JohnnyFitz
Topic Author
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:53 pm

Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:43 am

I fly quite frequently and I thought that I had all of my questions answered. I was landing in San Diego on a B757. I heard the landing gear go down but when I looked out the window I had also noticed that as we were on finals that the flaps were still being lowered.

Hence my question: Is landing gear usually the last activity that takes place before landing, or is there activity in terms of surface movement for flaps, spoilers etc...

Thank you!
 
m717
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 pm

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sat Jun 14, 2003 3:54 am

On all of the transport jets that I have flown, which include the B757, the flaps are set to an intermediate (approach) setting prior to landing gear extension. After the gear is extended, landing flaps are selected.

In fact, if you select landing flaps without the landing gear being extended, you will get a warning.

[Edited 2003-06-13 21:01:41]
 
jcxp15
Posts: 989
Joined: Fri Jun 29, 2001 12:05 pm

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:10 am

Yea the Gear goes down before the appropriate "angle" landing flaps are selected most times...
 
JohnnyFitz
Topic Author
Posts: 2
Joined: Fri Jun 13, 2003 11:53 pm

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sat Jun 14, 2003 4:25 am

Ok, thanks for the info...then as landing flaps are selected is this when the plane is considered on finals?

What dictates the "angle" needed for landing say a 757?
 
Rick767
Posts: 2613
Joined: Sun Jan 30, 2000 8:11 pm

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sat Jun 14, 2003 8:56 am

JohnnyFitz,

I can tell you how the typical approach procedure works for a 757/767.

At BY we have a "standard" procedure for a typical radar-vectored ILS approach, which the crew will generally always follow unless circumstances dictate otherwise:

Initial approach: Flaps UP, Speed Vref + 80
Deceleration: Flaps 1, Speed VRef + 60
Approaching LOC intercept HDG: Flap 5, Speed Vref + 40
1.5 dots glideslope "fly up": Flap 20, Vref + 40
**GLIDESLOPE INTERCEPT occurs @ Flap 20, VRef + 40, Gear Up**
2,000ft AAL on glideslope: Gear Down, VRef + 20
1,500ft AAL on glideslope: Flap 30, VRef + 5 (+ any wind increment)

The idea is to have the aircraft stabilised on the glideslope in the landing configuration by 1,000ft AAL, which seems pretty close to landing but is actually a perfectly adequate distance from the numbers. In reality if you're not going to make a stabilised configured approach by this point it becomes apparent much sooner than this (been there, done that!).

Exceptions then... if we are approaching into a strong headwind it is prudent to use a reduced flap setting and stick at VRef + 40 with Flap 5 or even Flap 15 for a prolonged period, since it makes no sense to use an excessive thrust setting any longer than necessary on approach in these conditions.

Non-precision approaches (non-ILS) are also an exception but in general the flap / gear / speed schedule will not usually be wildly different to the above, especially if the crew are visual with the runway.

The above "standard" ILS profile is regarded by the company as the best procedure to "save fuel, reduce the approach noise footprint and facilitate the most common ATC speed controls applied at busier airports"

Whether US 757/767 carriers apply the same procedure I don't know... it would be interesting to find out.

In any event M717 correctly pointed out that a landing configuration warning will be generated if we select landing flaps with the gear still up (on the 757/767 "GEAR NOT DOWN" in red on upper EICAS with Master Warning Lights, Configuration Warning Light and an Aural Warning Siren!).

The same occurs even if you don't have landing flap selected and descend below 800ft RA... it is inexcusable to land these planes with the gear up as you would have to endure a good 60 seconds of lights flashing and sirens going off.

Anyway I trust the above profile will help you understand what to expect on your next 757 trip. One unanswered question though...

"What dictates the "angle" needed for landing say a 757?"

Landing Flap angle is dictated by the Performance Manual. In BY we keep it simple, Flap 30 for every landing unless the QRH calls for a lower setting (usually Flap 20) in the event of a malfunction. I think some airlines (like BA) permit a normal Flap 25 landing when runway length is sufficient, but we don't do this ourselves.
I used to love the smell of Jet-A in the morning...
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:00 am

I know that it is a small step for a poster but a giant leap for A.net: you see it all the time here but the correct term is "final" and not "finals". The term come from the phrase "final leg" of a standard traffic pattern. There is an "upwind leg," "crosswind leg," "downwind leg," "base leg," and "final leg". You would no more say "finals" than you would say "bases" or "downwinds" to describe a traffic pattern segment.

Further breakdowns of the term may be used to describe where the aircraft is on the final leg, especially for traffic separation purposes. For example, an aircraft making a long, straight-in approach will be said to be on "long final" or an aircraft about to cross the fence or threshold can be said to be on "short final".

Further uses of the term "final" can be found in IFR operations, such as "final approach fix," but it is always the singular form of the word. It plain makes no sense to say that an aircraft is on "finals".
 
Guest

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:16 am

30E...
Boy, am I glad that you finally clarified that.  Big thumbs up

Jetguy
 
m717
Posts: 540
Joined: Tue Dec 31, 2002 1:01 pm

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sun Jun 15, 2003 1:30 am

"It plain makes no sense to say that an aircraft is on "finals".

You're right, it makes no sense, but you are also right in that you see it all the time here. I was going to say something, but thought...nah.

Now, does anyone want to tackle "headsets". Like in, "have you seen my headsets?". It's a headset. Singular. One headset.
 
Guest

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sun Jun 15, 2003 3:43 am

Friends -
"Finals" is common way to call the "final approach" in UK aviation vocabulary, there are differences on US-Canada English language...
Many differences, in example "overshoot" in UK is "go-around" in USA...
(s) Skipper
 
s.p.a.s.
Posts: 916
Joined: Sun Mar 11, 2001 2:04 pm

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sun Jun 15, 2003 5:59 am

[...]UK aviation vocabulary, there are differences on US-Canada English language[...]

Landing gear x undercarriage
after burner x reheat
and so on...

RS


"ad astra per aspera"
 
ThirtyEcho
Posts: 1409
Joined: Tue Jan 01, 2002 1:21 am

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Sun Jun 15, 2003 4:14 pm

Clearly, there are differences. It might be fun to have a UK CFI chime in here about this but I doubt that you're ever going to hear "Cessna 123, extend your downwinds to follow the Citation on long finals for 31L," or "Citation 123, best speed on finals, traffic is a Cessna turning wide bases for 31L". Not in my headsets; no siree.

And that Citation better fly some fast finals and expedite his turnoffs.
 
Guest

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Mon Jun 16, 2003 6:36 am

Dear friends from around the world -
xxx
Lets try to allow leniency for regional differences of the English language, as spoken in USA, or UK, or anywhere else in the world, and let us not forget that some among us use English as a second language... spelling also may differ between USA and UK...
xxx
When I answer some specific posting from a friend here, I try (as I can) to word it so that he and I understand each other (looking where he is from) - using when I know, the English as it may be spoken by ATC there...
xxx
Maybe some do not understand "line up and wait" but are accustomed to hear "position and hold"... who cares really... the question is not "who is correct" - at least in this Tech.Ops forum, we seldom have fights, and the majority of you are extremely friendly and respectful with each other...
xxx
Happy contrails, always -  Big grin
(s) Skipper
 
411A
Posts: 1788
Joined: Mon Nov 12, 2001 10:34 am

RE: Flap Settings/Landing Gear

Mon Jun 16, 2003 7:18 am

Skipper has many valid points. Those that are so pedantic really do show their ignorance about aviation matters.
Have flown in the middle east for many years, where many of the ATC folks are from the UK (and USA) and when I say..."standing by for airways clearance"...they know exactly what I want, an IFR clearance. Likewise..."report on extended finals"...a common term.

Flying into LAX several years ago, reported to Socal..."by the old Hollywood fan marker"...and the old bird on ATC knew exactly where I was...told me to turn base at..."the big tank"...a well known point from yesteryear.

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