about 3000fpm. It's normal to pull 2.5g in the pull up maneuver. Quite an exciting ride in retrospect. Unless you fly a Dash 8 doing 6 degree path descents at high altitude with high ground speed, if you hear this in real life, better arrest that rate quick. You'd get less than a minute to live, usually.

To test Mode 2, we aimed at a mountain, flying about 200 ft above the top. Because it's Radar Altimeter based, you'd get the "Terrain Terrain" about 15 seconds before impact, the "Whoop Whoop Pull Up" about 10 seconds before impact (if you happen to fly below the peak). You hear this, you immediately aim for the moon. The Cali, Columbia accident in 1995...the airplane got the warning 12 seconds before it hit the mountain. Yes, that was a Mode 2. The Enhanced GPWS (TAWS) would give you about 60 seconds caution (Terrain) and 30 seconds (PULLUP).

Mode 3 was easy to get, takeoff, lose about 80 ft altitude or get a negative climb rate of more than a 100fpm or so then you get it.

To get Mode 4, I remembered you have to be really close to the ground about 500 ft AGL or so before you get "Too Low Terrain", keep getting closer then you get "Too Low Gear" then about 200 ft AGL or so you'd get "Too Low Flaps". We'd pick some flat field out in the desert to do this test. All I would see would be brown earth all around us. I'd hate to run into some high voltage power lines out there.

Mode 5 "Glideslope" wasn't too bad but you have to be a whole dot below glideslope really close to the ground (about 300 ft AGL or so) before you'd get it. I'd react quickly to any of these.

If you are lucky enough that the aircraft you fly has it, use it. Don't turn it off. It could save your life some day. I read somewhere that 70% of all accidents out there are due to one form of CFIT (controlled flight into terrain) or another. A few airliners CFIT accidents happened partly because the crew didn't react to GPWS Pull Up warnings aggressively.

The cheapest GPWS out there is about $8,000 and unfortunately it's not required for part 91 unless the a/c has 6 pax seats or more. So most GA aircraft out there do not have this gem installed. Hopefully it'll get much cheaper really soon.

Best Regards,
Nut
 
dc10hound
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 4:02 pm



"TERRAIN, TERRAIN"

If there's a train coming, we really are in trouble, are we not?


"Eagles soar. But weasels never get sucked into jet intakes.."
 
PPGMD
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 9:31 pm

Well the PC-3 that I have flown on a couple of occasions has an old military one installed in it, way too much of a distraction in a two seat aircraft. It went off constantly while I was in the pattern, maybe the ones in the airliners are a lot better but this one was just plain annoying in a situtation where I had everything under control.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
FDXmech
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Tue May 21, 2002 11:03 pm

I view the GPWS as a data consolidater. The GPWS in itself takes data (radio altitude, baro altitude, vertical speed, gear position, flaps, etc) available to the pilots, integrates it, and contructs a picture of potential danger. A valuable system. And now with EGPWS, even better.
You're only as good as your last departure.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 12:26 am

Correction:
"It's easy to get this in a windshear situation after departure or on arrival" would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate".

Wind Shear warnings have a higher aural priority that GPWS or TCAS.
 
bio15
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MD11Nut...

Wed May 22, 2002 12:32 am

Interesting post MD11Nut. I dare to correct you though, on the fact that the Cali accident was not in Columbia but COLOMBIA!
-bio
 
avt007
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 4:31 am

False alarms are a fact of life with gpws. No doubt as newer systems come on line, it will improve, but complacency can be a problem. I worked on gpws snags for 15 years, and false alarms are very common. The biggest problem is everything surrounds the rad alt. The dash8 has lots of snags with these, resulting in terrain warnings in cruise, pull up warnings while taxiing in the rain, too low gear @ 20,000 feet. I can't say as I blame the crews, but hopefully they'll react fast if it's IFR.
 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 11:52 am

Essential Power,

With respect to your "correction":

Although windshear detection is a requirement for Part 121 operations, you need to remember that there are other types of operators who do not require it. As a matter of fact a great deal of business aircraft with GPWS or EGPWS/TAWS don't have this option enabled or another form of windshear detection installed. Therefore, in these instances you may in fact get a "SINK RATE" in windshear conditions.

 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 11:58 am

It was readily apparrent that I was referring to part 121 airlines, therefore windshear capable.

Reread it.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 12:01 pm

Was my statement:

"...would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate"."

confusing to you?

He's talking about a DC10 sim at Natco, as his Dad's a -10 capt. My response is accurate as written.

read what was posted.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 12:32 pm

I very well could have been confused as to what the GPWS was saying when... I havent had the formal ground school in the 10, just have been taught the SOPA and SMAC and international operations in them... there is a mode check during my preflight flows on the GPWS (which had been upgraded to EGPWS last time i was in there) and i remember it going through all those callouts... just not in that order. When the thing went off i generally was too busy, and just remember it yelling at me about something. I remember a windshear and sink rate callout very close together.... probably was the one on approach from what these modes have been. Also the dont sink one, I suppose that was on the depature windshear, as i have been trained in all the most violent profiles they give the students. The windshear alert always gets called out in the event of one... the other items will follow.

Chicks dig winglets.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 12:51 pm

I can't really decipher the above para, but it doesn't sound like you're particularly qualified to have answered the topic.
 
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wilcharl
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 12:59 pm

I think essentialpower thinks that XFSUgimpLB41Xh got his king air "type raiting" (yes i know the king air doesnt require a type raiting, but someone that went there said they had one but anyways... )from Tab aviation in Deadland florida  Smile
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 1:05 pm

Basically i was agreeing with you, Essential... 121 planes have the windshear mode enabled. Plus i was clarifying that i have not had the groundschool for the DC-10 and the EGPWS...just been through the flight sim portion of training in standard and emergency operating procedures.


I'm typing a 10 page paper and using this site to procrastinate... my responses probably aren't as coherant tonight.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 1:06 pm

No, that's not what EssentialPowr thinks.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Wed May 22, 2002 1:12 pm

XFSU,

No sweat; I call them like I see em. At any rate, I admire your drive, and wish you the best of luck. I'm sure NWA will have an FO seat in the -9 when you're ready.

Cheers-
 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 2:17 am

More assumptions being made. Not all "airliners" are neccessarily operated part 121. Not all airliners are operated under FAA rules.

 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 2:35 am

It took you that long to come up with a response after you clearly didn't read the post?

That's pathetic. Part 121 ops was implicit, particularly from my frist response to you.

You mean the BBJ Greg Norman owns isnt operated under PArt 121? Gee! So that's an "airliner" operated under part 91. What about the 747SP owned by the Sultan of Brunei? What about the Brazilias that Earnhart Racing flies? That's an "airliner" operated under 91 or 135. The c9s, c12s, KC10, etc operated by the military have only just started to receive TCAS, GPWS, and W/S. Many still don't have it, but they're "airliners."

Windshear detection is reqd for 121 ops. I don't think anyone other than you misunderstood that.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 2:39 am

You can call something a "canoe" if you want. As I said, in Part 121 ops, the warning for the situation XFSU described would be:

"Windshear". Period.

Got it?
 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 3:36 am

In Canada we call it 705. Not 121. And the rules are NOT identical. get it?
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 3:49 am

WHo in hell said anything about Canada or similarity of rules? Where is that in this thread? Can you not read???

I said "121". Part 121 means United States, as has been reiterrated 1,000s of times on this forum, so that's blatantly obvious as well.

You're really streching to recover from a whole series of ridiculous posts on your part.


In Part 121 ops, the scenario described by XFSU, the audible is "Windshear." That's about as simple as it gets.

This is fun, so keep trying.


 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 3:57 am

**For anyone that cares to answer, my first post:

"...(XFSU's scenario)....would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate".

Was it not apparrent that I was referring to Part 121 ops (ie, US) and further, if it's 121 op, then it's an airliner?

Airplay seems to think we're talking about Canada....and doesn't get what Part 121 means: scheduled airline operations. Windshear is req'd equip, hence the msg "windshear."

It seems to me he's got an ax to grind!
 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 4:15 am

You seem to imply that 737's (and other airliners) can not and are not sometimes operated under part 91. You are simply wrong.

As far as Part 121 being repeated thousands of times, that does not make this an "American only" aviation site.

When reference to DC-10s were originally made in this thread, the operating part or country was not mentioned.
 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 4:35 am

By the way, in case you don't know, Part 121 covers commercial operators. Check out part 119 for information. It says that commercial operators need to operate under 121 or one of the other commercial ops rules.

Unless the golf hero you mentioned or the various heads of state charge their buddies to fly with them, they are NOT commercial and don't have to operate under 121 or any other commercial operating rule.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 4:47 am

BS.

Everyone knows some "airliners" are operated part 91; ie Greg Norman's BBJ.

I said "121 airliner". Here's the post:

Correction:
"It's easy to get this in a windshear situation after departure or on arrival" would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate".

Wind Shear warnings have a higher aural priority that GPWS or TCAS."

It's my option to specify Part 121, which I CLEARLY did. If you want to blab about airline ops in Bulgaria, feel free. My orig post is accurate as written.

What's your problem?
 
Guest

RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 7:01 am

I thought Greg Norman negated on getting a BBJ. He said it was too big, too hard to park.

I think there's no need to get offended regarding windshear. Both sides are correct from your given perspective. It's all depends on how you define windshear. To get a "Windshear, Windshear" warning, you need a lot of windshear. The kind of "windshear" it would take to get a "Don't Sink" probably won't be enough to set off the real windshear warning.

Regards,
Nut
 
airplay
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Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 7:08 am

My problem is that you "correct" people who may in fact have stated something correctly. You don't consider alternatives. (Like usual)

Then you cry about being corrected yourself.

The post about the DC-10 could have been made with reference to a Canadian registered DC-10. We don't have a windshear detection rule for airline ops.

YOU chose to guess that he was talking about part 121. Your statement was:

Correction:
"It's easy to get this in a windshear situation after departure or on arrival" would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate".

I was merely pointing out that there are other possible conditions that would have these results.

Stop being such a baby.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 7:31 am

No.
For a Part 121 Airliner in windshear conditions:

1. Windshear warnings have priority over GPWS or TCAS.

2. A/c configuration to enable the Windshear warning is less than 10000', approach or landing config.

3. If Windshear is Detected, GPWS and TCAS are INHIBITED.
-Mode 1 alert mode = sink rate, sink rate followed by the warning, "whoop, whoop, pull up." MODE 1 compares barometric rate of descent with radio altimeter height, and has NO INPUT from the ADC for a groundspeed/ decreasing performance situation.
-Mode 2 is only enabled in a clean config
-Mode 3 and 4 compare barometric to radio altimeter setting - NO windshear variable, same as Mode 1.

Further, Mode 3 "Don't Sink" is ONLY effective b/t 50' and 700' RA, and does not even arm during descent until the a/c is below 200' RA and in the Landing config.- mere seconds before the flare.
-Mode 5 requires an ILS freq on (typically) the #1 NAV; deactivated below 50' RA.
-Modes 1 and 4 take priority over mode 5.

4. Therefore the audible warning will be "Windshear." There are no 2 correct answers to this. If there were, that would make the system confusing and therefore worthless.

PS- I did not list the entire envelope and variables for each mode, as the details aren't nec for the scope of this topic.
 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 7:47 am

I said:

"Correction:
It's easy to get this in a windshear situation after departure or on arrival" would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate".

Wind Shear warnings have a higher aural priority that GPWS or TCAS."

1. It still means exactly what is says. For the scenario as described, windshear, the message will be "Windshear". Period.

2. I said part 121, which means US. Not Canada, or anywhere else.

3. I said part 121, which doesn't include any other "airliner" flown in a Part 91 operation.

4. I said part 121, which means OBVIOUSLY commercial operations. Thanks for the ramblings.

5. I said Part 121, which doesn't have anything to do with business a/c.


Final comment directed to Airplay:
So, Airplay, What part of my 1st post, quoted above, do you not understand? You fired off a response that was wrong, and all of the following crap you posted such as: "In Canada we call it 705" is merely a miserable attempt to argue. So let's recenter, Here it is:

Correction:
"It's easy to get this in a windshear situation after departure or on arrival" would trigger an audible "Windshear" warning on a part 121 airliner in an arrival or departure configuration, not "Sink Rate".

Wind Shear warnings have a higher aural priority that GPWS or TCAS.

Biz jet in Canada? No. PART 121. Get it?


 
EssentialPowr
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 12:21 pm

My statement "on a part 121 airliner" WAs a correction. Don't dare tell me how to present my topics, or attempt to educate me with your pathetic understanding of linguistics.

What the does "part 121 airliner mean", exactly? 2 things:

Part 121 refers to 1. US airline, and 2. scheduled operations. That phrase defined the ENTIRE Comment. Period. Get it? CASES OUTSIDE OF part 121 were SPECIFICALLY EXCLUDED by MY phrase....

DO you GET IT NOW?

My first post was, and still is, a correct statment.

You should have read it, and understood it. Your appetite for a fight, or some beef with me, caused you to make a multitude of statement that were brutally stupid.



 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 12:34 pm

EP,

Your original post stated the word "Correction". That implies that the statement made by XFS contained an error.

I am simply pointing out that his statements may be correct in some instances. I have pointed out several examples where the statement can be correct.

Perhaps if you wanted to clarify what happens in part 121 operations, the more appropriate word would have been "Clarification". If this was the case, I wouldn't have posted a response in the first place.

By the way, mode 3 may be remain enabled up to 1500 feet depending on the type of unit. Also, you are wrong about Mode 2. It is not just enabled in the "clean configuration". Mode 2 has 2 "submodes". 2A is clean in climbout, cruise and initial approach. Depending on the model of GPWS, Mode 2B is enabled within the first 60 seconds of takeoff, or during landing following land flap selection or when the applicable G/S and LOC are within 2 dots. (just a clarification)






 
ammunition
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RE: Sink Rate "don't Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 12:43 pm

The funny thing is........ ur all over 25 and possibly in ur mid 30's, professional people and ur arguing like kids..... Reminds of a few non-aviation threads posted by people in the age category 13-15  Big thumbs up
it was fun watching you all though  Smile
Saint Augustine- 'The world is a book and those who do not travel, read only 1 page'
 
PPGMD
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 12:46 pm

Arguing with a pilot is like wrestling with a pig in the mud, after a while you begin to think the pig likes it.

— Seen on a General Dynamics bulletin board

The qoute speaks for it all.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Thu May 23, 2002 1:36 pm

1. IT did contain an error. XFSU was referring to a DC10 sim at Northwest Airlines, as his dad is a CAptain for them. I recognized this from previous posts, and went on to clarify the scenario as it related to Part 121 ops.

2. Interestingly, XFSU goes on to refer to the DC10 sim as I indicated. You missed that point as well in your rush to argue.

3. Your efforts to edit or clarify my statements in ANY way is a waste of your time.

4. The only thing you've pointed out have been a litany of insults, as usual, b/c you can't grasp the specificity of a single phrase. Your response to my Correction addressed operations other than US Part 121. I specified part 121; You should have re read the post; like I said.

5. From XFSU's scenario, if a windshear event occurs on a part 121 a/c, the audible is "windshear." Exactly NONE of the scenarios you pointed out, ranging from Canadian ops to airliners operated under PArt 91, were a valid response to the scenario I specified: US part 121. Again, that was abundantly clear.

6. I omitted specific parameters because they were beyond the scope; if you want to retype you manual on this forum feel free - but I don't think that's really the point, do you?

7. I knew from your first response that you were looking for a scrap, so I ask you:

What does part 121 windshear event mean to you in terms of cockpit audible alarms? Your answer should be:
***************************************************
"Windshear" will be annunciated as a priority over GPWS ot TCAS.
***************************************************
In Canada? No. In a King Air? No. Privately operated Part 91 737? Who knows. These were never part of the topic.

 
airplay
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RE: Sink Rate "Dont Sink"

Fri May 24, 2002 2:19 am

EP,

You stated:

In Canada? No. In a King Air? No. Privately operated Part 91 737? Who knows. These were never part of the topic.

I don't recall reference to Part 121 in the original question. You also stated:


6. I omitted specific parameters because they were beyond the scope; if you want to retype you manual on this forum feel free - but I don't think that's really the point, do you?


I believe that last statement was in response to an error I found in your Mode 2 description.

I don't really care if you don't want to accept my clarifications or graciously accept your errors. I don't see anything wrong with my posts which were meant to explain how XFS's observations could be possible. You decided to treat them as a challenge instead of clarification.

So be it.

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