cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:00 am

I'm sure not many people will touch this topic....but I'm hoping. But are we providing the info for some maniac(s)??
Let me first say that I like this forum. It's a great opportunity to share things learned and learn new things. I remember what it was like to so very curious about how airplanes worked and stuff like that. And while the job of an aircraft technician has satisfied my curiousity about airplane systems - none of us know it all.
But do you ever get the thought that maybe, just maybe we provide a little too much information here??
I mean, it's not like the Airliners.net Tech-Forum is the Aviation MX/Flight Ops information capital on the net. There are flight sim add-ons out there that are so real, they can be used for cockpit training. There are internet sites that sell Flight Manuals to anyone with a credit card.
But whats stopping someone from taking the information learned here, (such as procedures on how to start an airliner) and doing something dangerous. And before you say it can't happen, yadayada, the planes are always parked at the gate, yadayada, there is always someone on them, let's be realistic.
Maybe it is taboo to talk about this kind of thing here, but it's just food for thought. Besides, it's not like I'm introducing this idea for the first time.

I guess it's the era we live in, becasue there is just so much information out there.

Any thoughts??
Do I sound paranoid??
Anybody agree??
Anybody home?!?

***this post is not to offend ANYONE in here who asks questions like how to start an airliner, etc...***
 
Guest

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:18 am

I think your concern is valid, but it's not like a 'psycho' can't get the information somewhere else. And like you said, this isn't exactly "information central." And if we told someone something like "open the bleed valves and make sure that you have at least __ psi." Chances are slim that the average person wouldn't know what a bleed valve was, or how to open one. And besides, you need to know a lot more than just how to get the thing started (not to mention the fact that you'd have to be pushed back....)

Putting it this way, if I were a 'psycho,' which I'm not, I'd probably look for more comprehensive sources for my information. (My 737-200 training manual from UAL, for example.)

'Speed
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:27 am

I know what you mean regarding the technical stuff in depth system descriptions. But I'm talkin the procedures stuff.
I don't think any "maniac" is worried about fixing the airplane.
And trust me, a pushback in some areas of certain airports is certainly not necessary.
And of course YOU would consult your training manual. You are affliated with the industry in some sort of capacity. You have access to this information, as well you should.
I'm just not so sure that Essco Aircraft http://www.esscoaircraft.com/flightmanuals2.html should be igivng this stuff away without some means of identifying who they are selling it to.

CdfMxTech
 
Guest

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:35 am

What, no CRJ?

Yeah, you're probably right. The general public probably shouldn't have access to those manuals (although I bookmarked the site).

'Speed

P.S. I already have a CRJ manual

 
shaun3000
Posts: 439
Joined: Thu Mar 14, 2002 4:10 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:35 am

No, the information discussed here is nothing that can't be found, elsewhere.

Anyone who wants to do something bad enough will find a way to do it. We aren't helping.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:40 am

Information can be used for good or for evil, but we live in an information age. If you want information on just about anything, just go to your public library. Should we restrict information in public libraries? Not if you want to still say you live in "free country".
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
Guest

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:51 am

Friends -
Technical info that is generally available elsewhere, I do not mind to share here in the forum... realize that the scenario, i.e. of an individual who quickly learns to fly a Cessna in Florida, then goes to a 757-767 simulator Training Center, so to learn to "crash it" this time... on Mt. Rushmore, is now virtually impossible, any trainee is now subject to investigation before starting training (may take 30 days to get you in a simulator)...
xxx
As to providing here some specific information, which is highly confidential, such as "do I carry a pistol" or how do I know that the plane is hijacked, when a flight attendant asks me "what I want for dinner"... are the type of information that I will not give.
xxx
Advise Mr. Osama that for his next terrorist attack, he might have to resort to an "Ultralight" - hoping his beard does not get caught in the propeller...
Happy contrails  Smile
(s) Skipper
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 9:55 am

Thanks CdfMxTech, that's a really cool website. Thanks for sharing it w/ us.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:00 am

umm...your welcome??
 
ryu2
Posts: 1546
Joined: Tue Aug 06, 2002 8:18 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:15 am

There was a discussion in another flightsim forum after 9/11 about this.

I learned that as for aircraft manuals, there are TWO different manuals carried by pilots are the aircraft-specific flight manual, which covers systems, procedures, checklists, etc. related to flying the airplane itself, and the airline Operations Manual, which covers airline-wide policies and procedures, including security/hijacking/bomb-related plans. It's the OPERATIONS manual which is considered confidential and never made available to the public.

But the FLIGHT manual covers flying the plane only, is not secret, and which are used by many flight-sim aircraft/panel designers or other aviation enthusiasts. It's hard to learn how to "fly" a plane just by reading a book, no?
 
Guest

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:49 am

Dear Ryu2 -
xxx
You are correct, there is the aircraft operations or flight manual, which is a technical manual, specific to the airplane, then another manual, called the operations manual, which is specific to the airline, and may (or may not) contain confidential information...
xxx
Fact is, learning "from a book" yes... can be done... and (unfortunately), these 9/11 hijackers did not need superior airmanship... any private pilot - could control an aircraft (in cruise) from A to B with the minimum aeronautical knowledge acquired in a light aircraft.
xxx
(s) Skipper
 
BR715-A1-30
Posts: 6525
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RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:00 am

Hi Guys, I am interested in going to flight school. Can someone please answer my questions.

1. How do you start engines on 757 aircraft?
2. Ok, Now How you taxi aircraft?
3. Ok, Now how you set flaps for takeoff
uh...4. Yeah, Now I need to know how you takeoff
5. How you work the controls
6. How you turn the plane (Do you use the gas pedals by my feet)
7. How do you aim?
8. How you pushback from gate using engine thrust?
9. How you pressurize planecraft
10. How you hire kamikaze flight attendant? oops. scratch that question.  Sad

Ok, That be all questions I need know. Please help

Signed,
Achmed Muhammed  Big grin

This post is not intended to mock those who died in the sept. 11 terrorist attacks, but is intended to mock the stupidity of those who caused the whole d*** thing in the first place.
Puhdiddle
 
737doctor
Posts: 1291
Joined: Mon Mar 19, 2001 4:52 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:44 am

That's exactly why I declined to answer the engine start procedures question...
Patrick Bateman is my hero.
 
mirrodie
Posts: 6789
Joined: Wed Apr 19, 2000 3:33 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 11:47 am

Anybody home?!? Think mcfly, think!!!!

Seriously, I have had those thougths too CDX, but our media does a far better job than this website could ever do!


Besides, if I didn't have this website, I would not have met you or Skipper or anyone else.

I'm a proud idealist American and I gonna enjoy this site today and let tomorrow bring whatever comes.



Forum moderator 2001-2010; He's a pedantic, pontificating, pretentious bastard, a belligerent old fart, a worthless st
 
AMERICAN757
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:08 pm

im a physco, but dont worry im the good kind
 
AMERICAN757
Posts: 440
Joined: Sat Mar 24, 2001 12:31 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:13 pm

seriously, i thought about that, and what if we are, do you think any of the terrorists that were on the planes on 911 were ever at this site, makes me wonder, scary, this site cant have enough information to actually help them plot something. could it, should we stop using this website? hmmm i hope not their not smart enough to find this website
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 12:24 pm

There shouldn't be any security sensitive information posted here. But if it's publicly available (i.e. not classified) then post away.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
cdfmxtech
Posts: 1319
Joined: Wed Jul 05, 2000 11:37 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 2:36 pm

Guys, thanx for the feedback.
 
ovelix
Posts: 606
Joined: Mon Aug 30, 1999 12:50 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Thu Feb 20, 2003 10:57 pm

It depens on where you get the info from. With all those arm-chair mechanics here and a phsycho gathering info from them, he would never manage even to get in the plane, let alone starting engines etc..  Smile

Kostas

 
Fokker Lover
Posts: 523
Joined: Fri May 10, 2002 10:05 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 7:38 am

I've thought of this before, and there were a couple of posts that I have also ignored because they just didn't seem right. It would be naive of us to think that only well intentioned, stand up individuals read this stuff. Don't believe that you only have to worry about "professional terrorists" that are as well trained as the U.S. military. There are plenty of psychos that just might think they got the last piece of information they need to do something stupid right here. I believe it would be inappropriate to discuss the new cockpit doors, or their security codes.
(Even though I have a few funny stories I could tell about them.) We also shouldn't talk about the different functions of AOA badges or the color codes. We could possibly disclose a certain bit of information about airports or even different planes, thinking it was nothing, but then it could turn out to be the missing key they needed.
If you still think it's impossible to steal an airplane, I know that I personally have walked onto an airplane (more than once), without a uniform, and taxied it away from the gate. All without seeing another person, or even being questioned. I also know of a 737 that was reposessed in the middle of the night without anybody even noticing. I can't remember their name, but it was a small startup that had a red, white, and blue paint scheme like the American flag. They flew out of PIT with 2 or 3 737's. So, it is possible to just take one. I would just say use some common sense and think about what you are saying before you type.
10,000 years ago we would have eaten you. Today, we drag you along and allow you to pollute the gene pool.
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 8:35 am

You're right Fokker lover; it is certainly not impossible to steal a jet. In fact, there are some possible serious security concerns in this area that need to be addressed, although I won't say specifically in this forum (so as to not give the wrong people ideas). But my role as a CFI is to convey aviation knowledge to people who seek it. And since I don't have any kind of national security clearance and not subject to any non-disclosure agreements, then I guess it follows that what I know about flying is fair game to share with others. If I had the hint that someone may try to use the knowledge in evil ways, I certainly would address my concerns to the appropriate people. But as others have said, it's hard to evaluate people intentions on this website. Thus if someone who is genuinely interested in airplanes asks me a question, and the information is publicly available (to me), then I don't have a problem answering it if I know the answer. Obviously, I would refer questions concerning proprietary company information and procedures to the appropriate company sources who would have the authority to divulge the information.
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
CX Flyboy
Posts: 6026
Joined: Sun Dec 26, 1999 6:10 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 10:52 am

Like some people have said, it is easy to get hold of manuals and things and learn all sorts about the aircraft and how to fly.

What is dangerous and should not be discussed, and I believe we are quite good here at discussiong what is appropriate and what is not, is security procedures. Airlines have stablished security procedures of what do to in a hijack situation. We say things that are established phrases to use in these situations, and do things in the cockpit which we would not normally do, but we could get away with even if a hijacker was sitting in the cockpit, because they don't know our procedures. Some new aircraft are getting numerical keypads for cockpit access. These codes should never be public knowledge, obviously.

A bit of common sense and this forum can continue to quench the curious thirst of enthusiasts wanting to learn, without letting anything out which should not be in the public domain.
 
FltMech9
Posts: 55
Joined: Sun May 27, 2001 10:29 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:01 am

Your probably a drop out of the Osama Bin Laden School of Terriorism if your on this site getting information about doing evil deeds with airplanes. There are many more ways to find out info than on a public web site. Plus I'm sure they can trace back to any computer used to view this site. I personally think people on this forum do an outstanding job of answering questions with out violating security measures. I hope people are not afraid to ask questions, but understand there are boundaries we can not exceed. This web site is for people who love aviation and want to share their knowledge with others.

FltMech9
 
covert
Posts: 1500
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RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 11:04 am

That was Nationsair, Fokker Lover.... lol

none
 
OPNLguy
Posts: 11191
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RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Fri Feb 21, 2003 12:11 pm

>>>Any thoughts?? Do I sound paranoid?? Anybody agree??

As has been said, there's tons of stuff available out there that we have no control over.

That said, there's still no reason to make it -easier- for someone intent on trolling a.net for info with which to do possible harm. For that reason, I also watch my replies so as not to give anything away. Sure, they still might be able to find out the info elsewhere, but I'll be able to sleep at night knowing that -I- didn't give anything away, nor will I run the risk of having satellite TV trucks in front of my house with reporters screaming "J'accuse!"
ALL views, opinions expressed are mine ONLY and are NOT representative of those shared by Southwest Airlines Co.
 
backfire
Posts: 3467
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RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:02 am

If a psycho was trawling A.net for information, he'd end up spending so much time trying to sort out the useful and reliable information from the mistakes, guesses and just plain incorrect statements that he wouldn't have time to cause any mischief elsewhere.  Insane
 
A/c train
Posts: 674
Joined: Sun Jun 10, 2001 7:57 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sat Feb 22, 2003 6:22 am

How much do you really need to know too crash an airplane ? some pilots struggle with keeping it in the air on some a/c.
I think the problem (this is open to suggestion) is IN FLIGHT hijack, hit enough buttons on the flight control unit and im sure a terrorist could do his worst.
Interesting topic Cdfmxtech, I join most in saying I had thought about it before, You never know whos looking in !

regards,
a/c
 
mandala499
Posts: 6458
Joined: Wed Aug 29, 2001 8:47 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sat Feb 22, 2003 8:20 am

Believe it or not, information on what "procedures" with regards to instrumentation, certain non cockpit indications after landing and security intended error for discreen visual notification... is available on the net... I actually found juicy stuff on a US Govt. flying service site... but none from the airlines....

Flight Ops/admin and crew emergency manuals I legally obtained (though with no specific clearance/authorisation) does not have the juicy parts... although that depends on the airline issuing the manuals...

So, the non profs... don't worry about it...
the pros... you know what you can or cannot disclose...
for all us... just a little common sense...

Mandala499
When losing situational awareness, pray Cumulus Granitus isn't nearby !
 
dragogoalie
Posts: 1172
Joined: Sun Oct 14, 2001 3:58 pm

Re:

Sat Feb 22, 2003 9:38 am

No, I think all the psychos post solely in the non-av forum  Wink/being sarcastic

--dragogoalie-#88--
Formerly known as Jap. Srsly. AUSTRALIA: 2 days!
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:33 am

Dragogoalie,

Actually, no, we post here as well. In fact, we tend to avoid the non-av forum because it's populated by non-psychos. The reason why we are employed by the design world is that we can think like a psycho and so design to prevent such occurrences (just like a hacker being employed as a security consultant).

I'd like to add that not all designers are psychos. But it helps (and, for once, I'm not talking humourously). I'm working on the next 2 or 3 generations of aircraft, and 'psychos' are a major feature of the requirements specifications.

======

Completely off topic here, but this (allegedly) is a question used as part of a test to see if you are psychopathic, in the context of a criminal lawsuit:

A young lady is at her mother's funeral. She sees a good looking young man. She goes home and kills her sister. Why?

----

Allegedly, psychopaths are able to get the answer VERY quickly. Let me know your thoughts. I'll post the answer in about 48 hours.

Enjoy!
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sat Feb 22, 2003 1:13 pm

A young lady is at her mother's funeral. She sees a good looking young man. She goes home and kills her sister. Why?

So he'll go to the next funeral and she can see him again?
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sat Feb 22, 2003 10:14 pm

We have a winner!

See, I told you the psychos come to this forum!
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...
 
jhooper
Posts: 5560
Joined: Thu Dec 13, 2001 8:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sun Feb 23, 2003 7:41 am

For the record, a relative provided me with an answer  Big grin
Last year 1,944 New Yorkers saw something and said something.
 
ben
Posts: 1369
Joined: Fri Aug 06, 1999 9:27 pm

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Sun Feb 23, 2003 10:01 am

Hi Bsergonomics,

You say:
Allegedly, psychopaths are able to get the answer VERY quickly.

I realise that you know so much more about this subject than me... but Ive been wanting to have this rant for a while, and ask you some questions at the same time.

How can you tell that I am a psycho just by the speed I respond? Maybe I am a smart guy who can think laterally very quickly. By the way, the question is worded in such a way as to lead you directly to the answer, quickly! Or maybe I think that because I really am an axe-murderer?!?!?!

I am interested to know (for real, because I obviously know very little about the subject) how you justify all this psychometric testing. Is it really that accurate? What if Im having a bad day and happen to tick the wrong answer to the 'buried' question that indicates Im going to fly my plane into Big Ben? Does the marking-key include comments like: A-Employ him B-Fire him C-Liar D-CallMI5Quicksmart ???

It really gets me going, how someone can claim to know how my mind works, just with a bunch of seemingly irrelevant questions.

According to that logic, we could have a conversation like this:

Ben, are you a psycho?
- No!
That was a quick answer, you must be hiding something.
- Well Im not.
So youre denying it. You are a psycho and a good liar too.
- This is ridiculous, why cant you understand that Im not lying?
That is exactly what a psycho would say - you are in a lot of trouble, young man.
- OK! Wait right there while I get my chainsaw.

Hmm.. that actually DOES sound familiar.. substitute "psycho" for "seeing another woman" and its a conversation that I have quite often indeed. Oops, without the chainsaw remark.  Smile/happy/getting dizzy
 
bsergonomics
Posts: 458
Joined: Thu Jan 31, 2002 5:07 am

RE: Are We Providing The Info For A Psycho?

Mon Feb 24, 2003 5:47 am

I can't write much - am up to the proverbials in work and will be for a week or so. When I get a chance, I'll scribble more.

I fully understand the average person's distrust of psychometric testing (and the question posted above was not an example of standard psychometric testing as such. I'll try an explain later). The test, like any test, examines you and your thought train at the time of the test. The results do not specifically describe Peter Wilkinbubble of 69 Acacia Avenue (my apologies if such a person exists), they describe which personality traits, and their strength, you exhibit from your answers ON THAT PARTICULAR DAY.

Those traits that you have exhibited are then compared with the 'ideal' ones for that particular job. You don't have to be an exact match, by any means. The tests simply categorise you.

There are better and worse tests. I have often heard that SR-71 pilots had to be married. You could argue that the fact that you haven't yet found your perfect partner is an unjust reason why you can't fly this particular aircraft. It also begs the question, what happens if you get divorced? Do you get grounded for a variety of reasons completely unconnected with your ability to fly a mission?

The 'psycho' question above was one that I heard in a pub. I happened to get it right (are you worried yet?). As far as I know, it's apocryphal. However, as one of a battery of tests, I understand the theory behind it. The fundamental question that is being asked is, "Can you dislocate your thought processes from social norms?" As such, many people can get the answer right without being psychos. However, in the context of a criminal trial (as I understand it), it is a useful test to see if you are a psycho (and so appropriate for psychotherapy...) or a normal murderer.

This is fairly incoherent, but I'll try and scribble a better explanation when I get a chance.

In the meantime, enjoy the chainsaw! Not my favourite, but I can see your point of view...  Big grin
The definition of a 'Pessimist': an Optimist with experience...

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