mjsmigel
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:57 am

Thrust Reverser Pushback

Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:51 am

Several years ago I was surprised when we pushed back from the gate with thrust reverser power. This was an AA F100 at DFW.

How do the policies for doing this vary? I certainly can't imagine a 747 doing this, and this is the only time I've ever experienced it. I guess the ground crew supervisor has to give the "ok" before kicking up all that wind?

MJ
 
gotAirbus
Posts: 791
Joined: Fri May 18, 2001 10:02 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Mon Nov 18, 2002 10:58 am

I've gotten answers to my question way back.

Here you go:

http://www.airliners.net/discussions/general_aviation/read.main/883976/

(gotAirbus?)-(Got Commonality?)-(Have A Nice Flight!)

(gotAIRBUS?) - (Got Commonality?) - (Have A Nice Flight!)
 
mjsmigel
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:57 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Mon Nov 18, 2002 11:49 am

Excellent... works for me. Thanks..

MJ
 
bio15
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:10 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Tue Nov 19, 2002 5:45 am

There may be at least 5 threads on this subject. I don't recall seeing on any of these what are the polices. I assumed that it must come down to airport permission to perform powerbacks. If the aircraft is safe to powerback (mostly, only tail engine mounted aircraft) and the airport allows it because it can be done safely within its facilities, and the airline uses it as a procedure, then the powerbacks are done.

I know 727's, DC9s (MD80s/90s), 717s and F100 may do powerbacks.

-Alfredo
 
Guest

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Tue Nov 19, 2002 11:32 am

Dear Friends -
xxx
Powerback approval is subject - for US air carriers (121) to the Operations Specifications which are approved in the GOM - General Operations Manual.
xxx
A certain type aircraft may be approved for powerback by abc airline, but not for xyz airlines... Not "everything" is in 121 Regulations only... it may be GOM and Ops Specs as well.
xxx
I learned something with my days in with PA, the only "policy and rules" publication needed by an airline pilot, mechanic/engineer, or... employee, is the GOM (and the GMM - General Maintenance Manual)... forget about your own "separate" FAR 121, or 91, of 43, or whatever... to see "if your can do". If it is approved for your airline - it is so stated in YOUR GOM (GMM)... If it is not stated in your GOM (GMM), you are not legal to do it, no matter what the FARs say...
xxx
The most restrictive applies... period.
(s) Skipper
 
User avatar
wilcharl
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Tue Nov 19, 2002 1:20 pm

BR-715,


try to make sure your information is correct before you post it... The 727 and the 757 both have cascade reversers and both were powered back regularly out of your favorite C concourse in Atlanta when EA ran the show.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:20 pm

B747, can you talk in a dumbed down approach to me? I don;t know the lingo.

Wilcharl, the 757 did pushbacks? I was under the assumption that only the Rear mounted engine types did.

Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
Guest

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:44 pm

Hi Mirrodie -
xxx
Supposed that DC9s are approved for powerback - say with NWA...
Does not mean that DL can do it with their DC9s...
It must be in their GOM - Operations specifications for powerback...
And further - I did not mention (but obvious) pilots must be trained to do...
 Smile
(s) Skipper
 
Guest

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:44 am

A lot of things one airline does - may not be necessarily legal for another airline to do, i.e. powerback - many things are subject to airline's individual approval - this, i.e. approved in their operations specifications...
xxx
Example... AA has 767 maintenance and parts for 767... A DL 767 is grounded in DFW, need repairs. Parts from AA can only be used if it is approved in the Operations Specifications of DL... (which by the way is very likely to be OK)
Also who can repair aircraft... AA mechanic or DL mechanics only...
xxx
Complicated these airlines... isn't it...?
(s) Slipper
 
744rules
Posts: 391
Joined: Sat Mar 30, 2002 3:34 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:56 am

as skipper said : the most restrictive applies. Some airport authorities do not allow powerback
 
USAFHummer
Posts: 10261
Joined: Thu May 18, 2000 12:22 pm

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:06 am

At DFW powerbacks are incredibly frequent with the vast amount of AA MD-80's there...I experienced a powerback there this summer on an AA MD-80, and saw numerous other MD-80's doing the same...

Greg
Chief A.net college football stadium self-pic guru
 
mjsmigel
Posts: 57
Joined: Thu Oct 31, 2002 4:57 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:50 am

Why the powerbacks to begin with? Is this mostly due to the convenience factor, or does it take a lot of time to get a tug involved?

I also wonder about the possibility of losing directional control due to asymmetric thrust... especially on the B-757's which have engines further apart. Is it fairly easy to steer with reverse thrust?

MJ
 
bio15
Posts: 1048
Joined: Fri Mar 23, 2001 8:10 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:13 am

Wing mounted engine aircraft don't powerback. They may powerback, and I'm sure someone has done this, but there is a very high risk of damaging the engine due to FOD (Foreign Object Damage). Since wing mounted engines are blowing quite a gust so near to the ground, there's the risk of debris being ingested by the engine.
On rear mounted engine aircraft the steering is done with the nosegear. Brakes are not used when powerbacking to avoid a tailstrike (funny  Smile) since the plane will pivot on the main gears. stopping is just done by applying a little forward thrust, or just idle.


-Alfredo
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Wed Nov 20, 2002 11:55 am

When I was in GPT, I watched a NW DC9 powerback, and when I was in ATL, and we powerbacked on a 717. The pilot treated it like a manual transmission sports car. Backed up, and then while we were still backing applied forward thrust, and we jerked forward. I love how those pilots treat them like fighters and sports cars. I noticed the same on an AA MD83 where the pilot treated it like a sports car. I love those kind of powerbacks.
Puhdiddle
 
User avatar
wilcharl
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Thu Nov 21, 2002 6:02 am

EA originated the powerback because the unions at EA required that MX do the pushbacks (i guess wn has this same rule) the powerback was a way to get the aircraft out of the gate less a tug and without a mx person driving it. apparently charlie bryant stood behind the first ea 757 being powered back in atl and was shot across the ramp (or so the story goes) AA powerd back 757s at one point, The old frontier would regularly power back the -200 737.
 
Guest

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:31 am

Dear BR715-A1-30 -
xxx
I think you misinterpret the handling of power back by pilots, there is a problem that you did not realize.
xxx
To "start" the power back - you need sometimes to increase power of the engine to get extra bleed air, some reversers being operated by bleed air, engines at idle do not deploy reversers as well... so initially, you may hear increase of power in forward thrust, before like you say "jerking into reverse"...
xxx
Then going in reverse, to stop you CANNOT USE THE WHEEL BRAKES, because of danger of the aircraft falling on its tail so, again, the pilot has to "jerk" the thrust in forward thrust... to stop the airplane from rolling rearward...
xxx
As you see, it appears that they handle planes like fighter planes or sports car to you - but the facts and reasons, are somewhat different...
xxx
(s) Skipper  Smile
 
User avatar
wilcharl
Posts: 1159
Joined: Sun Jun 25, 2000 11:19 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:25 pm

i remember back in my FL days jumpseating in a brand new 717 during a powerback with a former Pan-Am skipper. The captain was well seasoned, and he gave me a trip i would never forget. He had a clear plastic bag over his hat, saying it was from the white hat pan am days. we flew into MCO with a stiff cross wind and i always noticed the 717 pilots never got the landings as smooth as the dc-9 and i commented to him on this. he greased the 717 in even with the very stiff cross wind like it was nothing. anyways back to the story, what really impressed me was his jockying of the throttles during the powerback as the good skipper has stated, you have to increase the thrust initailly, take it into reverse, power was brought up on one engine first then the other during the turn, then we arrested our backwards motion with the throttles and taxied off with a wonderful salute from the marshaller.
 
Guest

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:42 pm

Dear Wilcharl -
xxx
My gosh, thank you for saying something nice about the Panamigos... At times it is necessary to "jerk" the power, turbulence on approach, often the case to stay on speed...
xxx
And I once had to "power back" an airplane not approved for such a maneuver, I had never been trained to do one, but I knew the technique used to do one... was overseas, we had been parked nose against a wall, and the only airport tug was unserviceable... It was either do it or put 250 passengers in a hotel until the tug got fixed... - bad boy - chief pilot said that I violated the FARs and company policies, but said if I would be "suspended" it would have been with pay, on my days off... and with a pat on the back from the director of operations... hotel bills can be stiff... 200 rooms = $20,000...
xxx
That was the PanAm days - we tried to save the company...
Good guys wear white hats, as you may know...
 Wink/being sarcastic
(s) Skipper
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:46 pm

Interestingly for our airline, powerbacks are approved for the 757, but not for the 767. In reality they are not recommended, or used, for either type.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
shaun3000
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:10 pm

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Thu Nov 21, 2002 3:32 pm

Regarding the DFW powerbacks:

For many years, whenever I flew American out of DFW and was on an MD-80, we power backed. In fact, almost always we power backed.

More recently, however, they have all been pushed back. The only flights out of DFW in the past few years for me have been from STL and back, coming home from school. As such I am usually flying [ex]TWA aircraft.

Is there some reason none of these power back? Does it have to do with the gate they are at? Or is it just a coincidence that none of my recent flights on MD-80s have powered back?

Just wondering.

Thanks!  Smile
 
exnonrev
Posts: 598
Joined: Tue Oct 19, 1999 4:26 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:54 am

Shaun hit it right on the head. Some airports don't allow powerbacks, others have gate restrictions. Here is one airline's list of approved airports and gate restrictions:

AIRPORTS (IDENT) RESTRICTIONS & LIMITATIONS
Agana, NAS PNGM Notify GAA Ops for Approval Prior
Atlanta, GA KATL None
Austin, TX KAUS None
Baltimore, MD KBWI Gates C4, C6, C8 Only
Baton Rouge, LA KBTR None
Billings, MT KBIL None
Bozeman, MT KBZN None
Brownsville, TX KBRO None
Cincinnati, OH KCVG Gates C5 and C7 Only
Charlotte, NC KCLT None
Cleveland, OH KCLE None
Colorado Springs, CO KCOS None
Columbus, OH KCMH Gates 17 / 17A
Corpus Christi, TX KCRP Gate 15
Dallas/Ft. Worth, TX KDFW None
Daytona Beach, FL KDAB None
Denver, CO KDIA All Gates - Concourse A
Detroit, MI KDTW None
El Paso, TX KELP None
Ft. Lauderdale, FL KFLL None
Ft. Myers, FL KRSW None
Grand Junction, CO KGJT None
Greensboro, NC KGSO None
Harlingen, TX KHRL None
Houston, TX KHOU None
Houston, TX KIAH Powerback Operations Authorized IAB 1-6A Gates.
Powerback Not Authorized from IAB Gates 7-12.
Do Not Powerback from Gate C34 with Aircraft on
C33 or C35. Do Not Powerback from Gate C18 with
Aircraft on Gate C19. Powerback Not Authorized
from Gate C42.
Indianapolis, IN KIND None
Jacksonville, FL KJAX None
Kansas City, MO KMCI None
Lafayette, LA KLFT None
Las Vegas, NV KLAS None
Louisville, KY KSDF Gates 27, 29
Lubbock, TX KLBB None
Melbourne, FL KMLB Gates 2, 4
McAllen, TX KMFE None
Midland-Odessa, TX KMAF None
Miami, FL KMIA None
Milwaukee, WI KMKE None
Mobile, AL KMOB Gate 2
Monterrey, MX MMMY None
New Orleans, LA KMSY None
Norfolk, VA KORF None
Oakland, CA KOAK None
Oklahoma City, OK KOKC None
Omaha, NE KOMA None
Orlando, FL KMCO None
Pensacola, FL KPNS Gates 2, 3, 4, and 6 Only
Phoenix, AZ KPHX None
Portland, ME KPWM None
Puerto Vallarta, MX MMPR None
Reno, NV KRNO None
Rochester, NY KROC None
Salt Lake City, UT KSLC Not Authorized from Gate A-2 when Aircraft on A-4
San Antonio, TX KSAT None
Sarasota, FL KSRQ None
Seattle/Tacoma, WA KSEA None
Shreveport, LA KSHV Gates 3, 4
Spokane, WA KGEG None
Tampa, FL KTPA Gates 65 & C65A
Tucson, AZ KTUS None
Tulsa, OK KTUL None
Washington, DC KIAD None
West Palm Beach, FL KPBI B4 and B6
Wichita, KS KICT None
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
Joined: Thu May 30, 2002 9:30 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Fri Nov 22, 2002 10:26 am

Shaun3000, When I flew on AA on an MD-83 (N438AA), We did a powerback out of Charlie-14. That was in June, 2000. I don't know if they have changed the rules lately, but I do remember my first powerback at DFW.
Puhdiddle
 
shaun3000
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:10 pm

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Fri Nov 22, 2002 2:54 pm

BR715-A1-30:

I haven't been on a real AA MD-80 in some time. Since fall, 2001, I've been flying TWA/AA home from STL. They never powerbacked at STL and none of the ex-TWA planes I've been on have done so. (Many times AA flights departing adjacent gates will power back)

I am wondering if it's just a coincidence or if there's some policy TWA used to have or something different about the TWA planes or what. Not that it matters, this thread just got me wondering.

Oh, and the phonetic alphabet is really only helpful when speaking. Typed out, C is C.  Big grin
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Thrust Reverser Pushback

Sat Nov 23, 2002 1:09 am

>Is there some reason none of these power back? Does it have to do with the gate they are at?

AA at DFW.... gate dependent. Sometimes a gate normally approved for powerback will be prohibited from powerback due to temporary obstructions nearby (airplanes, equipment, etc.).

>I am wondering if it's just a coincidence or if there's some policy TWA used
>to have or something different about the TWA planes or what

x-TWA aircraft operate under TWALLC (old TWA) operating certificate. The procedures remain whatever the old TWA was approved for and I suspect the use of powerback was pretty limited. When the final conversion to all AA operations is made, the TWALLC will cease to operate and all ops will be conducted under AA's operating certificate (AA procedures).
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