mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:08 am

I flew this Sunday Oct 6.2002 on AA flt 1886 from MIA-LGA.

The Left engine started no problem.

But then we sat on the a/c for 25 minutes before the Capt. came on to say that they needed another "smart or start" card in order to get the right engine started and thus get the air conditioning on too. (We were broiling on the plane)

7 minutes later he came on again to tell us that a second card disnt work and that the third was being used.

The 3rd one worked.

Could someone please explain to me, in somewhat laymens terms:

-how these engines are started?
-What was this card?
-And do all commercial planes need a sort of card or access to get the engines humming? I dont want to insult anyone here but are these's "cards" analagous to car keys?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
shark
Posts: 52
Joined: Thu Jun 23, 2005 10:24 pm

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:30 am

Well you misunderstood the Capt. He was not looking for a smart/start card. He needed a start cart. This is a cart which has a diesil engine or a small turbine to supply air to the aircraft. It can be used to run the air conditioning system or to start the engines which require a sorce of pressurized air to turn the engine for start. The MD-80 requires about 30 - 35psi for engine start. The reason the start cart was needed was the apu was inop. The apu is the normal source of air to run the airconditioning when on the ground and to start the engines. Sometimes you have to use one or two carts before you find one that will supply the correct pressure.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:41 am

Thanks for the clarification Shark. Start Cart, got it. Like jumper cables to a car or a crash cart in the OR (bad analogies, I know)

-And do all commercial planes need a sort of card,keys or access to get the engines humming?
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Guest

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 9:25 am

Basically you need power in the form of ground or APU power and air to turn the turbine engine, and at the specified N2 (depends on the aircraft) turn on the fuel. Don't need keys or anything of the sort... starting a jet isn't like starting a car. You don't turn an ignition. It is a multi-step process that boils down to throwing the right levers at the right time.
 
Guest

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 12:10 pm

Most airplanes (airline jets) require air from a start cart (same unit can also provide air to air conditioning packs)... or an APU... We can also do a start without external electrical power... we call that a "battery start"...
xxx
In the old days - Comets and Caravelles, the starters were electrical (110 VDC) - yes DC... they had a bank of batteries normally wired in parallel to provide for 28 VDC, but with a lever, these batteries could be switched to be wired in series, to obtain the 110 VDC which was required to start engines... That special electrical power requirement was a problem for many airports where Comets and Caravelles were not "usual airplanes"...
xxx
Bizjets have electrical 28 VDC starters, up to the Gulfstream size planes...
(s) Skipper
 
JohnM
Posts: 379
Joined: Sat Feb 24, 2001 12:35 pm

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 1:51 pm

Of course the Army has be a little bit different. We have keys that are required to be "on" to allow the ignition exciter to be powered. If you see a very short start sequence on a UH-1, and then it cranks normally, the key was not turned on. It gives the crew chief the chance to loose something else to mess the day up!
 
A320-Tech
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:49 am

Abnormal Engine Starts

Wed Oct 09, 2002 4:10 pm

One thing that puzzles me is if he needed just a huffer (Start Cart) why then didn't he just perform a cross bleed start. This used to be normal proceedure in the DC-9-30s I used to work on. The only thing I can think of is that his start valve was shot and needed a tech to manually open it and close it during the start sequence.


Just a thought

A320-Tech
 
EssentialPowr
Posts: 1646
Joined: Wed Sep 06, 2000 10:30 pm

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 5:09 pm

"Most airplanes (airline jets) require air from a start cart (same unit can also provide air to air conditioning packs)... or an APU... We can also do a start without external electrical power... we call that a "battery start".."

To clarify, a "battery start", for "airline jets", means a battery to start the (DC starter/generator) APU, and then air off the APU to start the engines.
 
mikeclod
Posts: 270
Joined: Wed Dec 19, 2001 4:03 pm

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Wed Oct 09, 2002 6:07 pm

Hello, this is just a thought, but some of the older air start's, were basically just an air bottle. You actually have to plug it in to charge it. Maybe, that's why it took three of them! I used to work at an FBO that had one of these, if a military plane (like a t-37/38 or whatnot) came in we would have to borrow one from an airline to have the capability to start it. What I'm trying to say, is that our "air bottle" could not charge itself on the ramp. Most of the newer ones are forced air, they basically are a large air compressor, they just push air. The older ones just "held" the air, like an air bottle. Anyway, just a thought.
Mikeclod
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Thu Oct 10, 2002 11:44 am

I appreciate the clarification from all of you. Thank so much.

It was a great flight once the engine started  Big thumbs up. I acutally posted about it in tech ops if anyone wants to have a look. Actually, it's more about memorable flights.

Thanks you all again so much. All the best, mirrodie
Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Thu Oct 10, 2002 2:08 pm

The must have had a couple of valves (Aug or X-feed) on MEL, because I can't see any other reason why he didn't just do a crossbleed start.
 
A320-Tech
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:49 am

MELs

Fri Oct 11, 2002 1:51 am


"Augmentation Valve" ..... UUUUUUhhhhhhhggggg ... 'You want me to fit back there?'
I still have scars from doing that!
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Fri Oct 11, 2002 6:52 am

A320-how much work do u guys do in house??
I'm assuming that u work @jetBlue.
If not, my mistake.
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Fri Oct 11, 2002 11:50 am

Every Engine will require an engine induction at times if the APU is not working right, or is not working at all. Alot of airlines will keep an engine running at the gate if the APU is not working (I have witnessed this with Southeast and ASA in GPT). That way they can do a X-Bleed Start with the other engine. I heard AirTran and TWA had to get a specially manufactured "Start cart" just for the BR715 because it requires so much air during start-up. (Really, it requires the breath of a giant just to get the thing turning). That engine is a monster in a baby's cowling. Before TWA got theirs, They had to use 2 of the DC9s Start Carts just to get the BR715 to even remotely begin to start.
Puhdiddle
 
wilcharl
Posts: 1151
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Fri Oct 11, 2002 12:38 pm

the start cart for the 715 is nothing special it is a stewart and stephenson 425 HPdiesel unit that drives a screw drive compressor. its actaully the smallest airstart SS makes ... what will not work on a -715 is an older turbine airstart like the legendary MA-1A it does take two of those with a y coupler to get it turning ... SSTug owns a lot of FL stock BTW
 
A320-Tech
Posts: 38
Joined: Sun Jan 27, 2002 11:49 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Fri Oct 11, 2002 12:58 pm

Cdfmx,

We currently have a staff of approximately 100 tech's spread out between JFK, LGB, OAK, FLL, MCO and a few others, the majority being in JFK. We're doing A checks on the overnights, we also have the capability for light structural work with the tech's & equipment that we currently have. We'll be growing those capabilities in time as we continue to grow. It seems like we're always hiring tech's, which is a great thing in these times.

A320
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Sat Oct 12, 2002 5:05 am

The Left engine started no problem.

But then we sat on the a/c for 25 minutes before the Capt. came on to say that they needed another "smart or start" card in order to get the right engine started and thus get the air conditioning on too. (We were broiling on the plane)


Ok, Somebody correct me if I am wrong but doesn't the #1 (Left Engine) control the Air Conditioning, Hydraulics ETC... Isn't that why they started it first?
Puhdiddle
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: MD-80 Engine Failed To Start-> Start Cards?

Sat Oct 12, 2002 6:29 am

I missed something in the original post. Mirrodie, said they needed "another" start cart. So I guess Shark was right. APU was inop.
I still can't figure out what was wrong with that aircraft. I mentioend without thinking it could have been an aug valve, but it could never be that. Maybe a x-feed valve, but MX could have open it for x-bleed and then secured it. maybe they didn't have MX there. Interesting one.

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