bacardi182
Posts: 1029
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2000 2:47 am

Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:22 pm

With the back log un-employed pilots it is possible to get your instrument training in a multi with free flight instruction (to gain hours). I am a private pilot (single engine) with 80 hours. I am about to start working on my instrument but would really like to fly multi's. Since I can rent a multi for a little over a $100 an hour with free instruction it is about the same as the $83 an hour Cessna with $25 instruction. I am planning on making a career of being a pilot and I am working on an associate degree in aviation professional pilot. To get the degree I must get my private (got it), instrument, commercial, and CFI. Do you think getting my instrument ticket in a multi is a good idea?
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:28 pm

You first need to go get you private multi then move on to your instrument. It's going to be hard but I don't see any where in the regs that says you can't all you have to do is meet the mins set forth in Part 61.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Guest

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Tue Nov 19, 2002 2:38 pm

Dear Bacardi182 -
xxx
Suppose you get your MEL rating now, as PVT pilot...
Then get your instrument rating in that MEL aircraft...
Your license will read that you are -
Private pilot, airplane multi engine land... Instrument...
Airplane single engine land VFR privileges only...
xxx
There are "things" (ratings) you do not "drag" to your next higher qualification.
However your idea is quite good - My Gosh - prices are high nowadays...
All the best to you -
 Smile
(s) Skipper

 
bacardi182
Posts: 1029
Joined: Tue Jan 04, 2000 2:47 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:16 am

Hmmm... I thought that if I got my instrument rating in a multi, it would roll down to single engine aircraft as well.?.?

I know the instrument rating is one of the harder ratings out there to get, so am I crazy for wanting to get it in a multi?
 
PPGMD
Posts: 2398
Joined: Sun Sep 30, 2001 5:39 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:23 am

There are too many things to worry about in a multi that will make getting the rating a little harder. I know most DEs on multi rides like to stress systems, since there are more of them.

But since you have the chance to do some multi time cheap I suggest you jump on it. Just get you instrument in a single, then do the instrument in the multi instrument when you do you multi commerical add-on. Its would probally be the easiest way for you.
At worst, you screw up and die.
 
Guest

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 6:00 am

Dear Bacardi182 -
As an example if you are CPL single/multi/instrument...
You take a ATPL on a twin, your license will say -
"Airline transport pilot - multiengine land
"Commercial pilot privileges single engine land... not ATPL on single engine...
xxx
I do not remember all these - never was a "designee" but
I did a lot of type rating training FAR 61/91 in USA on Learjets
That is what I remember FAA inspectors wrote on new certificate...
Some of our friends will be able to explain to you better...
xxx
Multiengine instrument - if price the same, go for it...
But realise you have to master multi AND instrument flying...
Both are extremely important trainings...
Private compared to Commercial not so much -
To my opinion there some better PPL than some CPL pilots...
What makes you a "pro" is have a good Instrument training...
Multiengine you can become good at it - but that is experience mostly...
xxx
All the best to you...
(s) Skipper
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:00 pm

I got my instrument and commercial in multi only.

IOW, my progression was:

Private Single
Private Multi
Instrument
Commercial

Getting a multi rating without the instrument rating is easy -- I think I did it in 8.3 hours, which included 1.1 for the checkride itself.

The Instrument and Commercial were done together in a single, long ride that was, for technical purposes, split into 'two' rides. It's not much more workload to get the commercial in the multi; trivial, really. Because I built twin time, I got hired without ever actually getting the Commercial rating for single engine aircraft.

So, what I have is a certificate that reads:

XII Ratings

Commercial Pilot
Airplane Multiengine land instrument airplane
Private Priviledges
Airplane Single Engine Land

The very first few hours of the instrument training in the twin will be slightly more demanding, simply because you're going to be flying a bit faster than you would be in a Warrior or Skyhawk. But don't despair!

One thing I used to do to practice my scan was, at home, to fly MS's Flight Simulator in a King Air at 200+ knots; just the short loop of VNY Rwy 16R Canoga7 (now 8) departure right onto the BUR ILS 8 approach. It certainly teaches you to keep your scan going!

Steve
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 3:05 pm

Sounds like a good plan to me. You'll have to do your private multi- addon in the same checkride you get your instrument, which will still make it more demanding, but it's definitely do-able. I wish i had that kind of deal.


What kind of bird is it in?


Remember you will be having to deal with Vmc, an engine out approach and a slew of engine failures, as well as your standard partial panel non precision approach, holding, blah blah blah that is the usual on your checkride- so read further for probably a smoother way to do things for a less experienced pilot with a great opportunity like this.


With this deal- here's my reccomendation. Go ahead and get familiar with the twin- get your multi add-on, only takes about 10 hours. Then, go through with the instrument rating course. It will be easy to build cross country time at those speeds- and your instrument scan will be alot better as you cant be as ham-handed in a twin. The best thing is that it wont be costing you any extra for multi-engine. I'd love to be your instructor too! I'm actually making one of my students a similiar deal. If he finds me a twin to teach him in and pays for me to get checked out in it. I'll teach him his ME rating and ME commercial rating. Us CFI's are always looking for that elusive multi-engine time.

The trick is- after you go for your checkride in the twin, you have to go for another to get your single-engine add-on for your instrument rating. No big deal though.... i had a multi-engine commercial for while and couldnt fly commercially single engine planes.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:24 pm

Just to be clear, you only need the add-on to get commercial priviledges in single engine aircraft. If you get you instrument rating in the twin, it will be good for both.

Steve
 
Guest

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Wed Nov 20, 2002 4:42 pm

Dear Sllevin -
There are ratings/qualifications that do not automatically transfer... dont know which ones.
I see many ATP for USA Certificates with Commercial Privileges single engine, the ATP did not include "all privileges" - or the same for seaplane ratings... do not know where the cutoff line is for ratings... gliders, helicopters...
Anyone here knows? - I have good knowledge of FARs... to a limit...
(s) Skipper
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 12:02 am

I had to get a multi-add on for my instrument rating.... I assumed it goes the other way around. I'll look it up today and post it if no one else has beat me to it.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
nikes
Posts: 38
Joined: Mon Aug 27, 2001 9:26 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 1:33 am

That's how my school does it. We get our PPLSE, PPME, then a single engine instrument course with no rating... It's just the holds etc, then a multiengine instrument course which includes approaches ext. In which after the check ride you receive your SE/ME Instrument.

-Nikes
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Thu Nov 21, 2002 11:55 am

Skipper -- like you, I can't quote the FARs off the top of my head.  Smile I was better when I was actively flying 135.

In short, Commercial and ATP are certificates. Therefore, they apply specifically to category and class -- an ATP for multi-engine land does NOT automatically give you ATP priviledges in a single engine aircraft. A lot of ex-military types have an ATP multi-engine land but only Private for single engine land.

The Instrument Rating is exactly that -- a rating. Instrument ratings are applicable to category ONLY. Therefore, there's just one instrument rating for airplane. You can use it for land or sea planes, if you have those priviliedges. And you don't have to retake a checkride if you get the seaplane rating later  Smile

However if you earn your instrument rating in a single engine airplane (land or sea), your rating is restricted to Single Engine only, until such time as you demonstrate proficiency in the multi (they don't want you getting your rating in a Cherokee 140 and then jumping into a Cessna 411 and shooting an engine-out missed approach!). If you earn the rating in the twin, you have killed two birds at the same time, because you've gotten the rating and demonstrated the multi proficiency. Of course, you'll almost certain have the joy of shooting a partial panel, single engine approach, but really, it's not that bad (and you have to do it someday!).

It's the same if you get your multi rating in a Centerline Thrust twin (in the GA world, we're talking about the Cessna 336/337, but for military folks, this used to include, for example, the Navy's older T-2 Buckeye trainers). While you will hold the multi rating, it will be restricted to centerline thrust aircraft only until you demonstrate proficiency in a non-centerline twin.

Okay, now that I've totally muddied the waters...I think I'll go now  Smile

Steve
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Fri Nov 22, 2002 5:03 am

Get a lot done on your instrument rating in a single but then do the rest in a twin; take your flight test in the single. There are things to focus on in instrument training that have nothing to do with how many fans the airplane has. You are to be commended for recognizing the need for instrument training in a multi. I got my multi first and then my instrument but I think it is better to do it instrument first. For anything beyond Sunday afternoon sightseeing flights, I think that the instrument ticket is mandatory. In general, I don't think that you are safe until you are instrument rated and that's not the case with the multi rating. In fact, a lot of people think you are more dangerous to yourself and others if you fly light twins.
 
Guest

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Fri Nov 22, 2002 7:10 am

Getting a "rating" the non-standard way is sometimes strange as to the surprises you get... for licensing...
xxx
During PanAm layoff, was working as a Learjet CFI.. One day a "rich kid" comes by, inquiring about a Learjet type rating - He owned a Bonanza Turbo, held a PPL, Instrument Rating SEL... someone said to him, why not take the written exam for CPL, and get it same time... and a Learjet type rating would also give him a "multi engine rating"...
xxx
To make long story short, he completed the training, passed the written, oral and check flight, and got his CPL Multiengine with a Learjet type rating from the local FAA inspector...
xxx
A week or two later, he received a "nastygram" from FAA (and the FAA inspector as well got in troubles with his superiors) for having given a CPL check ride in an airplane that is not a "complex airplane"... complex airplane meant retractable gear (Lear has that) and constant speed propeller (which the Lear does not have)... To end the story, rating was suspended until he took a short test in a light propeller twin to complete his CPL/Multiengine... Even the FAA inspector admitted he did not think about that...
xxx
That is the reason why I asked if some ratings transfer single to multi, or vice-versa...
xxx
(s) Skipper
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Fri Nov 22, 2002 12:05 pm

Skipper:

Wow, that's an odd one! I never gave it thought since I got my multi rating when I had like 170 hours.

Oh, one other thing to remember for your FAA commercial -- You'll need that 250nm PIC (no instruction) cross country flight. Being an airplane owner it didn't represent a problem for me (I had actually done VNY-FMN-SLN-IXD and back), but I know more than one person who got tagged by that when they went to do their commercial checkride.

Steve
 
Guest

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Fri Nov 22, 2002 1:21 pm

Oh Steve -
You think that guy was a weird one in the Learjet CPL/Multiengine situation, I have seen another one, equally strange. A Learjet pilot, with Commercial VFR only rating... he could fly at... 17,500 feet... maximum. He owned a Learjet 23, did not mind burning extra fuel... a millionaire...
xxx
I asked him one day "why dont you get instrument rated...?" as he often called me to go with him, and file IFR and high level... His answer was quite logical... "why should I bother for the effort, I need a copilot anyway to fly my Learjet, (minimum crew) so I take one who files the flight plan for me as "PIC" and he gives me dual instrument instruction at the same time..."
xxx
And the champion maybe, was Bill Lear himself (the designer of the Learjet) - who had a butler, also with duties as chauffeur... Bill Lear was tired of constantly hiring copilots to go with him in his own airplane, he flew himself.
So he put his butler through flight school for private pilot, multiengine, instrument, to be his copilot, legally... butler drove his car, and flew his airplane... the butler was absolutely not interested in airplanes, but to him, to drive Bill Lear's car or fly his airplane was probably the same.
xxx
 Smile
(s) Skipper
 
sllevin
Posts: 3312
Joined: Wed Jan 30, 2002 1:57 pm

RE: Instrument Rating In A Multi?

Sat Nov 23, 2002 8:36 am

Skipper--

Okay, the weird stories keep on coming.  Smile Again, I've never given much (okay, none at all) thought to this, but is it legal to operate IFR if the SIC isn't instrument rated? I'm thinking that it's a gray area -- specifically, it's not against any regs, but if something happened, you'd get cited under "careless and reckless" (FAR 91.13)

On the lear front, though, my experience in a Lear 24 was a limited one at 17500' with Clay Lacy, but it was lot of fun. If I could afford it I'd fly my Lear down there (of course, one must have the Lear first to worry about the fuel flow!)

Ah well, it's back to packing...Miami here I come!

Steve

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