Dash8King
Topic Author
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

Fuel Question

Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:20 pm

What type of fuel does say a cessna 150 or 172 use? I did a search and could not find a topic. Also what do they do to fuel to make it Jet fuel? I read that turbo props use Jet fuel is this correct?

Just trying to understand fuel and sorry for so many questions.
 
PW4084
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 7:31 pm

RE: Fuel Question

Mon Aug 12, 2002 4:45 pm

General Aviation aircraft with reciprocating engines like the C-172 or C-150 burn Aviation Gasoline. The gasoline is leaded, 100LL is the standard in the US. So that's an octane rating of 100 and the LL stands for 'low lead'. There are other variants and older/lower compression engines are certified for lower octane ratings, with the proper approval and paperwork you can burn automobile gasoline in your airplane.

Jet Fuel is basically kerosene (so is Diesel), I'm not a chemical engineer but I think that it's cruder than gasoline and is produced earlier in the refining process. It is less volatile than gasoline also. Jet Fuel is more oily than AvGas and it is more dense. Turboprops do indeed burn jet fuel.

I am sure I am leaving out a bunch of the details but there's a start for you.

PW4084
 
Guest

RE: Fuel Question

Mon Aug 12, 2002 5:36 pm

Dear Dash8King -
Jet fuel is essentially diesel fuel with anti-ice additives... I once had a diesel car and had a few tanks filled-up with jet fuel, works great, no problem.
Jet engines can "digest" just about anything liquid that burns, feed them with gasoline or kerosene, or cognac, a jet engine (or turboprop engine) will run perfectly well...
I own a little L-21C Super Cub, I supply myself with gasoline in jerrycans of gasoline from car service stations. That engine can run on 80 octane, I buy "regular" gasoline which is about 85-87 octane, works great and is more inexpensive than aviation gasoline, ... or petrol (if you are from England...)
Happy landings (s) Skipper
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 12:05 am

With larger aircraft like C150-C152-C172 if you want to burn automotive gasoline (Mogas), it best to add some additives to it once in a while, the lead in 100LL (Avgas) (once again according to my A&P mech) is supposed to be lubricate of some sort, and he suggested that if I wanted to goto the Mogas STC in the PA-28 to run a gas aditive every couple of months.

The biggest diffrence between Mogas and Avgas, is that Mogas breaks down quickly, sometimes in as little as 6 months (from when you buy it at the pumps) while with Avgas, there have been cases where they found a 50yo supply that burns just fine. Now this isn't a problem if you burn all you have quickly.

Oh at the glider port, we fill the on-field cars with 100LL, well lets just say none of them would pass emissions tests.

Man talking about this is giving me gas... Big grin
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:56 am

On the other hand, avgas burns just fine in a car. My first real job was as a lineman at a small country airport; after I closed for the evening, I noticed that my car was low on gas for the trip home so I put a couple of gallons of 100/130 in the tank. Really woke that old junker up, for sure.
 
Leftypilot79
Posts: 446
Joined: Thu Jun 20, 2002 6:47 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 3:17 am

I worked as a lineman too. YAY  Laugh out loud But putting 100LL in anything new than say a 1970 automobile would be dumb? (when did they start putting catalytic converters on cars? ) Any new car is certified for unleaded ONLY...putting leaded gas in a car with a CAT is just asking for trouble.


aaron
 
Dash8King
Topic Author
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 1:36 pm

How much more is aviation gas on average per liter. I pay 89cents a liter for vehicle gas.
 
Racers22
Posts: 109
Joined: Wed Jul 04, 2001 6:03 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 2:30 pm

This summer I worked on the line crew at a local airport and we put 100LL in all of our fuel trucks. It definitely showed because they all ran like shit!!!
 
pmk
Posts: 609
Joined: Wed May 26, 1999 10:07 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 10:24 pm

Well here's the pricing at my local airport.

TDZ

100LL $2.88USD/USGAL
Jet A $2.46USD/USGAL


Peter

 
TAA_Airbus
Posts: 491
Joined: Mon Nov 01, 1999 4:34 pm

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:03 pm

100LL really hasnt taken off in australia as yet. Well atleast not on the western sea board.
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Fuel Question

Tue Aug 13, 2002 11:34 pm

Well here in Florida 100LL prices can range from $1.89/gal (self serve) to $2.52/gallon (from the truck), heck I have even see it up to $3.00+/gal (full service I hope).

I mostly fuel up at the $1.89 places, fueling my own plane is a small price to pay to save $10-20 on fuel purchases. Whats best is the FBOs that will reimburse you at a set price, I try to find a cheaper price so I can actually make a little money. Then again, it seems like one of my friend has a map of all the cheap 100LL prices, we is always directing me to cheap fuel.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Dash8King
Topic Author
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:13 am

Wow so Jet fuel is cheaper then 100LL (I forget what that stands for) I would have figured the other way around. But I guess since jets use more fuel that is why they have it like that.
 
bio15
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:10 am

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 5:35 am

>>> I'm not a chemical engineer but I think that it's cruder than gasoline and is produced earlier in the refining process

Just to clarify, during the distillation process of petroleum, the dense kerosene comes after the gasolines, and before the denser lubricant oils.

-bio
 
PW4084
Posts: 287
Joined: Tue Mar 06, 2001 7:31 pm

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 7:41 am

Thanks Bio15, I appreciate the clarification on that. Do you know if kerosene is cheaper than gasoline to produce ?

PW4084
 
Guest

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 9:43 am

Kerosene - diesel fuel - heating oil... all other more inexpensive to produce than gasoline...
Gasoline, is expensive, the higher the octane, the higher the price...
But now, let's see... I am Mr. Exxon (or Esso in some countries), or Mr. Shell...
Supply and demand... so let's put the price up a little bit, to produce that jet fuel...
Dont you worry, the "Oil Sheiks" and Wall Street love each other... they dont say "you and your terrorists..." or "but these Palestinians and Israel..."
They hug each other and make deposits in their Swiss bank accounts...
Let's have a little war (like every other 10 years) so price can go up...
Poor people are the troops in the armies, and the consumer's majority...
(s) Skipper
 
Dash8King
Topic Author
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 10:50 am

What kind of Fuel do the DC-3, DC-4, and C-46 engines use they are (radial right?). I read in Airliners that an airline from my hometown can only operate these planes for another ten years becuase there will no longer be any fuel for that type of engine.
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 11:53 am

Jet engines can "digest" just about anything liquid that burns, feed them with gasoline or kerosene, or cognac, a jet engine (or turboprop engine) will run perfectly well...

Jet fuel (and diesel for that matter) pretty much *is* kerosene.....
 
Guest

RE: Fuel Question

Wed Aug 14, 2002 4:11 pm

Dear Dash8King -
These old DC3, DC4 and C46s engines will run until there is no more gasoline, for them or for cars... they do not require "high octane" gasoline, as far as I believe they run on 80-87 avgas, or, nowadays 100 low lead...
(s) Skipper
 
airplay
Posts: 3369
Joined: Sat Oct 25, 2003 1:58 am

RE: Fuel Question

Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:12 am

Dash8King,

Actually you may be referring to the fact that many airports no longer offer avgas service. This is particularly prevalent in the larger airports and in remote airports in northern Canada, (and possibly many other parts of the world) where many of these aircraft operate.

Many operators have to maintain their own fuel caches which proves to be expensive. Many American private pilots have a rude awakening when they try to purchase avgas at northern airports in Canada.

There is another angle to this as well. Many large compound piston engine aircraft used a high octane (purple) avgas that allowed them to take the most advantage of their high compression. I don't remember what the octane was. Constellations, DC-7Cs and a few others used this fuel.

When the jet age arrived, production of the high octane avgas waned and finally ceased forcing these large piston aircraft to modify performance figures. Higher octane fuels do not mean more power in themselves, they just allow for higher compression ratios in the engines. So don't fool yourself into thinking that higher octane fuel will make your particular engine make significantly more power, but it will reduce the chances of pre-ignition.
 
Guest

RE: Fuel Question

Thu Aug 15, 2002 12:33 am

Theck out this link. It pretty well sums up what we may have to deal with in the next few years.

http://www.aviationnow.com/content/ncof/ncf_n40.htm
 
Dash8King
Topic Author
Posts: 2657
Joined: Wed Nov 21, 2001 8:45 am

RE: Fuel Question

Fri Aug 16, 2002 10:31 am

Thanks for sharing that article Jetguy that was very informative.
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Fuel Question

Fri Aug 16, 2002 12:16 pm

Well I guess there is no added pressure for the JA for GA program. Right now it looks good, but the thing is that the smallest engine that is being produces (at least by our partner) is for the C182 and is turbo-charged.
At worst, you screw up and die.

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 10 guests