Captain Moya
Topic Author
Posts: 64
Joined: Thu Jan 04, 2001 12:55 pm

Airline Training Flights

Thu Feb 06, 2003 1:34 pm

Hi Folks,

I live at the Williams Campus located at Williams-Gateway Airport. The other night I couldn't help it but notice the familiar sound of an Airbus taking off. I saw an America West Airbus doing touch and goes several times. I was told by a friend that America West does night training flights at IWA. My question is, with the advent of full-motion flight simulators, how frequently do airlines conduct training flights on actual aircraft? I'm assuming that it'd be more economical to use flight simulators, especially with the softball economy of today - right? I'd appreciate it if you can share your inputs on this. Thank you.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Thu Feb 06, 2003 6:29 pm

Flight simulators go a long way in training pilots, but so called "base training" (circuits with a real, empty aircraft) are still a mandatory requirement for the issue of a Type Rating certificate.

This is not recurrent training (which is done in the sim), these pilots have never flown the aircraft before. It is vital that they gain confidence and competence flying the real aircraft, the sensation is always slightly different.

It is worth mentioning that these flights are conducted with a Training Captain in the left seat, of course.

We do exactly the same in the UK (I did base training on the B757 at Luton and Prestwick). You see a lot of airlines at East Midlands airport (EGNX) in the UK doing base training (e.g. Virgin Atlantic A340s, etc...) as they offer quite competitive approach / landing charges. Good fun watching a giant A340s and A330s going round the circuit...
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 10:12 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Thu Feb 06, 2003 10:07 pm

Rick767

I think you will find, in the UK at least, there is no absolute requirement for a pilot who has not flown a particular type before, to go base flying.

On the last type I instructed on, for instance, the vast majority of new pilots did not go to base, whereas on my current type, everyone does.

It depends on the individual's previous experience, the aircraft involved, and also the quality level of simulator available to the company.

I agree entirely with what you say about gaining confidence and competence at base, but "Economics Rule", as Capt Moya suggests, and most airline training managers are currently looking to decrease their training costs by any means possible, and if they can save on base training costs, they will.

There is another, less obvious but equally worrying, side effect to this relentless downward pressure on training costs.

This is the trend not to select the best available candidate for a particular vacancy - in terms of hours, previous experience, personal qualities etc - but rather to select the candidate who will be the cheapest to train on to the aircraft in question.

A short-sighted policy in my view, as I would always prefer to take an above-average candidate, with no experience on type, ahead of an average pilot, who just happened to have the right type rating.

Regards

Bellerophon
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Thu Feb 06, 2003 11:19 pm

"I think you will find, in the UK at least, there is no absolute requirement for a pilot who has not flown a particular type before, to go base flying."

That's interesting, I always simply assumed it was a requirement (the CAA 757/767 type rating application form I have does not suggest the base training can be excluded). In reality, whilst it is perfectly possible for someone to go simulator to line flights immediately, I think it is very rare on larger aircraft?

I certainly learned some invaluable lessons on my base training.

If you don't mind me asking, what was your last (and current) type?

I agree with your sentiments regarding airline recruitment. If they can get type rated pilots, no-one else gets a look in. It makes economic sense, but whether the airline subsequently benefits from a pool of very good pilots is questionable.

I have always favoured a "mixed" approach to recruitment, with each selection taking a group of candidates with a wide range of experience, age and background, all of course with the right personality for the job. I think that would result in a very strong, competent and happy pilot workforce in years to come.

In reality though that would be an expensive business, with many of the successful candidates requiring a full type rating course.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:00 am

Rick767, I have 5 FAA type ratings and have never flown a pilot training flight in an aircraft. All were completed in simulators at AA, Pan Am & MDC facilities.

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 12:22 am

Wow, this is more common than I thought then...

Airlines could save a fortune not doing this:


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I still maintain it provides invaluable hands-on experience though.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 7:42 am

In the US airlines, you basically never do actual aircraft "base training." You go straight from the simulator into your "OE" (or IOE at some airlines) with full passengers and a training captain.
Chicks dig winglets.
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 8:01 am

How long does the Operating Experience last?

I imagine it is equivalent to our "Line Training" where we have normal passenger flights with a Training Captain in the left hand seat, you in the right and a safety pilot in the jumpseat (normally a First Officer). The number of sectors line training required varies depending on experience, but I did 45 sectors and a final line check flight.

Then there was a 100hr proficiency check (100 hours after line training completion) with a Training Captain in the jumpseat checking you haven't fallen into any bad habits.

All this of course after a day bashing it out in the circuit with an empty aeroplane as seen above....

Would be very interested to see how the US airlines compare...
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 9:46 am

I should note that a pilot seeking a type rating solely in a simulator must meet certain experience requirements to avoid the requirement to do training in the actual aircraft.


Title 14--Aeronautics and Space
CHAPTER I--FEDERAL AVIATION ADMINISTRATION, DEPARTMENT OF TRANSPORTATION
Part 61: Certification: Pilots, flight instructors, and ground instructors


Section 61.63: Additional aircraft ratings (other than on an airline transport pilot certificate).
(a) General. To be eligible for an additional aircraft rating to a pilot certificate, for other than an airline transport pilot certificate, an applicant must meet the appropriate requirements of this section for the additional aircraft rating sought.

(b) Additional category rating. An applicant who holds a pilot certificate and applies to add a category rating to that pilot certificate:

(1) Must have received the required training and possess the aeronautical experience prescribed by this part that applies to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;

(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;

(3) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient on the areas of operation that are appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought;

(4) Must pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category and, if applicable, class rating sought; and

(5) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

(c) Additional class rating. Any person who applies for an additional class rating to be added on a pilot certificate:

(1) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;

(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient in the areas of operation appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;

(3) Must pass the required practical test that is appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought;

(4) Need not meet the specified training time requirements prescribed by this part that apply to the pilot certificate for the aircraft class rating sought unless the person holds a a lighter-than-air category rating with a balloon class rating and is seeking an airship class rating and

(5) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating at that pilot certificate level.

(d) Additional type rating. Except as specified in paragraph (d)(7) of this section, a person who applies for an additional aircraft type rating to be added on a pilot certificate, or the addition of an aircraft type rating that is accomplished concurrently with an additional aircraft category or class rating:

(1) Must hold or concurrently obtain an instrument rating that is appropriate to the aircraft category, class, or type rating sought;

(2) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found competent in the aeronautical knowledge areas appropriate to the pilot certificate for the aircraft category, class, or type rating sought;

(3) Must have an endorsement in his or her logbook, or training record from an authorized instructor, and that endorsement must attest that the applicant has been found proficient in the areas of operation required for the issuance of an airline transport pilot certificate for the aircraft category, class, and type rating sought;

(4) Must pass the required practical test appropriate to the airline transport pilot certificate for the aircraft category, class, and type rating sought;

(5) Must perform the practical test in actual or simulated instrument conditions, unless the aircraft's type certificate makes the aircraft incapable of operating under instrument flight rules. If the practical test cannot be accomplished for this reason, the person may obtain a type rating limited to "VFR only." The "VFR only" limitation may be removed for that aircraft type when the person passes the practical test in actual or simulated instrument conditions. When an instrument rating is issued to a person who holds one or more type ratings, the type ratings on the amended pilot certificate shall bear the "VFR only" limitation for each aircraft type rating for which the person has not demonstrated instrument competency;

(6) Need not take an additional knowledge test, provided the applicant holds an airplane, rotorcraft, powered-lift, or airship rating on their pilot certificate; and

(7) In the case of a pilot employee of a part 121 or a part 135 certificate holder, must have --

(i) Met the appropriate requirements of paragraphs (d)(1), (d)(4), and (d)(5) of this section for the aircraft type rating sought; and

(ii) Received an endorsement in his or her flight training record from the certificate holder attesting that the applicant has completed the certificate holder's approved ground and flight training program appropriate to the aircraft type rating sought.

(e) Use of a flight simulator or flight training device for an additional rating in an airplane. The areas of operation required to be performed by paragraphs (b), (c), and (d) of this section shall be performed as follows:

(1) Except as provided in paragraph (e)(2) of this section, the areas of operation must be performed in an airplane of the same category, class, and type, if applicable, as the airplane for which the additional rating is sought.

(2) Subject to the limitations of paragraph (e)(3) through (e)(12) of this section, the areas of operation may be performed in a flight simulator or flight training device that represents the airplane for which the additional rating is sought.

(3) The use of a flight simulator or flight training device permitted by paragraph (e)(2) of this section shall be conducted in accordance with an approved course at a training center certificated under part 142 of this chapter.

(4) To complete all training and testing (except preflight inspection) for an additional airplane rating without limitations when using a flight simulator --

(i) The flight simulator must be qualified and approved as Level C or Level D; and

(ii) The applicant must meet at least one of the following:

(A) Hold a type rating for a turbojet airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been appointed by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a type rating in a turbojet airplane is sought.

(B) Hold a type rating for a turbopropeller airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, or have been designated by a military service as a pilot in command of an airplane of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought, if a type rating in a turbopropeller airplane is sought.

(C) Have at least 2,000 hours of flight time, of which 500 hours is in turbine-powered airplanes of the same class of airplane for which the type rating is sought.

(D) Have at least 500 hours of flight time in the same type airplane as the airplane for which the rating is sought.

(E) Have at least 1,000 hours of flight time in at least two different airplanes requiring a type rating.

(5) Subject to the limitation of paragraph (e)(6) of this section, an applicant who does not meet the requirements of paragraph (e)(4) of this section may complete all training and testing (except for preflight inspection) for an additional rating when using a flight simulator if --

(i) The flight simulator is qualified and approved as a Level C or Level D; and

(ii) The applicant meets at least one of the following:

(A) Holds a type rating in a propeller-driven airplane if a type rating in a turbojet airplane is sought, or holds a type rating in a turbojet airplane if a type rating in a propeller-driven airplane is sought; or

(B) Since the beginning of the 12th calendar month before the month in which the applicant completes the practical test for an additional airplane rating, has logged:

(1) At least 100 hours of flight time in airplanes of the same class for which the type rating is sought and which requires a type rating; and

(2) At least 25 hours of flight time in airplanes of the same type for which the rating is sought.

(6) An applicant meeting only the requirements of paragraph (e)(5) of this section will be issued an additional rating with a limitation.

(7) The limitation on a certificate issued under the provisions of paragraph (e)(6) of this section shall state, "This certificate is subject to pilot-in-command limitations for the additional rating."

(8) An applicant who has been issued a pilot certificate with the limitation specified in paragraph (e)(7) of this section --

(i) May not act as pilot in command of that airplane for which the additional rating was obtained under the provisions of this section until the limitation is removed from the pilot certificate; and

(ii) May have the limitation removed by accomplishing 15 hours of supervised operating experience as pilot in command under the supervision of a qualified and current pilot in command, in the seat normally occupied by the pilot in command, in the same type of airplane to which the limitation applies.

(9) An applicant who does not meet the requirements of paragraph (e)(4) or paragraph (e)(5) of this section may be issued an additional rating after successful completion of one of the following requirements:

(i) Compliance with paragraphs (e)(2) and (e)(3) of this section and the following tasks, which must be successfully completed on a static airplane or in flight, as appropriate:

(A) Preflight inspection;

(B) Normal takeoff;

(C) Normal ILS approach;

(D) Missed approach; and

(E) Normal landing.

(ii) Compliance with paragraphs (e)(2), (e)(3), and (e)(10) through (e)(12) of this section.

(10) An applicant meeting only the requirements of paragraph (e)(9)(ii) of this section will be issued an additional rating with a limitation.

(11) The limitation on a certificate issued under the provisions of paragraph (e)(10) of this section shall state, "This certificate is subject to pilot-in-command limitations for the additional rating."

(12) An applicant who has been issued a pilot certificate with the limitation specified in paragraph (e)(11) of this section --

(i) May not act as pilot in command of that airplane for which the additional rating was obtained under the provisions of this section until the limitation is removed from the pilot certificate; and

(ii) May have the limitation removed by accomplishing 25 hours of supervised operating experience as pilot in command under the supervision of a qualified and current pilot in command, in the seat normally occupied by the pilot in command, in that airplane of the same type to which the limitation applies.

Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6030
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:28 am

In Hong Kong it is mandatory to do a landing in the aircraft in day, night and to do a simulated engine out landing. These cannot be done in the sim.

We do all our base training in Shenzhen or Macau.
 
XFSUgimpLB41X
Posts: 3960
Joined: Fri Aug 25, 2000 1:18 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 2:31 pm

Jhooper...boy i sure do hope you copied and pasted that....
Chicks dig winglets.
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Fri Feb 07, 2003 11:19 pm

How long does the Operating Experience last?

Minimum of 25 hours at AA. For a crewmember new to the position (i.e. CA, FO, FE) the minimum 25 hours can not be reduced for any reason. For a crewmember qualified in the position, but new to the aircraft it can be reduced by 1 hour for every 1 landing, but never less than 13 hours. For new upgrading Captains an actual FAA Checkairman must fly the final qualifying flight and sign the qualification paperwork (i.e. an FAA appointed "designee" is not sufficient).

I imagine it is equivalent to our "Line Training" where we have normal passenger flights with a Training Captain in the left hand seat, you in the right and a safety pilot in the jumpseat (normally a First Officer). The number of sectors line training required varies depending on experience, but I did 45 sectors and a final line check flight.

Similar. My FE LOE (Line Operating Experience) was done with the standard crew and an additional FE Checkairman in the jumpseat observing me. My FO IOEs (Initial Operating Experience) were done with a Captain Checkairman in the left seat and me in the right seat (no non-FAA Checkairman jumpseater allowed). My CA IOEs were done with me in the left seat and a Captain Checkairman in the right seat (same restrictions on jumpseat use).

Then there was a 100hr proficiency check (100 hours after line training completion) with a Training Captain in the jumpseat checking you haven't fallen into any bad habits.

Same here. Not exactly at 100 hours, but it will be done. My MD80 FO 100 hour check was completed after 14 months of line flying --someone realized they missed a few folks so we all got a two-leg trip with a Captain Checkairman who was flying a standard monthly schedule (or so he thought).

*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Bellerophon
Posts: 516
Joined: Thu May 09, 2002 10:12 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Sat Feb 08, 2003 8:00 am

Rick767

My last type was the B747, on which I instructed for several years, until I was fortunate enough to be offered a course on my current type, another four engined, three crew jet.

Very limited route structure, but an absolute delight to fly.

AAR90

You have confirmed my suspicions that base training, as we call it in the UK, has pretty much died out in the USA, certainly among the major airlines, and that most US pilots now convert to new types just as you describe. My feeling is that the UK is rapidly heading the same way.

Interesting to remember that many years ago, when some very experienced Braniff pilots converted on to my current type, the FAA took a rather different view, and insisted, to general delight, that they all had to go base flying.

Regards

Bellerophon
 
ScooterTrash
Posts: 553
Joined: Thu Aug 02, 2001 10:39 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Sat Feb 08, 2003 12:19 pm

While it is true that training in the actual aircraft seems to be a thing of the past a major airlines in the U.S., it is not so at regional airlines. At both of the airlines I have worked for (flying the ATR42/72 and the DHC-8) All of my initial training, excluding upset training, took place in the actual aircraft. All of my recurrent training, however, has been in the simulator.

At my current airline, SOE (or IOE or OE depending on who you work for) is 25 cycles, not hours.
 
SkyGuy11
Posts: 532
Joined: Fri Oct 26, 2001 7:09 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Sat Feb 08, 2003 1:28 pm

A friend of mine just finished up on the CRJ for Skywest. The final part of his training involved going up in the REAL airplane and doing circuits, including a simulated engine out approach.
.
 
vc10
Posts: 1342
Joined: Thu Nov 15, 2001 4:13 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Sun Feb 09, 2003 1:58 am

Bellapron,
Remember when Braniff converted onto your present type the simulators still had the old fashion visual [ model and camera ] and the simulators were then as now not cleared for full training without base flying. It is only the huge improvements in simulators over the last decade or so that has allowed the authorities including the FAA to modify their views on zero time training
Regards little vc10
 
Guest

RE: Airline Training Flights

Wed Feb 12, 2003 4:43 am

In Italy is the same as in the UK. The basic type rating must be flown in a real a/c.

 
Guest

RE: Airline Training Flights

Wed Feb 12, 2003 1:55 pm

Hi friends -
1983... back then with PanAm, a 727 captain, I went to the 747... ground training was 80 hours classroom (2 weeks) then simulator (16 hours)... a week later I flew my first trip... 747 captain... I did fly 4 sectors with a check captain (about 30 hours total) between JFK and Europe... That is it...
xxx
I never would have told the passenger that "their captain" was a virgin and never had flown the 747 before... lucky, my first landing was a real "kisser"...
xxx
If I remember well, FAA requires the first "jet type rating" (in English - the first jet aircraft endorsement as P1) to include 3 takeoffs and landings... for me I had done that in the 727... I later obtained ratings in 707, DC8 and finally the 747, without ever requiring training "in aircraft"...
xxx
Happy contrails to all  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
AAR90
Posts: 3140
Joined: Fri Jan 21, 2000 11:51 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Wed Feb 12, 2003 3:22 pm

If I remember well, FAA requires the first "jet type rating" (in English - the first jet aircraft endorsement as P1) to include 3 takeoffs and landings...

Not anymore. All my type ratings were obtained in Level-D simulators.
*NO CARRIER* -- A Naval Aviator's worst nightmare!
 
Guest

RE: Airline Training Flights

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:22 pm

In L4 we have both test. First we go to BA for the simulator for the emergency check than we return in Italy and we have training flight (normally at Sunday).
For training flight we make ferry flight from MXP to some remote airport such as TRS or RMI with a cpt and a F/O. After the landing the F/O leave the right seat to the new pilot and we begin the training flight as described by rick767. After this flight we make 20 sectors with a training cpt and another 20 with a line cpt with a safety F/O onboard. At the end of this 40 sectors we have a line check and only after this test we are ready for the line flight.
 
MarkTPA
Posts: 94
Joined: Thu Jun 08, 2000 1:54 pm

RE: Airline Training Flights

Wed Feb 26, 2003 3:42 pm

I just completed the 3M F/O program. We did almost everything in the full motion sim and did an 85% checkride. I have to do a 15% check ride in the aircraft before I start IOE. IOE duration we are told is about 20-25 hours.
 
musang
Posts: 788
Joined: Sun Apr 08, 2001 4:11 am

RE: Airline Training Flights

Wed Feb 26, 2003 8:38 pm

Depends whether the sim is ZFT, zero flight time rated. The BA 737 sims are, so no base training, straight into line training (IOE). Or route training, as BA calls it. The RJ 100 sims (not BA owned) are not ZFT, although interestingly, 737 pilots converting to the RJ say the latter has much better visuals. But there's more to it than that.

Regards - Musang. No t.

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