flyordie
Posts: 50
Joined: Wed Apr 11, 2001 5:40 am

Airline Career Pilot Programs

Tue Oct 01, 2002 2:20 pm

It's time to put my money where my mouth is...So here it goes. Out of all my relatives (about 50 count), I am the only one to graduate from College. I received a Bachelor's in Civil Engineer and have been working as such for five years. One year after graduating I received my Pvt. Pilot's License. Since then I have flown 100 hours, taken an ATC class and a Citation Systems class (in my pursuit to become a more knowledgeable and better pilot), have acquired the instrument written and will soon begin instrument training. I have a passion for flying, unlike engineering, and now have my sights on pursuing an airline career. I hope I haven't bored you yet, but I feel like my question is similar to that of ERFly on his topic titled, "Pay for Training Program". In a nutshell, I was hoping to get advice on which route to take:

1) Rent to fly and study to become an instructor, instruct for 1000 hours, then hope to fly for a commuter....And eventually an airline?
2) Pay an airline training program about $35,000 to basically receive twin time, acquire instrument license, acquire high altitude/performance endorsement, and walk out with only 200 hours more? Which basically only leaves me at instructor status anyway.

I found many of the responses within ERFly's topic to be very insightful and valuable. This seems to be the place to be to find out anything and everything about aviation. And since I don't have any relatives or friends who know a thing about even Bernoulli's Principle, I turn to you.

I hope the responses not only help me, but also help other amateur aviators with any interests in the wonderful world of Aviation.

Thanks, in advance, for your wisdom and opinions on the matter.

flyordie
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Wed Oct 02, 2002 5:45 am

Don't ask me. I'm just as lost as anyone.

'Speed
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Thu Oct 03, 2002 2:06 am

Best ways to become an airline pilot -
xxx
The BEST is start with the Air Force or the Navy, if you are in the USA, you first get a college education, then fly military for a while, and try to be in a squadron operating airplanes types that exist in the airlines, i.e. C-9, so when you join an airline, you will have lots of experience on... DC-9s.
xxx
Second best is "corporate" - as you complete your CPL+IR, do your "multi engine qualification" and a "Cessna Citation rating" at the same time... in the Citation, this will open the doors to a co-pilot position with corporate or private operators of Citations, and if you remain with them for a while, you will qualify on other airplanes, paid by the employer... when you later apply with airlines, you will have plenty of "turboJET" time... which they like...
xxx
The least attractive is going with "third level" airlines, these airlines called "whatever connection" or "something express"... pay is extremely low, they may have the emblem of a major airline on the airplane, but dont expect any preferential treatment for hire by that major airline that sponsors them... oftentimes your experience will remain limited to propeller aircraft - the fact that you call them TURBINE does not change the fact that they ARE propeller aircraft, NOT a turbojet at all as far as handling... that "turbine" name is music to many here, it does not mean you are a step ahead to the RH seat of a 737... Someone with 1,000 hours of say, Learjet time... is closer to that RH 737 seat than you.
xxx
I am often sitting on selection board for new pilot hires for my airline, as I am their pilot training manager... in initial training by the way, people with "jet" experience have a higher success rate than people without jet time...
xxx
Read my lips  Wink/being sarcastic ... now come all the ifs, and buts... I try to give an advice, been long enough in this industry and I believe knowing quite a bit about it...
Happy contrails -
(s) Skipper


 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Thu Oct 03, 2002 3:30 am

THe best way to start is not with the military for all folks. It is the best largely from a financial standpoint...

Many people that want to fly F18s for the Navy, for ex, tend to lose sight of the fact that, before becoming a pilot, they must have the desire and midset to become a military officer. Worth keeping in mind, for my 2c.
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Thu Oct 03, 2002 4:01 am

Dear Essentialpower -
xxx
Back in 1995 or thereabouts, had the info that Federal Express had hired majority of Navy and Marines pilot, FA-18 jocks as a matter of fact... The ex Air Force new hires were less in numbers...
xxx
"Military" officer and "airline" officer is not "that different"... you take orders, you fly missions, you exercise command by the privilege of your rank. What I have seen is that ex-military pilots are quite compatible with airline jobs... and at least they have an outstanding aviation training backgound behind them... Never heard an ex-F16 jock telling me that pitch is speed and power is altitude or rate of descent... every graduate from "joe blow private pilot academy" in this forum seems to lecture about power and pitch...
xxx
My training was Air Force, where I flew KC-135 (707), the PanAm doors got wide open for me, never looked my log books (just my "Form 5") when I got hired... Then as I had joined the Air Force Reserve, flew EC-135, then the E-3 and later the E-4s (747), as instructor pilot... PanAm gave me an instructor pilot job on 747s BECAUSE of my AFR backgound as instructor on E-4...
xxx
Saying that military background was no help... I fail to differ, the Air Force gave all to me, university degree, outstanding flight training, flight experience, and... an airline job derived from all that... I retired from the Reserves after the end of the Gulf War in 1991, I owed them that, and all that I am...
xxx
Except of basic training and going to play in the mud for a few months when you join the service, there is very little "military" about being an Air Force or Naval aviator...
Happy contrails  Wink/being sarcastic
(s) Skipper
 
JA54123
Posts: 128
Joined: Thu Aug 16, 2001 11:55 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 2:38 am

Dear B747skipper

I am getting ready to graduate with my Bachelors in Marketing and I was wondering if it matters much on the type of degree that one receives or their GPA upon graduation as to whether the USAF would consider someone for Officer Training and becoming a pilot. I have always wondered that and I figure that you are the most qualified to answer this question.

Thanks


Jason
You wouldn't understand, it's a Texas Thang!
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:04 am

Dear Jason -
xxx
I dont know what the USAF does nowadays for officer and pilot selection, my training and Air Force years go back to the 1960s - I got in through a AF ROTC program, this financed most of the university tuitions...
xxx
I still believe the military (AF or Navy) as the best for pilot training, even though your goal is airlines, they give you an outstanding training as pilot, on high performance jets, they feed you, they pay you, what else can you dream of... or like you say, buy a training for some $50,000+ and then qualify for a regional airline, definitely not an easy way, will cost you a fortune, yet you have to survive in training until your first paycheck, some 2 or 3 years later...
xxx
Training in a C-172... or a T-38... what do you think prepares you better... with the Air Force, all the guys want to be F-16 jockeys but, if you are smart, keep it "low key" and get to fly transports-anything instead, anything like C-9 or KC-10, E-3s, that is the best to get you through that door at AA or UAL...
Then when you get your "early out" from the service, stay in the reserves, it is an unemployment insurance... many pilots in airlines are in the reserves.
xxx
Being military pilot is not "yessir" and "dropping bombs"... there are many assignments far from these things... I did my Vietnam years as a tanker pilot in KC-135 refueling the B-52s... based in Philippines and Guam... had a good time and lots of flying...
xxx
And as I said before, my second choice to get to the airlines is flying corporate jets, start with a Citation rating ASAP, get hired as co-pilot by a private jet operator (do some CFI job on the side), and stay a few years with corporate, until you get to be say captain Falcon Jet or... Gulfstream, a friend of mine is a Learjet 31 pilot for a private operator (FAR 91) and gets paid $500 per day in the USA, he flies some 15-20 days a month, anywhere he goes, the owner pays 5 star hotels and meals...
xxx
Realize that you also are closer to airline hiring minimums, with a CPL and 1,000 hours Citation or Learjet time, than with ATP and a "C-310 type rating", that wording "Airline Transport Pilot" on the FAA certificate does not bring you much closer to airlines... turbojet experience does, even with just CPL...
xxx
Beware of these "airline pilot training programs" which are "sponsored" by the regionals... for them it is their source for pilots to whom they can offer low salaries...
xxx
All I can say, I am a pilot in the airline industry since 1969... and I have kept up with current hiring practices and standards... I see who gets hired with what experience, and I ask them questions as to "how did get in that RH seat of the 737"...
xxx
Happy contrails -
(s) Skipper

 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:45 am

You guys are giving me some ideas. Let me run my situation.

My education and work background is in finance and economics. I'm utterly sick of my field and would like to switch into commercial aviation, preferably piloting. I would stick in finance or economics if it was commercial aviation related, but such jobs are as common as Brit with perfect teeth (Just kidding!).

Basically, I would like to be a pilot. Here is what's going against me, I have corrected vision (contacts and glasses) and I have no flying experience.

I am thinking of the US Airforce ROTC program. I'm not really interested in getting another college degree unless it's a masters or something like that. I just want to learn how to fly and pick some hours. Is this possible with less than decent vision and the fact that I'm not going in to get a university education (unless it's flying)?

Another route I am thinking of is the Cathay Pacific or Singapore Airlines cadet programs. From what I've read, their only requirements are a college degree and perfect vision. Though I have heard that cadets with less than stellar vision have gotten into the program. Do any of you know anything about those programs? Do they accept foreigners as well? Also, why don't U.S. airlines offer such? Why is it so difficult to be a pilot in the States (and it seems to be the same case in Canada and Europe)?

I can't really do the corporate thing because I have no flying experience and for the third option, I am not at the age where I can really start from scratch again, which is why a cadet program or the Air Force look most viable to me.

Any comments? Or am I just an old dog where it's too late to learn new tricks?
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 5:27 am

Dear Rai -
In my days, 26 of age was the limit to get in the Air Force pilot training, and vision required was 20/20 minimum...
xxx
I am aware of the cadet training programs such as Singapore and Cathay, but be aware these is for their local citizens...
xxx
In the 1960s, USA airlines had problems finding pilots... Some airlines went as far as "pre-hiring" applicants with PPL, and financing their CPL+IR training, then hiring them... United Airlines did that in 1967-68 period, this was called PAAP - Pilot Advance Acceptance Program...
xxx
In the 1960s, all the European airlines (or most) had their own pilot academies to train zero time pilots... Air France's ENAC, KLM's Vliegschool, Belgium's EAC, all had a valuable program of some 2 years, with some 300 hours time... The training was absolutely free, some even provided a "cadet salary" to pay for basic living expenses and meals... There were numerous applicants, but many busted their admission written exams... I remember also these courses were very high on academic level of training, nothing like the "fast licenses - pay here - get license there" training that are available nowadays...
xxx
Rai - be aware that "schools" who tell you "how to become an airline pilot" are merchants who SELL... therefore they will SELL at any price...
In the 1960s and later, Cessna and Piper produced airplanes like Henry Ford produced cars... they needed customers to buy planes, thereby the PPL training became only geared to qualify people to "buy their products"... In a flight school nowadays, the most important person is not the "chief instructor", it is the VP $ales or the Marketing Managers...
xxx
 Wink/being sarcastic
(s) Skipper
 
Rai
Posts: 1697
Joined: Fri Feb 15, 2008 6:12 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 7:59 am

Hmmm...Basically, what it translates to is that I don't have a shot in hell of ever becoming an airline pilot. Chalk it up to bad luck (my eye-sight) and procrastination (my age). I really wish I knew about these programs when I was younger. I lived in Canada for a number of years and these sorts of things just aren't available up there, nor are they widely advertised. What to do, what to do...
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 12:05 pm

Honestly Rai - the best investment in pilot training is CPL+IR then Citation jet rating, this is the minimum qualification for a somewhat higher level of flight pay or salary... I do not know what the lowest priced CPL training (I always recommend that one in "cheaper" planes when possible, then IR (that one can be done in part on more inexpensive planes as well, part in simulators), then a Citation jet rating, that one is sometimes advertised at $5,000 and 2 weeks of effort, ground + flight training, and the bottom going rate for a "legal copilot" on a Citation - rated - is some $200 per day in USA, all expenses reimbursed, you may be able to find 10 to 15 days of activities per month as such...
xxx
The total investment for you would be from start to end of Citation training to less than $20,000, maybe a little more than $15,000 - and nearly a year's time of study and training - advice: pay attention to academics, it is not just "handling" flight controls, dont try to be the "ace of the base", be an aviation "nerd" instead... hit the books, good training manuals...
xxx
(s) Skipper - all the best to you, keep faith and... motivation.
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 12:44 pm

Unfortunately, at this point in time, all bets are off when it comes to what works and what doesn't. As has been said, the military route is certainly one way to go, but not everyone has the temperment to put up with all that goes along with that option. However, if it works for you then go for it.

What Skipper says about getting a low $$$ Citation type and flying second seat in a corporate jet may have been an option years ago, but not any more. There are plenty of jet charter jobs out there, but one way or another you're going to end up paying your dues - there is no easy way into either the left or right seat of a jet.

As far as corporate jobs go, nearly all of the jobs that I am aware of require much more experience than what the airlines require. For example, our company requires a 4-year degree, an ATP, 4000 hours TT, 2000 multi, and 1000 turbine. Our company is typical and we haven't hired anyone with the "minimums" for a long time. Most of our guys had closer to 7000 or 8000 hours and several are ex-airline types who got tired of the BS.

Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 3:01 pm

Jeyguy - surprise to me these details...
xxx
I expected corporate or fully part 91 private jets to take low time but "rated" people in the right seat, rather than higher time and no rating (i.e. Citation)...
xxx
An Argentina kid went to California to get Citation rating, his total time was less than 400 hours, the owner of the school took him on private flights for some 2 months after he completed the training, he got nearly 50 hours extra training... and he informed me that many ex-trainees get paid $200-250 per day of flying the Citation, the Learjets pay a little higher, $250-300...
xxx
Jetguy, can these young guys make that much in flying right seat with a regional on i.e. a Brasilia... I dont know, I heard regionals are bottom of the totem pole for pay... It is in Argentina... I try to assist many with suggestions but appears that none of the suggestions work, then...
xxx
Aerolineas, Austral and Lapa are very picky, a 737 type rating is often an open door for applicants, regardless of total flight time, ATP or CPL does not matter - I often judge applicants by how good they do in a 737 simulator... while another will prefer "a straight type rating" better than 500 hours jet time without the rating... beats me - I look at airmanship, he looks at ratings, and the third idiot will go for ... flight hours ... I have "selected" a few new hires in the past... 8 out of 10 completed training, their selection standards does not seem to get such good "success rates"... We have a lot of failures with new hires who never flew turbojets...
xxx
(s) Skipper
 
N757ST
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:17 pm

747 Skipper- no offence, but I have to disagree with some of your statements.

In the United States, virtually no one will hire you into the right seat of any jet until you have about 1000+ hours. The citation rating I will warn people against, as it is probably not the way to go.

The military is your first choice- it is the cheapest, and one of the most rewarding ways to get there. After that, if your goal is a major airline, I believe that getting your cfi/ii/mei are probably the best and safest way to go. Build some hours, then fly part 135, after 1200 hours as a 135 captain. Then move into either the regionals or the fractionals, fly some jets or turboprops, build that turbine time, and hope the economy is good and the majors are hiring.

I also have to disagree with your first post that the regionals all fly "props" and it is not good time. I think I will quote Doug from jetcareers and say that the airlines are not looking for the jet time as much as the PIC time, remember that the airlines are not hiring a jet pilot, they are hiring a future captain. And in any case, almost all the "express" carriers are flying jets, many are all jet and most will eventually be all jet.

Besides, I believe that there is something to be learned in being a flight instructor. You will learn far more then your students, building a deep understanding and a well built foundation that you will utilize throughout your career.

It is my opinion that the best site on the web to get this info, and from a much higher experienced source is directly from jetcareers.com. Doug is a very nice guy and all the stuff on his site is right on.
 
N757ST
Posts: 422
Joined: Sat Feb 16, 2002 6:00 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 4:27 pm

For the last message, I am not trying to imply that you are inexperienced skipper, I was implying that I am not as experienced and that Doug probably has some of the best columns on how to get there that exist.
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 10:03 pm

Ricardo,
You asked about flight instructing. I personally think it's wise. As in any teaching situation, it's always the teacher who learns the most. The same thing applies in aviation. Getting your CFI and actively instructing for a while will teach you things about flying that you will only learn through instructing. In my case, I had an ATP and over 3,000 hours before I got my CFI. I thought that somehow I had "dodged a bullet" by being able to go directly into Part 135 (charter) flying after I got my commercial and instrument rating. I was wrong. I ended up getting my CFI certificate so that I could keep my hand in flying while I went to school full time to finish up my degree. I learned a lot and to this day the lessons are very valuable and useful. Don't avoid becoming a CFI, in my opinion it is a valuable step in your aviation career.

As to how long to be an active CFI? That's a very good question. My personal opinion is that you'll probably get about all your going to get out of flight instructing after 500 to 1000 hours. There is a big difference between 5,000 hours of experience and 1 hour of experience repeated 5,000 times. CFI's tend to fall into the latter category. Most employers look for a pilot who has "been around the block" a few times. In other words, someone who "been there and done that".

How do you get that initial experience? There are as many ways as there are pilots, but unless you’re military or very lucky it will mean that you’re going to spend some time flight instructing, then on to flying freight or charter, single-pilot, in clapped out Navajos, twin-Cessnas, or heaven forbid, twin-Beeches. Just as good, if not better, is flying for a commuter. Although these are definitely not the glamour jobs, those guys quickly learn what it is to go around the block a few times. A few years of that kind of flying and they're ready for almost anything else that comes along. It only gets easier from that point.


To make it in this business you have to be very focused, almost fanatical. It's rare that you ever hear of anyone having a successful aviation career who stumbled into it because he/she didn't have anything better to do.

To answer Skipper’s question, definitely not going to walk up to a corporate chief pilot with a "wet" commercial license or ATP and get a job. Like anything else, you've got to pay your dues and get some experience. This isn’t the military and we don't do "ab initio" training. There aren't very many, if any, "thousand hour wonders" in corporate cockpits these days – the insurance companies have made sure of that. Same thing goes for “cheapie” type-ratings. You better have something issued by FlightSafety or Simuflite or you’re just kidding yourself.

You will have a lot of career options to choose from. Take your time and investigate them all. Although many people focus on airline flying, it isn’t the only game in town. The post 9/11 world will be very challenging for airlines and I believe that it’s going to get much worse before it gets any better. As far as any new hiring by the airlines, there are a lot of pilots out on furlough with more on the horizon. It’s not a very pretty picture right now. Will things improve? Of course they will, but it isn’t going to happen over night.

On of the bright spots in aviation right now is the corporate segment. At one time corporate salaries were significantly lower that the airline's. This isn't necessarily true any more. Granted, there are a few individuals with each major airline who will make a quarter million a year; but we have those too – just not as many. I know of several pilots who were flying for 121 carriers who left their airlines and went corporate. For qualified pilots starting corporate salaries are in the high $90K’s and I know several friends who started at over $100,000. In my case, I make about what an experienced Southwest captain makes. Today the major differences aren’t necessarily financial. Personally, once the novelty of flying “big” airplanes wore off, I found airline flying boring; but, to each his own.

Bottom line is you're going to find yourself in a very good position if you take the time to make yourself marketable.

Jetguy
 
UPS763
Posts: 195
Joined: Wed Nov 14, 2001 7:00 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Oct 05, 2002 11:11 pm

Jetguy,
If you dont mind me asking, what was the path you decided to take and how did you go from your CPL and Instrument to a 135 without working as a CFI? In my case I was thinking of joining the NG, had a recruiter come to the house and talk to me. I decided against it as I already had my private and instrument in a helicopter and I would have to start all over again. I will take my commercial ride this month and then on to the CFI and work for the company that has trained me. I would also like to do some work flying off a tuna boat sometime, but I shall see. Also Jetguy, I was just curious as to if your flight department operates any helicopters? Thanks for your time, it is much appreciated.

Matt
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sun Oct 06, 2002 12:22 am

Matt...
No helicopters unfortunately - I'd love to learn to fly one. Getting in a position to make yourself "marketable" can be pretty intimidating. The schooling, the training, the expense, gaining the experience, etc. The secret is just take it a step at a time. Set goals and work at them until you've accomplished them. Every one starts at the same place with the same amount of experience. It usually all works out - eventially.

In my case, I worked as a bag boy and stocker in a grocery store to earn the money for flying lessions. I was a sophomore in high school and my mother had to drive me to the airport for my lessions. My goal was to get my private license, then go into the Air Force and fly transports and move from there on to the airlines. I soloed right after I turned 16, got my PPL as soon as I turned 17. I was in the AFROTC while I was in college and everything was progressing according to plan when one day I was notified that the Air Force was cutting back on pilot training and that our training slots had been cancelled. (This was as the war in Vietnam was winding down.) I was given the chance to get out of my comittment which I did.

So much for my career plan. At that point, I was 21 and had a grand total of about 500 hours. I ended up taking a loan to finance my commercial, instrument, multiengine and CFI training. I had just finished up my Comm/Inst when, out of the blue, I got a call from a friend offering me a job flying air tours through the Grand Canyon. I spent the next 3 years flying tours and misc. charter flights. During that three year period I ended up with just over 3,000 hours total time and an ATP. Shortly after my stint as a canyon pilot my CFI and finished up my BS degree. I spend a couple of years flying charter and instructing. In the early 1980's I spent 3 years flying air ambulance. This was easily the most personally rewarding job I ever had, but three years is about all most people can handle it - it can be pretty emotionally draining.

After that I spent a year or so in corporate flying. During this period I had my resumes out and I ended up being hired by one of the majors. I wasn't there too long. It was pretty neat to have finally achieved my goal, but after the "novelity" of flying a big airplane wore off I realized that it was a pretty sucky flying job. I found it to be pretty boring and without too much challenge. At that point I decided that I would leave the airlines and go back to corporate flying. That was 14 years ago and my only regret with the ways things turned out is that I'll never get to fly my two dream airplanes, the C-5A and the 747 - no other airline equipment has any interest for me. Why would you want to drive a bus when you can drive a Ferrari?  Innocent

Jetguy
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sun Oct 06, 2002 2:42 am

Dear Friends -
xxx
Lots of valid comments here - appears that we digress quite a bit as to our own opinions, and actually, we all may have quite a few correct answers...
xxx
Getting hired somewhere depends on YOU, your qualifications, and also depends on the people to select you... I was on the board for the last three pilot hiring selection sessions.
xxx
It takes a few days for the selection process - (1) written exam - (2) medical - (3) simulator test - (4) interview... I took active part of the selection with the simulator test and the interviews...
xxx
You know my ideas and philosophies in aviation, I dont give much importance of hours in lightplanes beyond 500 hours time... nor am I impressed by ATP as such... I judge by what I see in the simulator (a 737, or a 727) and with the interview and the applicant's logbook at hand, I have a pretty good idea if the applicant will be succesful in being trained as a 737 or MD80 first officer...
xxx
I have to say that I dont mind hiring a young fellow who just got a 737 type rating last month, and has only 677.5 hours total time... What you all say about hiring practice is evidently true in your environment... here it is different and in airlines, it is always different... Our "hiring minimums" are just guidelines. I put a lot of emphasis on academic background and "turbojet time" as my own yardstick, I pay no attention to total flight time.
xxx
I was at the office yesterday, and looked at the pilot list in the 737 and MD80 and saw 23 names of first officers which were selected with "my blessings" and I am aware that I failed with 2 in the course of their training in the past years... not to bad a record for me despite my controversial ideas...
xxx
Remember we are all here because we love what we do and will not fail to help those who want to join us in the air...
 Wink/being sarcastic
(s) Skipper
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sun Oct 06, 2002 11:14 pm

Ups673,

Drop me an email, would you? I've got some helicopter questions for you.

Thanks,
Mike
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Tue Oct 08, 2002 11:02 pm

Many airlines are using the Factored Hours approach. We will shortly commencing recruiting a number of crews, and have decided to use this as well - click on the link below to see how it works.

http://www.flylionair.com/pilots.htm

B747Skipper - I'd appreciate your thoughts/comments, please?
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Wed Oct 09, 2002 3:04 am

Dear SAS23 -
xxx
Definitely a valid approach to pilot selection, but as long as the recruiter(s) also abide by some amount of flexibility...
xxx
To my opinion, this Factored Hours is a set standard to make an initial flight crew selection, but should be flexible enough to be able to consider those applicants that are close to meet the minimums of experience...
xxx
As an example, 500 hours of "xyz time" means it is a standard, but does not mean that it warrants rejection of an applicant with 490 hours of "xyz time", as that applicant may be actually more qualified, and be profiled as individual with much greater potential than one who meets or exceeds the requirements.
xxx
Hiring "direct entry" presents problems different than the questions many ask here about "how to become an airline pilot"... The specific advertisement from Lionair requires L-1011 qualified flight crews, or crewmembers having similar experience, i.e. DC-10 which can be retrained to operate L-1011s... it is unlikely that pilots with "no jet experience" could be drawn in such a training program... They will train qualified crews to fly L-1011s, but not designed for training of pilots with strictly a general aviation background...
xxx
As an example, I do train pilots (who are qualified on B-737 or MD-80s) to fly the B-747... an easy task in reality... The first minute in the classroom, our trainees already know "what to look for" in the aircraft manuals they receive, they dont ask "do we have to memorize this section...?" - give me a manual of an airplane I never flew, say a DC-9 - and within hours I would have a good idea about what to study...
xxx
Hiring pilots "ab initio" or "direct entry" is a completely different task. Amounts of experience is not always a concern - as an example, I am personally unable (mentally) to be retrained to a 2 crewmember aircraft... I had my entire career with a flight engineer "keeping me out of troubles"... My airline, at times thinks about retiring the 747 Classics... I would retire from flying if it was the case, but continue in management for a few years, until the day it is time for me to enjoy beers at the beach in Brazil, and forget about airplanes.
xxx
When I was a young co-pilot, I met DC-6 captains basically unable to adapt theirselves to 727 jets... now I am an old 747 captain refusing to consider a posting on A-340s... for the same reason...
xxx
What I find the most drastic problem - particularly in the USA, since we have many here in the forum, from that country (and I was from there as well), is the low level of "academics" and "theory knowledge" of pilots trained at the CPL and ATPL levels. It is as if the FAA "approved schools" are run by a McDonald's type management team... USA is a "business nation"... it is in the American blood... classroom time does not sell airplanes and flight time...
 Smile/happy/getting dizzy
(s) Skipper
 
Guest

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:54 pm

B747Skipper - many thanks for that. It's interesting that you identify the lack of academic/theoretical knowledge of people having gone the FAA course - as you know, this is the primary difference between the FAA and JAA system. European pilots spend considerably more time on the theory of flight and aircraft operations (including the theory of piston and rotary engines - which has dubious value if you're going to be operating a 747!) and has notoriously tough exams without any aid from textbooks; whereas people taking FAA exams not only can use textbooks to help them, but also have multiple choice questions that narrow down the range of possible answers!

No wonder the JAA regards an FAA ATP as being equivalent to their CPL!  Big grin
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Wed Oct 09, 2002 8:37 pm

This may not be relevant, but for guys and girls in colleges thinking about switching to airline flying...

As previously mentioned... in some places, direct entry is an option. I have a friend with an Economics Bachelor Honours from Cambridge Uni on scholarship... SMART guy, but a few months after he graduated during the holidays, he decided to stuff the 9-5 desk job waiting for him in Hong Kong (paying him 10x how much he's earning now) and signed up for Cathay Pacific. Got selected, and is now flying 744s with Cathay as S/O maybe F/O now. He's now 28, and started his flight at 23, and type rated on the 744 just before his 25th.

Keep your options open... and never give up... other "case studies" are available if you want  Big grin

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
aerlingusa330
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2000 6:40 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sun Jul 25, 2004 4:29 am

Hey guys,
I am reading all of these posts and am gathering as much as I can from them. I also know how many ways there are nowadays to persue your airline pilot dreams. Right now I know for sure that I want to be an airline pilot and have known since I was very young. I'm a senior in high school right now and I want to ask you all what some of the better options are - other than the military. I don't know whether to go ahead and start now on my private pilot's license and work on it so that I have it for when I graduate from college or wait and do it all at once after college, or what. I know that I want to go to a "regular" college and obtain a degree (i.e. not ERAU). Thanks,

Steve
Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
 
nightflyer
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 9:23 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sun Jul 25, 2004 12:06 pm

I went the civilian route because I wanted to get to the majors as soon as possible. I'm now flying right seat in a widebody and I'm in my early 30's. If I would have gone through the military then I would still be in right now. Now, I was extremely lucky in that my timing was very good concerning my career progression. This was all prior to 9/11. In this day and age I would highly recommend trying to go for a Guard slot and also fly for the regionals. That way you can get the best of both worlds, you'll have furlough protection with your Guard position, and you won't have to serve a ten year active duty commitment (or however long it is now). The pilots coming out of the military aren't any better than the civilian pilots so don't think any one route is better than the other. It really depends on what your goals are and what suits you the best. Another very important item is networking throughout your career. This is one thing the military guy are very good at. You never know when some student you soloed will be in a position to help you out somewhere down the road so don't burn any bridges and network network network! Good luck ta ya.

NightFlyer
 
LHcapt2007
Posts: 227
Joined: Tue Mar 09, 2004 3:55 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sun Jul 25, 2004 11:28 pm

Amazing posts all.

There are many examples of sucess out there. We can all name at least one person that "got there" the easy way or via paying their dues.

I believe that determination and desire dictate if someone makes it where they want to be.

LHcapt2007
TNCM
 
MD11Engineer
Posts: 13916
Joined: Sun Oct 26, 2003 5:25 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:12 am

First, welcome back, Skipper!  Smile/happy/getting dizzy

Now to my post:
I´m 37 years old, and as many of you guys noticed by now, aircraft mechanic, licenced both to FAA and JAR rules. Years ago I tried to get into ATPL schooling, but I couldn´t afford the course (still can´t today, nobody would give me an unsecured loan over 150,000 Euros to stop working for two years and go to school). I thought of going the way of a F/E, esp. under JAR rules I´ve got already half of the necessary qualifications, my JAR 66B1 licence and many years of A/C maintenance experience. Now I would have to do the JAR FCL ATPL theory, then 25 hrs crew coordiation training, and 50 hours F/E training on the respective aircraft type (25 hrs possible in a sim), afterwards I would have to fly 100 hours under supervision of a check F/E.
the problem is that there are not many airlines around in Europe operating aircraft with an F/E.
The other option for me would be the FAA F/E exam, I´ve got the textbooks at home, it doesn´t look too difficult (nice thing is that the jet exams are done using a 727 and I´ve got a 727 to play with at work, I can try all the systems  Smile/happy/getting dizzy ), but as a non-American I would need a letter from an airline stating that hey would employ me and that they can´t find an American citizen to fly their planes to get approved for the exams y the FAA (I had the same problem with my A&P licence exams, but I got a letter then from the locl manager of a big American carrier my compamny is working for). I know that time is runnig away, so I´ve got to make a decision soon, but the thing is that I´d like to have a challenge in life, I don´t want to spend the rest of my working life doing turnarounds for this carrier.

Jan
Je Suis Charlie et je suis Ahmet aussi
 
goboeing
Posts: 2429
Joined: Mon Jun 05, 2000 5:31 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Mon Jul 26, 2004 11:19 am

MD11Engineer,

I was surprised to see skipper back too, until I noticed that this thread was started nearly two years ago.  Crying

Nick
 
aerlingusa330
Posts: 224
Joined: Thu Dec 14, 2000 6:40 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Mon Jul 26, 2004 12:35 pm

NightFlyer~

How and when did you start your flight training? How old were you when you started and what was the exact route that you took to get you into that right seat? Thanks a lot,

AerLingusA330
Shamrock 136 heavy cleared for takeoff runway niner.
 
thegreatchecko
Posts: 689
Joined: Sat Mar 06, 2004 3:34 pm

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Mon Jul 26, 2004 1:14 pm

So whatever happened to Skipper? I do miss reading his posts.  Sad

I have to say there is no easy way about it. Its hard work, dedication, sweat, tears, blood, everything. Aviation, you have to love it to do it. You can pay lots of money, but even that wont be easy, you still have to pay off the loans, thats not worth it if aviation is not your passion.

There is no easy way short of buying your own boeing and doing all your training in it.

GreatChecko
"A pilot's plane she is. She will love you if you deserve it, and try to kill you if you don't...She is the Mighty Q400"
 
nightflyer
Posts: 86
Joined: Mon Sep 24, 2001 9:23 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Tue Jul 27, 2004 4:07 am

AerLingusA330,
I started flying taking flying lessons when I was 16. My friend's father was a flight instructor and owned his own Cessna 172. He gave me an awesome deal for flight training, $35/hr for aircraft and flight instructor, that I couldn't pass up so I got a job and started flying. I became a private pilot a little over a year later between my junior and senior year in high school. I then went on to Louisiana Tech University and entered into their Professional Aviation Program. About a year into college my father was layed off from his job so we were very tight on money. I went into the Air National Guard to help pay for school and maybe have a shot at a pilot slot in my Guard unit. I spent a little over a year and a half in military training until I was back in school. I finished up all my ratings (instrument, commercial, multi-engine, CFI, etc.) at Louisiana Tech and I flight instructed there my last year of school. I continued to flight instruct for another six months after graduation and then I was hired on with Continental Express. I had a little over 1000 hours and 215 multi-engine at that time. I started out as a first officer on the EMB120 Brasilia. I upgraded to captain on the 120 about a year and a half later and it was at this time that I decided not to pursue the pilot slot in the military since I was already logging valuable turbine pilot in command time. Three years into my Coex pilot career I became a captain on the EMB145. I also was a line checkairman and ground instructor on the EMB145. I was sending out applications to all the major airlines and FedEx was the first to give me a call for an interview. I head down to Memphis for the interview and I guess they must have liked me since they gave me a job offer a week later. I was very lucky because at that time FedEx was hiring a lot of pilots and I they gave me the option of going to the back seat of the 727 or DC10. I chose the DC10 and stayed in that seat for two years. Two years into my FedEx career I was in school to become a first officer on the MD11 and that is where I am now. The funny thing is that my ultimate goal was to go to American or Delta since I live in the Dallas/ Ft. Worth area but FedEx called first so I took that. The old saying goes, "You always take the first job offer." Well, it's a good thing I did because I would be out of a job right now if I had gone to one of those carriers. I'm not sure if you wanted that much detail about my career but there it is. Take care.

NightFlyer
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Thu Jul 29, 2004 9:04 am

B747skipper: How do you get the Tanker Jobs and stuff in the Air Force? I heard only the people that do the best on the first stage test get the jobs they want and then the two groups go there seperate ways. I have no desire to fly F-18 but I would love to fly KC-135 C5 767 tanker! Do the best get the tankers or the fighters. I heard there is a dream list where you put down the aircraft you want and you might get in back.
"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)
 
GRZ-AIR
Posts: 540
Joined: Sat Apr 14, 2001 3:02 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Fri Jul 30, 2004 3:51 am


I have recently finished school and therefore deciding how to proceed/beginn my aviation career.

As I am from Austria, I could go to the states for an ab-initio training (Flight Safety etc..)

Or I could go to University here and then go to ERAU to finish a degree as well as flight training.

Or I could do the ab initio training here in Europe, which is more expensive than in the U.S.

How hard is it to work in the U.S. as a European foreigner?

Do you need a "collage degree" to work for Airlines ? Thing is, my high school degree in Austria is pretty much equivalent to a Collage degree in the states, don't know if they accept it however!?


Can anybody here tell me how the chances are to work for airlines such as Gulf Air, Emirates and other non Europe/U.S.A airlines that are "better off" than the rest of the aviation world?

I have the financial means, the hard thing is the choice. I have waited to start my PPL (I am currently flying gliders) as it wouldnt make any sense if I were to start an ab initio flight training course soon..

so give me some answers please !!!!!

THANK YOU VERY MUCH !

btw. you can also email me at pilot@just-flying.com

Regards,
Patrick
When I joined A.net it was still free, haha ;).
 
flymia
Posts: 6806
Joined: Thu Jun 14, 2001 6:33 am

RE: Airline Career Pilot Programs

Sat Jul 31, 2004 11:18 am

GRZ-AIR: I believe it is very hard to get a commercial job in America if you are a foreigner. Also if you want to fly for major airline in the US no matter where
you are from it is 100% better that you have a 4 year college degree.
I really don't know how the industry for jobs is in other countries. All I know is there are not many jobs in the United States but there will be many more coming since it is projected that the US airlines RJ fleets will double in the next 15-20 years. Great news for me the more RJ's the more jobs!
don't worry if you work hard and study good in school and get all your ratings and get a lot of hours don't know how many you need. Then you should get a job.
In the US unless you go through some of the special airline training programs Regional pilots when first hired have around 1500-1700TT with 100-200 Twin some with even 350 with your commercial twin of course. But they prefer ATP but many new hired Regional pilots don't have it. The majors need atleast 2500TT with 1000 Turbine.

"It was just four of us on the flight deck, trying to do our job" (Captain Al Haynes)

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 14 guests