hkniceguy
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:53 pm

Flames During Engine Startup?

Tue May 21, 2002 1:58 pm

Flames during engines startup?? Is this always happen? Or only happen during first/final run??


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luchtzak
Posts: 457
Joined: Sat Dec 22, 2001 1:03 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Tue May 21, 2002 2:01 pm

@ Hknicequy

It happens sometimes when the a/c has been parked for a long time (8 hours e.g.) it is just a little bit of jet-fuel that didn't combust right-a-way. Giving flames in the engine!!

No bigga deal!

Kind regards
Luchtzak
 
hkniceguy
Posts: 128
Joined: Tue Jun 26, 2001 12:53 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Tue May 21, 2002 2:10 pm

Thanks Luchtzak! Will this also happen on newer engines? Like GE90, PW4000 and Trent?
 
azjubilee
Posts: 3402
Joined: Sat Apr 29, 2000 5:26 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Tue May 21, 2002 2:28 pm

When you think about the basic operating principles of a jet engines... there is always a flame going on inside the engine. Suck, squeeze, bang, blow... it's not a big deal.



AZJ
 
rapo
Posts: 383
Joined: Fri Sep 17, 1999 12:04 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Tue May 21, 2002 8:29 pm

I think the point is that one rarely sees flames OUTSIDE the typical jet engine (afterburners notwithstanding).

rapo
 
ual777contrail
Posts: 2914
Joined: Sun Feb 17, 2002 11:33 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Tue May 21, 2002 11:38 pm

I have seen 10Feet of flames coming out of a DC-10 engine and it something to see.but like the other post stated the fuel sits overnight and then you see the plane have a "hotstart".






ual 777 contrail
 
Leezyjet
Posts: 3541
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 7:26 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Wed May 22, 2002 1:45 am

A few years ago at LHR, a pax blew the chute on an MH 744 when he saw flames coming out of the engine on startup and about 10 other pax followed him down. It happend so quickly, the cabin crew were doing the demo, they didn't get chance to stop them.

When the pax landed on the ramp, (they had gone out of Door 4, which brought them right down behind the engines which were running) the headset guy doing startup $h!t himself as obviously he wasn't expecting it....he had to make them lay down on the floor whilst the engines were shut down....

Flight got cancelled overnight whilst a new chute was located.....
"She Rolls, 45 knots, 90, 135, nose comes up to 20 degrees, she's airborne - She flies, Concorde Flies"
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
Joined: Tue Jun 15, 1999 11:29 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Wed May 22, 2002 6:24 am


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If memory serves, BA's 747s are RB211-equipped, and those same engines on the L1011s are well-known as smokers (and occasionally flamers) on start-up.

I once saw a Delta L1011 pushback at IAH, and during start-up of the number two engine, it smoked a little bit at first, but then a "waterfall of flaming fuel" came out of the tailpipe, burning up before it could hit the ramp, and then it all went back over to the usual smoke. I was up in the gate area at the time (catering supervisor for Dobbs House) and some of the comments from those who'd just seen relatives off on that very flight were quite enlightening.

ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
broke
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:04 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Thu May 23, 2002 11:01 pm

What you are seeing is called torching. For some reason, fuel is in the turbine and exhaust (leaking fuel shut-off valve, residual fuel from the previous run, ignition not coming on as quickly as the fuel, fuel control fuel scheduling) and when ignition occurs, this fuel burns off in a flash or torch. Generally, this is not a technical problem, but if someone who does not understand what is happening sees this, all hell can break loose. Planes have been evacuated, fire trucks called out, etc. The Keystone Kops would be envious of the melee that results. If the torching is excessive (it won't stop), the normal procedure is to turn off fuel and ignition and continue to turn the engine with the starter (this is called motoring the engine); this will normally cut off the fuel and ignition source and allow whatever residual fuel is remaining to burn off or blow out of the exhaust. If a fuel shut-off valve is leaking, motoring won't fix the problem as more fuel is feeding the fire. Then you have to shut down and call the fire folks. Unfortunately, in my experience, most of these peole do not know how to fight a tail pipe fire and the result is an unnecessary engine change due to fire firing foam being shot everywhere!! Groan!!
 
wilcharl
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Fri May 24, 2002 5:21 am

reminds me of a 727 apu start up and the pax freaking out....
 
HHHramp
Posts: 84
Joined: Tue Sep 25, 2001 11:21 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Fri May 24, 2002 10:12 am




I was watching NW back a 320 out of the gate the other night when the blue ring of fire could be seen in the engine at start-up. It was only momentary and very contained (the Pax would not have seen it.) After a minute or so, the other engine repeated the show.

BTW... Our training on the 727 specifically covers Pax issues with APU torching
ie: freaking out.

S
 
broke
Posts: 1299
Joined: Wed Apr 24, 2002 8:04 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Fri May 24, 2002 11:31 pm

Concerning 727 APU torching. Since the APU exhaust comes out of the upper surface of the wing on the right side, a torch will definitely get any passenger's attention if they are seated over the wing. Usually, this is most likely to occur when the airplane is taxiing into a gate at the end of leg and the APU is started. The APU installation was an after thought on the 727 and is not intended for inflight operation. It is mounted between the main landing gear wheel wells with it's intake in one wheel well (left I think) and it exhausts out at the right wing just outboard of the fuselage. Originally there was a door that was open during running and closed when the APU was shut down. The door became a maintenance headache and so most airplanes just have a grill in the upper wing skin at the APU exhaust.
 
vc10
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Sat May 25, 2002 2:43 am

On the Concorde, during start up an Electrically driven start fuel pump is used, which delivers fuel regardless of engine RPM, and should Ignition be introduce in any way late the subsequent light up produces a huge flame out of the exhaust. I believe it looks even better if the start up is at night.

regards little vc10
 
srbmod
Posts: 15446
Joined: Tue Mar 20, 2001 1:32 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Sat May 25, 2002 3:55 am

It's a great way to frighten passengers sitting in the terminal, and startle the rampers as well. I've seen the engines on a DC-9 do it a few times, and have even seen it happen on the 717's BR-715 engines as well.
 
wilcharl
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Sat May 25, 2002 4:42 am

another thing to scare pax (i remember at night it would really do it )was the air start cart when I was with FL we would hook it up on the 737 and position it in front of the #2 engine in view of the passengers, it was an old MA1A and it woudl smoke and then torch then finally calm down...


 
AJ
Posts: 2295
Joined: Wed Nov 03, 1999 3:54 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Sat May 25, 2002 8:12 am

Try this one:

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dripstick
Posts: 2320
Joined: Sat Dec 01, 2001 9:43 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Sat May 25, 2002 10:50 am

Another nice pic...


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What's another word for thesaurus?
 
B777av8r
Posts: 30
Joined: Sat Sep 22, 2001 3:17 pm

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Sun Jun 02, 2002 4:50 pm

Actually, we like to 'wetstart' then get a tailpipe fire. The reason is quite simple. We do get tired of the same old fish, chicken and steak on our flights. Many of us have decided that we want a change to the diet and thus have taken to bringing weiners and marshmallows with us on our flights. It kind of gives us the comraderie atmosphere...especially on a night time, long haul flight. We talk about how good the flying was back in the old days and how great it is to be able to share the experiences around a nice warm Pratt, Rolls, GE or Kuznetzov tailpipe. We've found it easier to roast the ole weinies and maollows on the ground before flight. Various types of weiner sticks have been tried for use in the air, so as not to disrupt the flight, but technology hasn't come up with anything that will secure the delicacies at 250Kts.:D

 
wilcharl
Posts: 1156
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Flames During Engine Startup?

Mon Jun 03, 2002 12:00 pm

thats as bad as me roasting marshmellows on the MA-1A

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