Mr.BA
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How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Thu Oct 17, 2002 5:05 pm

Hi guys,

I apologise for bringing this up again. I do recall about someone starting a thread on this but I can't find it after some searching.

Anyway, would really like to know how did this pilot managed to straighten out after touching down at such an angle? Given it's speed it would have ran straight into the habour? Photographer Colin said it slid sideways on the runway but how is this possible? The runway is not kilometres wide, how did he actually bring the plane back to the left so much even at full aileron and rudder?


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Photo © Colin Parker



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Photo © Colin Parker



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Photo © Colin Parker



Finally would like to ask B747 drivers how sensitive is the B747 in maneuvering? Say in crosswind landings, sudden changes in wind direction or speed will result in the plane yawing or 'rolling', is it possible t make sudden and small changes in pitch and roll to stay on track? On landing roll, say crosswind is at 30 knots, does the plane really slide off the centre line if ailerons are not put into the wind and rudder at the opposite?

Thanks a lot!

alvin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
FredT
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Thu Oct 17, 2002 6:47 pm

Alvin,
as for rudder authority: When the mains (well aft of the CoG) are dragged sideways across the runway it is bound to create quite a yaw moment to help the rudder get the aircraft straightened out...  Smile

Still wouldn't want to be onboard though.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
saintsman
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Thu Oct 17, 2002 8:13 pm

Would the pilot be tempted to use an asymetric reverse thrust in this situation?
 
PPGMD
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:16 pm

The boxes don't mind, but your boss (and whatever unlucky sap that has to repair and inspect it) porbally does.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
FredT
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Thu Oct 17, 2002 10:57 pm

Saintsman,
reverse thrust takes a moment to kick in. Until the engines have spooled up from their touchdown RPM, the reversers really only cancel out (at least part of) the residual idle thrust of the engines. I don't know how fast the reversers would kick in on whatever engines are on that 747, and I don't think it would help much. Besides, I really hope the pilot in the above situation had both hands on the yoke and wasn't fiddling about with the power levers! Big grin

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:39 am

Hello Alvin -
xxx
The "size" of the aircraft, whether a 747 or a J3C Cub does not really matter, in a sense that all is in proportion - i.e. size of flight controls, power of the engines... I do not see anything spectacular about these pictures of that landing aircraft...
xxx
Granted that it is advisable to be "stabilized" some 500 ft AGL for any given approach, but here we see a visual landing by a pilot probably quite familiar with his aircraft... and conditions were probably ideal as well.
xxx
For aircraft such as the 747, or the DC8 (particularly the 71/73 series), the limiting factor is "outboard engines" when banking aircraft in the nose high attitude, which brings these engines cowlings close to the ground. I would always recommend a flare and touchdown in "wings level attitude", even if it means some amount of crab into a crosswind.
(s) Skipper
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:22 pm

Thanks everyone for the replies, really appreciate it!
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CX Flyboy
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Fri Oct 18, 2002 9:58 pm

I would say that landing was pretty spectacular!! I certainly don't want to do any like that!!

Look at his point of touchdown compared to the top of the Thai MD11 tail, then look at where he is in the next photo, and you can see how far he has slid sideways.

Boeing actually recommends landing on a wet runway in a crosswind like that. The crab angle will take itself out upon touchdown. On a dry runway however, land 45 degrees off the runway like that and you are bound to do serious damage to your tyres and possibly risk a pod strike, which happened in this case.

The rudder on the 747 is very large, and it would help to straighten out, but the majority of the straightening would have been done by the gear and just the way the aircraft is built. Nevertheless, you wouldn't want to do landings like that every day!!
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:21 pm

Hi Cx flyboy,

Thanks for the reply. How did he end up like that? Cross wind from his right?

Cheers!
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CX Flyboy
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Fri Oct 18, 2002 11:34 pm

Well, if you look at the windsock, there is only a slight crosswind from the right, which should not be a problem for any pilot. Kai Tak was difficult in the best of times and if you did not get it right, you could find yourself still trying to get onto centerline way past the threshold. This NCA appears to have done this, and going from being relatively lined up to being way off the runway heading in such a short time he probably used rudder to align himself to the runway....with the results shown here.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:03 am

Pardon me for asking this. I've never seen any pilots imput rudder to align the plane with the runway, it's always ailerons that do the job. Any idea why it is not recommended to use rudder to center yourself or point yourself straight at the runway before touchdown?

Thanks!
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FredT
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 12:33 am

Mr.BA,
you can handle a crosswind in two ways. One is to fly in aligned with the runway, holding the upwind wing low to slip into the wind and remain on the runway centerline. The other is to point the nose of the aircraft into the wind to compensate for the crosswind. The former is common practise in GA but less used on airliners for a number of reasons:

- Pax don't like slips. Slips spill their drinks and are less than comfortable. Especially in the rear end of the cabin, you can feel it when the pilot has restless feet and is playing with the rudder. And, however much you'd like to make those obnoxious people in the back thoroughly airsick, they pay for the flight so you have to treat them nicely.

- Swept wings and slips really don't mix too well. The upwind wing will have a larger perpendicular airspeed component than the downwind wing. As this component is the one which accounts for the lift, it creates a roll moment that you can live without.

- You have to level the wings prior to touchdown. If you don't you might have a podstrike if you're flying something with podded engines.

If you crab in, your wings are level but your aircraft and landing gear aren't aligned with the runway. Thus, you use rudder to take out the crab prior to touchdown. As you do, you might have to compensate with aileron to keep the wings level or there might be a pod strike.

Cheers,
Fred
I thought I was doing good trying to avoid those airport hotels... and look at me now.
 
il75
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 1:55 am

I was long amazed by those pictures and certainly said to myself "lucky you you weren't at that plane". But then one day I saw a short film showing just this very same landing or another just identical.

It was for me a great example of the differences between still and motion picture. You see the photographs and think "How is this going to end?" fearing it is impossible to straighten up the airplane. But the film is no dramatic at all. Yes, the nose of the plane was certainly pointing in a wrong direction -- for a second -- but immediately after landing the aircraft was rolling nicely in the middle of the runway. I even wondered if the passengers did notice anything at all.

A shame I do not remember the site where I found the film but I think it was something under the name "spectacular landings".

Regards
Erico
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 9:01 am

Hi Fred,

Thanks a lot for the reply! I've got a clear picture now.

Erico,

I'm sure if that's a passenger jet the passenger will definately feel something. Even a slight kick in a rudder to center your nose on the runway by the pilot you will feel it in the cabin. I realy don't know how wuld this feel.. I guess everyone would be foreced to the right.

Cheers!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 10:39 am

Just think about a long fuselage airplane - merely for taxying - and you swing the tail around to make a 90 degree turn to line up on the runway... If you dont do it slowly and smoothly, you might get a couple of flight attendants falling on their face while they try to run to their stations...
xxx
Like I said here before many times, learning to taxi a 747 is the only difficult thing... you need to have the "mind" of an 18 wheel driver (think how they manage their turns on streets) - same for us, the nose wheel is AFT of the pilot seats - and "where is the main gear"... then the "yaw movement" of the tail on the ground - sideloads, somebody mentioned passengers not liking it, true... The same thing applies to all long fuselage airplanes, MD11s, even the long DC8s.
xxx
Think of it - we got 18 wheels as well  Wink/being sarcastic
xxx
(s) Skipper
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 5:35 pm

Well won't the B773 and the coming A346 make this worse?  Smile
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 6:17 pm

Mr.BA that is correct, the longer the plane, the worse it is...
And for the other facts (directional control) realize that at high speed - all is done by the rudder, a nose wheel is about as effective as a piece of wet paper tissues... In the 747 the rudder starts to be effective as early as about 60-70 kts, the nose wheel is just good for taxi speeds and "initial line up" for takeoff. Nose wheel would be totally unable to counter the yaw moment of an outboard engine at high power, the opposite at idle...
xxx
I once saw a 747 almost making a ground loop because of uneven engine power application, and I could see the pilot attempting to use the nose wheel steering, the plane ended up some 45 to 60 degrees sideways on the runway. These passengers probably were not too happy.
xxx
(s) Skipper
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 19, 2002 10:38 pm

Thank you Skipper. About taxying the B747, do you need to apply differential braking or thrust of both to turn tight corners?

Cheers!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 4:29 am

Mr.BA -
xxx
We taxi at 20 kts (max) and make "normal turns" at 10 kts... tight turns probably around 5 kts, almost standing still... (speed is read from INS)...
xxx
The airplane, so slow in tight turns needs a little bit of "engine power" on the outboard engines, for me "a knob worth of power" to assist the aircraft to continue turning and moving... so yes we use differential power, but as far as the brakes, nobody uses differential braking at all for turns...
xxx
Brakes and wheel can overheat very easy on a 747 taxiing for takeoff, we have brake temperature gages. If you see an aircraft taking off and not retracting the gear for a couple of minutes, maybe it is because they are cooling the brakes as a precaution...
xxx
Happy contrails -
(s) Skipper
 
Klaus
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:47 am

I was wondering (and had asked a few months before, but can´t remember it answered): Does the 747 body gear steering play any part in crabbed landings or does the steering stay locked all the time unless taxiing?

I can imagine quite a few reasons for not using it in landings, but I don´t know for sure.

(I just watched the movie of the KAL 747 Kai Tak landing again; It looks like a 45 degree swing within about three seconds right before touchdown. Even with the perspective probably exaggerating, I can´t imagine that nobody felt anything, especially in the back rows...)
 
Staffan
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 9:55 am

I heard somewhere that the 747's MLG is designed to stand the forces of a 45 degree crab on touchdown, can anyone confirm that?

Staffan
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:26 am

Dear Klaus -
Regarding your question about the body gear steering in the 747, the "switch" is ON, for taxi, we arm the switch to turn off the runway at completion of the landing. It stays ON, until we line-up on the takeoff runway for departure, and placed OFF before we start moving the power for takeoff... one of the last thing on our before takeoff check-list...
xxx
The takeoff warning horn in the 747 includes the standard "Boeing items" which are - flaps (TE-LE) not in takeoff position, trim not in the green band, speed brakes handle not down/locked AND BODY GEAR NOT CENTERED/disarmed... the warning horn would sound...
xxx
For our future 747 pilots here - you will learn that to taxi on icy taxiways, it is better to leave the body gear system OFF (centered gear) to decrease the danger of skidding on ice...
xxx
Staffan, I dont know if it is "45 degrees", but that main landing gear can take a lot of sideloads - no figures to give you, sorry...
xxx
(s) Skipper  Smile
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 12:37 pm

Thanks Skipper for the explanation.

Just came to mind, is it better to taxi with flaps up for as long as possible when there are snow/standing water and areas prone to icing? I can imagine flaps and every part of the wing are very important. Are the flaps very prone to have ice formed on it? Also, in very cold conditions, how do you warm the fuel and hydraulic liquids up (I think the minimum fuel temperature for start is the same as the 744 on the classics?)? Would turning the nose gear help?

Thank you!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 1:41 pm

Dear Mr.BA -
xxx
There is a minimum fuel temperature - Jet A-1 we can go to -37 Celsius, but we must heat fuel (in the JT9D engines) for 1 minute before takeoff if the temperature is between +5 C to -15 C... and 2 minutes of less that - 15 C...
We can read temperature of fuel in main tank #1, as well as fuel going to each engine... A trick: fuel temperature of fuel in center wing tank is always warmer... I always keep some there for the end of cruise, so if fuel is very cold, that fuel can be used if necessary - flight engineers taught me that...
xxx
The CF6 engine does not require fuel heat (no fuel heat switches on 747s with CF6)... The RR engines have fuel heat switches, never flew these...
xxx
Hydraulics, well, no minimum temperature... and we have 4 separate systems in the 747, so warming up one (i.e. moving nose wheel steering) would have no effect on the 3 other hydraulic systems... hydraulics gets warm fairly fast, the worry is to "cool hydraulics" rather than heating the Skydrol...
Hydraulic fluid is cooled by heat exchangers (radiators) submerged in the fuel tanks... cools off hydraulics, warms up the fuel in the tanks...
xxx
With ice and snow, we taxi flaps up, to prevent ice and snow from entering into the spacing into which they are to retract after takeoff... then when we position on the runway, we extend the flaps as required, then we have to complete the check list we could not do (since the flaps were not extended). That is the reason why, with ice and snow, your airplane might delay the takeoff about 1 minute on the runway, it is for completion of check lists...
xxx
Finally, after flaps retraction on takeoff, we might "cycle the gear down for a few seconds" to clean off any ice or snow that might be on it, as it could freeze some gear components or micro switches inside the wheel well... so if that happens while you departed, you know why now...
xxx
With ice and snow, finally, after landing, we do not retract flaps, as there may be ice and snow inside the retraction space... maintenance would check first to perform retraction clear of any ice...
xxx
That's it...  Wink/being sarcastic
(s) Skipper
 
Klaus
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B747skipper

Sun Oct 20, 2002 5:19 pm


Thanks!  Smile
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:18 pm

Hello Skipper,

Thanks again for such an informative post. Hope it's not taking up to much of your time!  Big grin

By the way, I've read on landing rolls reversers are stowed at about 60 knots but I do see pilots maintaining reverse thrust even when they vacate. Why is this so? Is there a speed restriction like say by 50 knots reversers have got to be stowed? The JAL B744 I saw still had it's reversers on until it completed turning onto the parallel... a bit out of question?

Thanks!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
L-188
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 8:49 pm

I am going to chime in a bit on flaps and taxing on ice.

On the 727's that I used to turn on occasion when the plane would land on a slushy runway (very very common in the Aleutian Islands) the flaps would be left down until the airplane was ready for departure. The idea was that during the landing role you didn't want any of the slush that was kicked up by the wheels to freeze in a set of retracted flaps so they where left down for taxi, They where also kept down during the ground service to prevent any slush from getting sucked up into the mechanisms and freezing them up. In the course of doing the de-icing prior to departure, I would not only hit the typical upper service of the wing but also with the underside of the wing and the flaps. Usually you don't have to do the underside of the wings but the idea was to hit any slush that was kicked up by the wings from in-between the slots in the flaps and the flap mechanism. Only after the deicing was done was the flaps raised back up, again to keep them from picking up slush until the taxi to the runway.



As far as 747's on ice I have a story, and it deals with a patch that is bare of trees here in Anchorage right next to the runways.

It was about 73 or 74 and Japan Airlines had a 747 freighter that was loaded with cows slide off the runway due to winds. It was a total loss and any cows that didn't make it had to be put down. So now JAL has this 747 that is off the side of the runway in the middle of a very cold Alaskan Winter, so cold that they are unable to perform any removal or salvage of the aircraft. So they contracted out to all the local snow plow operators to haul the snow that they cleared off all of the parking lots around town to the airport. They then got a couple of sunflower and loaders to bury the 747 in a giant snow pile. It sat there until spring when the wreckage was carted off.

I have seen pictures of the 747 before they buried it, sorry but I can't remember what year it went off the side. I don't think it was the same year that Capitol crashed that DC-8 out here and killed 180 odd GI's on their way to Korean. That crash was caused by the brakes on the aircraft freezing up during their taxi down K here due to their brakes freezing up, (The same K that a China Air A340 used for a runway last January). The DC-8 never got up to flying speed and went straight off the end of 6R, didn't make it to Jewel Lake road there.

I also know of a Lifeguard flight that took off from a slush covered runway in the bush a couple of years ago, and at altitude the water and slush froze up the brakes. On landing they blew through all four mains at once. Saw the tire carcasses afterwards, It is pretty impressive to see four tires that have been ground through all to the same depth.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sun Oct 20, 2002 10:28 pm

Hello L-188,

Interesting stories there, thanks so much for sharing it. Talking about brakes freezing up, in modern aircraft are there systems to make sure that it does not froze up?

Cheers!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
L-188
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 12:57 am

They then got a couple of sunflower and loaders to bury the 747

This is why you shouldn't trust the spellchecker Big grin

I don't think there are any systems to prevent it. That aircraft I described that blew all four mains was a Learjet, Those are pretty modern.
OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 8:13 am

Dear L-188 -
xxx
Please verify the story of the "JAL cargo with cows, buried, etc." - I am so impressed by the the fact that you saw the pictures before they buried it under snow... Incredible how stories change with time...
xxx
The facts are somewhat different, so I shall give you all the reference material and information to enable you to verify the details...
xxx
The flight in question was a 747-246B on a scheduled run from LHR to TYO, with fuel stop in ANC on 16 DEC 1975, aircraft was s/n 20924, registry JA8122... and was blown off by severe crosswinds while taxiing out for takeoff, from a parallel taxiway, then skidded down the embankment... there were no casualties... severe damage was repaired, it took some 6 months or so to repair the aircraft, for which an enormous tent was built, to protect the engineering team from the harsh weather conditions.
Suggest you verify, with the ANC airport manager records...
xxx
The aircraft eventually was repaired... A buddy of mine, flew that very aircraft as TF-ABI with Air Atlanta Iceland, in about 1996... and mentioned that he flew "the aircraft that skidded off in ANC"... It was considered one of the most extensive and... expensive repair project in these days...
xxx
Let us all be careful about "broadcasting legends" in this forum... we all try to provide a maximum of accurate information to those who are interested. As far as the cows are concerned, I do not believe that JAL permits passengers to take that kind of pets in the cabin... there is ample supply of fresh milk on their flights...
xxx
(s) Skipper  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 9:56 am

For reversers - Hello Mr.BA -
xxx
Note that in case of emergency, full power reverse may be used until the aircraft is stopped...
Engines may not like it... likely they will surge when speed comes down.
xxx
In practice we use "normal amount" of reverse down to about 60 KIAS, at which time we progressively reduce down to idle reverse then get out of reverse as we turn off the runway...
xxx
Personal technique here - which I recommend - is to reduce reverse on the inboard engines "a little earlier" than the outboard engines, this is to prevent the "disturbed air" (from inboards which are forward location) into the outboard engines (which are further aft)... I learned that in 707s as well...
xxx
Stowing reversers at somewhat high power (and still fairly high speed) THEN suddenly slamming them back into forward thrust might result in a burst of forward thrust, not exactly a good situation, if you are not insured to be able to stop the aircraft. For me reversers still deployed at idle, until slow taxi speed is achieved, is also to reduce residual idle foward thrust...
Hope that clears it all for you, Mr.BA...
xxx
(s) Skipper  Smile
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 11:05 am

We normally land with reserve idle in Cathay. We crack the reversers to have them at the ready incase we need them, however, we don't usually use any more than idle. We let the carbon brakes do most of the work. If we do use more than reverse idle, there is a "70knots" call. At this point we put the reversers back to idle. As they are much more effective at high speeds than low, there is not much point using more than idle at low speeds unless you are really desperate. Our manuals state to keep reverse idle until a 'safe taxying speed' which normally means around 30 knots or less.
 
L-188
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 1:03 pm

You realize that you just called my uncle a liar there Skipper.

OBAMA-WORST PRESIDENT EVER....Even SKOORB would be better.
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 2:06 pm

L-188, please verify, JA8122, 747-246B passenger a/c, ANC on 16 DEC 1975...
Then tell me that your uncle did not remember, after all, that is long ago... or that you dont remember what your uncle told you...
But if not, then - call me a LIAR - if applicable...
xxx
What I think here, the story with the cows, was a Flying Tigers DC8-63... for me a vague "something" in the back of my head...
xxx
I have the specific details of the accident on the side of my desk, specifics of registration, aircraft c/n, date... which I copied as reference for your verification... please do so... Obviously, I could not state a date, an aircraft registration number and its c/n unless I had it under my eyes...
xxx
Happy contrails...
(s) Skipper  Wink/being sarcastic
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 3:35 pm

L-188 -  Smile
xxx
Just did research that accident with NTSB through AirDisaster.com...
Here is the reference for you to check...
www.airdisaster.com/cgi-bin/countdown2/countdown.cgi?AAR76.12
xxx
It is in the full text reports, quite long...
And I never called your uncle a liar, nor you of being one either...
xxx
(s) Skipper

 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:24 pm

Hello Skipper and Cx flyboy,

Thanks a lot for the explanations and information. For CX, does it mean idle reversers are always used as much as possible then the appropriate amount of autobrakes when conditions prevail? How about for wet weather? Does full reversers come to mind first?

Classic B747s that land in Changi usually deploy full reverse or close to full, the sound is realy distinctive. Does those steel brakes really heat up very easily?

Wonder can any pilots share experiences landing on wet runways in rainy and windy conditions? Does the B747 aquaplane easily? The Qantas incident comes to mind  Smile

Take care,

alvin
Boeing747 万岁!
 
Guest

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 4:42 pm

Hola Alvin -
xxx
With the old Classics, when landing on wet runways, autobrakes go to MED...
Only MIN, MED and MAX on autobrakes rate selector for the Classics...
xxx
(s) Skipper
 
CX Flyboy
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:51 pm

Alvin,

We use more than idle reverse when we feel it should be a good idea. On a long dry runway, we use idle only. If it was wet, I would use full reverse. On contaminated runways, no question we would use full reverse. If I were to land a bit long, I would use full reverse, even if I briefed that I planned to use idle only.
On the 777 we have Autobrakes 1,2,3,4 and MAX. On the 772, we normally use 2 or 3. It depends on how far down the runway we wish to vacate, and how heavy we are. On the 773 we normally use Autobrakes 3, although some places, like BKK Rwy21L we use autobrakes 1, because we have to roll down to the end to vacate. We never use no autobrakes. We always have something set.
 
Mr.BA
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Mon Oct 21, 2002 5:55 pm

Hello Cx flyboy and Skipper,

Thanks a lot again. Always interesting to learn more, hope you guys didn't mind, sorry to have dragged this so long and having it end with something not really related to the topic itself  Smile

Take care everyone!
Boeing747 万岁!
 
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RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 26, 2002 10:42 am

Alvin -
Did you get that book I recommended to you about the 747...?
(s) Skipper
 
Mr.BA
Topic Author
Posts: 3310
Joined: Sun Sep 24, 2000 12:26 pm

RE: How Did He Managed To Straighten Out?

Sat Oct 26, 2002 12:58 pm

Hi Skipper,

Can't find it anywhere till now. Even Amazon don't give a clue.

Cheers!
Boeing747 万岁!

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